25 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

DA:O introduced the AI tactics screen, which allowed you to create set behavioural paths for your companions.

But ME2 allow you to control the rest of the party, beyond some basic squadmate orders. In DA:O you could avoid real-time combat, but ME2 is all about the frantic shooter pace. I think the tactical depth of combat could be greatly improved if we had some rudementary scripting abilities for our companions.

For example, with Garrus, you could have something like:

If enemy is using a heavy weapon behind cover: use sniper rifle
If enemy is charging from cover: use concussive shot + AR
If enemy has 2+ protection: prioritize target

Technically, you can do all this via ordering squadmates, but the advantage of this is a more fluid real-time experience.

Thoughts? Counter-arguments?

ETA: Added a poll

social.bioware.com/59861/polls/21442/

Modifié par In Exile, 22 juin 2011 - 06:07 .

[RoboticWater]

I think Bioware would like to keep special parts of their games separate or it might detract from the value. Also tactics are better when you have many more powers than ME2 or it would be near pointless

[Paul Sedgmore]

It would be nice to be able to tailor AI behaviour

[Eurhetemec]

BlahDog wrote...

I think Bioware would like to keep special parts of their games separate or it might detract from the value. Also tactics are better when you have many more powers than ME2 or it would be near pointless

I totally disagree.

It would be idiotic behaviour of a game company to keep elements artificially separate if they would improve both games, frankly, because that's tantamount to willfully damaging both games. It's that kind of thinking that was used to try to argue that DA2 shouldn't have a dialogue wheel or a speaking player-character, when it (for my money) clearly improved the game.

In this particular case, ME would be a lot more fun to play as an action/RPG game, if you could configure squadmates to behave in more useful ways, and to use their powers more intelligently. Instead of having to "do their thinking for them", and effectively work as their AI yourself, despite them having a potentially competent one, (as you must do in ME2 in higher difficulties), you could actually play the game and trust them to make sound decisions.

This is going to be particularly important in ME3, as squadmates will now all have at least one extra power (and these look to be active powers, meaning that many squadmates will have three or more active powers (if Mordin got another extra power, he'd have four, for example), and three is already too many to properly use with the hot-keys in the PC version if both squadmates have it and the player has a 4+ active powers as well (and virtually all player classes have 4+ active powers).

So what I'm stating explicitly here, is that ME3 will have too many powers to manage via hotkeys, period. Thus if they don't want to turn it into a "pause-fest", they will need to allow us to configure some kind of tactics for the party members.

Personally I'd like them to keep it fairly simple, not going into the heavy detail that the DA games had (as that's not really necessary), but it'd be nice to tell squadmembers to always seek cover if their shield is down, for example, instead of playing "Dodge the rocket" (as Miranda in ME2 loooooooves to do), and to use AoE powers whenever there are multiple targets in the area.

Also, whether they add tactics or not, I seriously hope squadmates use their ammo powers a bit more intelligently this time around.

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 22 juin 2011 - 05:19 .

[onelifecrisis]

In Exile wrote...

DA:O introduced the AI tactics screen, which allowed you to create set behavioural paths for your companions.

But ME2 allow you to control the rest of the party, beyond some basic squadmate orders. In DA:O you could avoid real-time combat, but ME2 is all about the frantic shooter pace. I think the tactical depth of combat could be greatly improved if we had some rudementary scripting abilities for our companions.

For example, with Garrus, you could have something like:

If enemy is using a heavy weapon behind cover: use sniper rifle
If enemy is charging from cover: use concussive shot + AR
If enemy has 2+ protection: prioritize target

Technically, you can do all this via ordering squadmates, but the advantage of this is a more fluid real-time experience.

Thoughts? Counter-arguments?

Non-issue. I already have the ability to give real-time orders to squadmates via keyboard shortcuts. I never pause during combat.

[ShadowLordXXX]

Yeh I was just thinking this would be EXTREMELY useful. This would help to be able to keep some character from behaving like idiots(People with shotguns tended to get far too close to enemies even when they were primarily casters or they wouldnt stay down once their shields were fried etc) and it would be really nice to be able to set up squad tactics so they would use their powers intelligently and not at random.

Also a general improvement to your companions AI so they wouldn't take cover behind an EXPLOSIVE CRATE would be nice too

Modifié par ShadowLordXXX, 22 juin 2011 - 05:56 .

[In Exile]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...
Also a general improvement to your companions AI so they wouldn't take cover behind an EXPLOSIVE CRATE would be nice too

I would think this is something you could potentially script if they let us (e.g. what kind of cover to use based on weapons, dmg etc.).

[vader da slayer]

or you could just you know hit the left bumper and tell the squad mate to switch to sniper and at the same time have just him target the heavy weapons guy. DA:O and ME1/2/3's combat are completely different in both how you control the combat and the characters. In DA:O in order to switch a party members weapons or tell them to use a spell or who to target you have to be actively controling them. where as in ME you just hit the left bumper to select anyones weapons or the right to select what ability they should use. targeting is as easy as hitting left on the d-pad for the person to you left (as shown under the shield/health bar) and right for the right person while aim your cross hairs at the target. if you want both to target the same one you just hit up on the d-pad.

ME's squadmate control is setup so that it completely negates the need (and reason behind DA:O's tatics screen) for a squadmate tactics screen. you need it in DA:O so that you aren't have to constantly pause and switch to other squadmates in order to control them. its there to keep the game from being a hassle and a pain to play while ME is setup to completely not need the system at all. anything you want a tactics screen to do is easily done in under a couple seconds by you and only about half the time does it require a pause with using the power wheel (and even then a very short pause).

[In Exile]

vader da slayer wrote...
where as in ME you just hit the left bumper to select anyones weapons or the right to select what ability they should use. targeting is as easy as hitting left on the d-pad for the person to you left (as shown under the shield/health bar) and right for the right person while aim your cross hairs at the target. if you want both to target the same one you just hit up on the d-pad.

It doesn't work like this on PC. It's not about targeting. It's about them dynamically switching weapons to take advantage of the armour/barries/shields on insanity (for example) without you having to order them to switch weapons by pausing the game or using hotkeys.

anything you want a tactics screen to do is easily done in under a couple seconds by you and only about half the time does it require a pause with using the power wheel (and even then a very short pause).

The whole point is to avoid a pause. What I want to do is avoid pausing. 

[Lumikki]

Not sure, I never needed much squad members tactics in ME serie. I ques it would not hurt to have little bit saying in how they do combat. But it's not big deal for me, they seem to do most the time just fine.

I play mostly in Veteran or Hardcore difficulty.
I don't like Insanity difficulty, it's little bit too unrealistic.
It's about balance as fun between too easy or too painful.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[In Exile]

I suppose it depends on the difficulty you play at, too.

[Smeelia]

It might be a useful addition, particularly for those that like to keep combat going and not pause too often.  I don't really feel that it's essential or anything but I wouldn't complain about getting the options (you could always turn them off and still use the manual controls anyway).

[RoboticWater]

Eurhetemec wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

I think Bioware would like to keep special parts of their games separate or it might detract from the value. Also tactics are better when you have many more powers than ME2 or it would be near pointless

I totally disagree.

It would be idiotic behaviour of a game company to keep elements artificially separate if they would improve both games, frankly, because that's tantamount to willfully damaging both games. It's that kind of thinking that was used to try to argue that DA2 shouldn't have a dialogue wheel or a speaking player-character, when it (for my money) clearly improved the game.

In this particular case, ME would be a lot more fun to play as an action/RPG game, if you could configure squadmates to behave in more useful ways, and to use their powers more intelligently. Instead of having to "do their thinking for them", and effectively work as their AI yourself, despite them having a potentially competent one, (as you must do in ME2 in higher difficulties), you could actually play the game and trust them to make sound decisions.

This is going to be particularly important in ME3, as squadmates will now all have at least one extra power (and these look to be active powers, meaning that many squadmates will have three or more active powers (if Mordin got another extra power, he'd have four, for example), and three is already too many to properly use with the hot-keys in the PC version if both squadmates have it and the player has a 4+ active powers as well (and virtually all player classes have 4+ active powers).

So what I'm stating explicitly here, is that ME3 will have too many powers to manage via hotkeys, period. Thus if they don't want to turn it into a "pause-fest", they will need to allow us to configure some kind of tactics for the party members.

Personally I'd like them to keep it fairly simple, not going into the heavy detail that the DA games had (as that's not really necessary), but it'd be nice to tell squadmembers to always seek cover if their shield is down, for example, instead of playing "Dodge the rocket" (as Miranda in ME2 loooooooves to do), and to use AoE powers whenever there are multiple targets in the area.

Also, whether they add tactics or not, I seriously hope squadmates use their ammo powers a bit more intelligently this time around.

What would happen if squadmate uses a power like barrier for themselves? You would have to wait for the entire cooldown to get another one that may be vital to you. Also in DA:O you can switch between squadmates putting the emphasis on the team as a whole, in ME though it is all about you and as an adept i can definitiyely say that using your squads powers yourself is much better than them doing it. What I mean is if I have a singularity out with three people in in it and you set Miranda up to take out peoples sheilds out whenever possible (important for adepts) she will not warp the singularity and kil the 3 people but hit the guy in the corner with the sheild. Considering this is a cover based game, you team mates sholud always have cover and if they don't it is a matter of bad team AI. As well as that I use an xbox, so I have to use the power wheel, but I think that is better because instead of rapidly shooting out powers I slowly and tacticly take out the enemy. Lastly there is no smart way to use ammo powers; it is just turn it on at the beginning of the level and leave it off if you dont.  

But I think everyone should rejoyce because Bioware said that AI are getting better so there should be less sutpid stuff happening. 

Modifié par BlahDog, 22 juin 2011 - 07:20 .

[In Exile]

Well, you could disable squad powers (I do that) but it means using them yourself, which essentially is + pause & play instead of - pause & play.

Don't get me wrong - I usually love pause, and in DA:O I have never used tactics. It's just that in ME, you can't control the rest of the party.

[Sidney]

Just better AI would make a huge difference. I mean not having Miranda standing ON the cover as opposed to behind it would have saved a lot of unpleasant moments. That said, the AI was usually pretty good about using powers and since some powers won't work on certain types of foes they use the "right" powers for the scenario,

I'd never be opposed to a tactics screen but I didn't feel as big a need in ME as I did I DA.

[Kronner]

I don't really care as long as my realtime commands still have priority over pre-set tactics.

Modifié par Kronner, 22 juin 2011 - 07:27 .

[AntiChri5]

I think that a tactics screen would add for more to ME then it ever did to DA.

[RoboticWater]

In Exile wrote...

Well, you could disable squad powers (I do that) but it means using them yourself, which essentially is + pause & play instead of - pause & play.

Don't get me wrong - I usually love pause, and in DA:O I have never used tactics. It's just that in ME, you can't control the rest of the party.

In DA the reason you can switch is because they are actually equal to you in amount of powers and damage, it is pointless in ME because they have half as many powers and abilities. Also if you could switch in ME it would take away from the chalenge; lets say you are a vanguard and you charge in to the enemy guns blazing, you will probably take out a half or more, if you could switch your remaining squad would have an easy timetaking on the rest.

[In Exile]

BlahDog wrote...
In DA the reason you can switch is because they are actually equal to you in amount of powers and damage, it is pointless in ME because they have half as many powers and abilities.

Well, no. The reason you can switch is the genre. And it's only in ME2 that squadmates were nerfed.

Also if you could switch in ME it would take away from the chalenge; lets say you are a vanguard and you charge in to the enemy guns blazing, you will probably take out a half or more, if you could switch your remaining squad would have an easy timetaking on the rest.

That's just bad encounter design.

[Eurhetemec]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Non-issue. I already have the ability to give real-time orders to squadmates via keyboard shortcuts. I never pause during combat.

I know math is hard, but you'll find that ME3 that's no longer possible.

Why? Because Shepard, and most squadmembers, now have an extra power.

You have 10 quick-power slots.

If Shepard is, say, an Infiltrator, he'll have Cloak + Incinerate + AI Hacking + Bonus Power + New Power. That 5 right there.

Add in a squad-member who previous had 2 active powers. He now has 3. Another squad member who previously had 3, and he now has 4.

What's 5 + 3 + 4.

12.

On your 10 buttons.

And that's with zero buttons for Ammo powers, and no Unity button. It's not the worst-case scenario, either.

@BlahDog - No intelligent way to use ammo powers? Are you kidding? Tell me you're kidding. I guess you've never played a Soldier.

[Malanek]

ME is designed so you can control you entire squad in real time. It's an action game rather than DA which is a strategy game. It depends how they worked but I'm not sure how much I would use them.

I would like to be able to create a set of rules over what power they would use on the Q and E keys in different situations. For example if an enemy is down to health and you just tell Mordin to target it, it could result in either a incinerate or a cyroblast when 9 times out of 10 I want a cyroblast. I would simply like to be able to set this.

But I don't really like the idea of having the AI run your squad, I enjoy activating the powers exactly when I want to activate the powers so I would not use any tactics like Enemy shields >= 50% -> Overload. Personally that would significantly detract from the game for me. I don't mind them doing things for other players but it would depend how much work it was. If relatively easy, sure. If it was going to chew up a lot of time I would rather they work on other things.

[Malanek]

Eurhetemec wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Non-issue. I already have the ability to give real-time orders to squadmates via keyboard shortcuts. I never pause during combat.

I know math is hard, but you'll find that ME3 that's no longer possible.

Why? Because Shepard, and most squadmembers, now have an extra power.

You have 10 quick-power slots.

If Shepard is, say, an Infiltrator, he'll have Cloak + Incinerate + AI Hacking + Bonus Power + New Power. That 5 right there.

Add in a squad-member who previous had 2 active powers. He now has 3. Another squad member who previously had 3, and he now has 4.

What's 5 + 3 + 4.

12.

On your 10 buttons.

And that's with zero buttons for Ammo powers, and no Unity button. It's not the worst-case scenario, either.

Not possible??? This has got to be one of the worst posts I've ever read. If its not possible they have ruined the game for me. Of course it will be possible. I can basically guraentee it. I suggest you try using the Q and E keys.

[In Exile]

Malanek999 wrote...

ME is designed so you can control you entire squad in real time. It's an action game rather than DA which is a strategy game. It depends how they worked but I'm not sure how much I would use them.

I always paused & played in DA with all tactics disabled, though, because I could control the actions of my NPCs exactly.

I would like to be able to create a set of rules over what power they would use on the Q and E keys in different situations. For example if an enemy is down to health and you just tell Mordin to target it, it could result in either a incinerate or a cyroblast when 9 times out of 10 I want a cyroblast. I would simply like to be able to set this.

That would be a step forward. I'd like keybindings for Shepard too, for last power used.

But I don't really like the idea of having the AI run your squad, I enjoy activating the powers exactly when I want to activate the powers so I would not use any tactics like Enemy shields >= 50% -> Overload. Personally that would significantly detract from the game for me. I don't mind them doing things for other players but it would depend how much work it was. If relatively easy, sure. If it was going to chew up a lot of time I would rather they work on other things.

Meh, I think this is a pipe dream of mine. I just don't like the way the squad commands are currently set up, because I find the entire interface very clunky.

[Paxos]

Although I believe an "AI Tactics Screen" wouldn't fit ME (ME goes for a macro rather than micro type of gameplay), it would be nice to see each character given an AI set of tactics that's default to that character, to bring out the differences in personality/values.

[Sailears]

Malanek999 wrote...

ME is designed so you can control you entire squad in real time. It's an action game rather than DA which is a strategy game. It depends how they worked but I'm not sure how much I would use them.

I would like to be able to create a set of rules over what power they would use on the Q and E keys in different situations. For example if an enemy is down to health and you just tell Mordin to target it, it could result in either a incinerate or a cyroblast when 9 times out of 10 I want a cyroblast. I would simply like to be able to set this.

But I don't really like the idea of having the AI run your squad, I enjoy activating the powers exactly when I want to activate the powers so I would not use any tactics like Enemy shields >= 50% -> Overload. Personally that would significantly detract from the game for me. I don't mind them doing things for other players but it would depend how much work it was. If relatively easy, sure. If it was going to chew up a lot of time I would rather they work on other things.

I agree with this.

What I can see of benefit is being able to have greater control of what powers the squad will use with the "Q and E" keys (the "order squadmate 1/ order squadmate 2").
It's good at the moment - concussive shot will only be used if an enemy is down to health, for example.
But say a squadmate has pull, throw and singularity - would be nice to set which is defaulted to for different scenarios with the ordering keys.

Of course, this can all be done automatically behind the scenes (for the most part), so not really necessary.

The other thing would be for an extra 2 power hotkeys for PC users.