38 réponses à ce sujet

[BelgarathMTH]

Hi, I almost started my new BG2 game with either a Skald or a Chanter, but I decided to go with fighter-mage, because I just didn't think a bard would be powerful enough when limited to sixth level spells, one attack per round, and second worst THAC0 in the game, to go all the way to ToB without getting frustrating to play.

I think I might have decided in favor of bardsong (over high-level spells and attack bonuses) if it were implemented like in NWN, where you can cast a bardsong effect with a level-based and/or feat-based duration and then attack; however, since you cannot benefit from bardsong in BG unless you as a bard sing and do nothing else, I decided that bardsong was going to wind up being more a hindrance than a help.

(Constantly having to separate my bard out of the selection grid before giving a general attack order, always worrying about keeping the party in close enough formation to stay under the song's protections, etc.)

And then, fully developed fighter-mages are just so darn powerful! I really don't want my PC to be a weak, useless type.

Someone mentioned in another thread that they thought there were pluses and minuses that would in some cases make them choose a bard over a fighter-mage.

I am very interested in other player's opinions about this issue.

[Grond0]

Will partly depend on whether you want to play solo or not. I agree that the bard song is limiting as a solo player, although I've still found the Skald song can be effective (as it lasts a little time after you stop singing). However, in a group game you may well want to keep your PC out of the worst danger. Giving your PC the ability to help everyone else through song is actually pretty powerful, with the spells and extra high level abilities (such as spike trap) being the icing on the cake.

[Windfoot]

Most people who play bards use the blade kit. And specifically they use offensive spin.

Think of offensive spin as the special ability of a Berserker (+2 hit/damage but no protections), a kensai (max damage) with a haste added in (+1 attack and improved movement speed) for 24 seconds. Heck, a Kensai's kai only lasts 10 seconds. Then add in all the defenses possible from a mage. Heck you can even use Tenser's Transformation for more melee THAC0.

A bard is considered a thief so he/she has access to the thief High Level Abilities (HLAs)...specifically "use any item" and spike/exploding/time trap. To the best of knowledge, the bard sets the HLA traps as though he has 100 skill in set traps. A bard will use invis/improved invis with a cloak of non-detection instead of the thief's stealth. There are also alot of cool things you can do when you can use any item in the game.

Another aspect of a bard is he levels really fast like a thief does. So the spells he casts that are level dependant will be more powerful than a mage at the same exp level (though the mage will have access to higher level and more spells)

A bard is very dependant upon his items so be sure to give him good equipment.

[Reticent]

First let me say that for simplicity's sake I'm going to consider this comparison from the point of view of a multi-class Fighter/Mage, but many of these points still apply in varying degrees to dual-class builds.  Also, I'm very hungry at the moment so this might not be the most cogent post ever.  Bear with me.

The Mage has superior spell access at a given character level than does the Bard, both in terms of level and in terms spells per day.  However, the Mage levels more slowly, and this is doubly true for the Fighter-Mage.  In fact if we consider the rather significant break point of just over 3 million XP (the time HLA's start to become available) a F/M has a Mage level of 14 compared to the Bard's level of 24, a 10 level difference!  This has several implications.  First, it means for every caster level based aspect of a spell (such as damage dice, duration, or chance of a Dispel working) the Bard's spells are vastly more effective on a per particular spell basis.  Second, level 14 is the first level Mages have access to level 7 spells.  In other words the F/M has had no advantage in spell access up until this point, and has often had it worse than the Bard simply due to relative level.

The Bard also has several unlimited use spell-like abilities that do no require memorization slots.  Most obvious in this regard is bardsong.  The assorted Bard kits have slightly different song effects, but generally each is worthwhile in the appropriate context.  Bardsong means the Bard never truly runs out of "spells" in combat.  The Bard could be considered the more effective summoner for all summoning spells up to level 6 because their summons will have the additional benefit of the song.  The Bard also has such a substantial Lore skill that it equates essentially to infinite Identify spells.  Bardsong and Lore combine to make the Bard more efficient than the F/M during any stretch inbetween difficult encounters when you are trying to conserve spells.  The Bard has Pickpocket, which while certainly not the most important skill in the game does grant the Bard a significant potential economic advantage, espeically early on.  Also, the Bard has access to several Bard-only magic items (usually musical instrument themed) that have significant spell-like effects.

The F/M will generally have the superior THAC0 and attacks per round and is in most instances the more efficient melee damage dealer, and this is especially true once access to Fighter HLA's open up (there is a special case exception to this where the Bard kit "Blade" has the Offensive Spin special ability and might be considered the F/M's equal).  The F/M eventually does have the superior access to spells, but the Bard has the ability to cast those same spells from scrolls in the event that it is truly needed.  The F/M has the advantage of using the best saving throw from either class so is probably better than the Bard in that regard.  HLA's are probably pretty balanced on the whole between the Bard and the F/M, though the Bard's Use Any Item probably opens up the most potential shenanigans to the player.

[ussnorway]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Hi, I almost started my new BG2 game with either a Skald or a Chanter, but I decided to go with fighter-mage, because I just didn't think a bard would be powerful enough when limited to sixth level spells, one attack per round, and second worst THAC0 in the game, to go all the way to ToB without getting frustrating to play.

This is a fair comment for those bards but as others have said, when it comes to melee the blade kit will blow your fighter-mage multi out of the water.
Ask yourself what play style you want by the time you get to TOB?

For high level spells with some early combat ability = the fighter- wizard dual class. This human gets the weapons/ hit points early then goes mage but don’t make the mistake of waiting two long to dual… few kits are worth much more than level 6 to a wizard.

By contrast the blade will FEEL slow for the pre-teens because he lacks the head starting THAC0 of the fighter but will quickly pull ahead because of his fast level requirements… by TOB he should have more hit points simply because of his level.

The blade/bard also has magic flute for 3 delayed fireballs… save them up and you can get 3 flutes at once & in no-reload it’s worth taking ‘improved bard song’ especially for the blade with access to simulacrum.

[Sparky The Barbarian]

For me the Blade is more challenging at lower levels, but also a lot more fun. With TOB the Blade gets a real trump card, access to the rogues HLA's namely Spike Traps. The only HLA's I use are Spike Trap, Magic Flute, and Use Any Item.

[kenng]

FYI, people have soloed with a bard on insane no reload and literally breezed through the game. So it is far from weak, especially once you get UAI.

[Reticent]

If I were going to do a Skald, I'd focus on summons to maximize the EXCELLENT effects of the Skald's song, and I'd focus on high rate of fire ranged weapons (darts, throwing daggers, short bows, Light Crossbow of Speed) to get the best use out of the THAC0 and damage bonus.

[Shadow_Leech07]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Hi, I almost started my new BG2 game with either a Skald or a Chanter, but I decided to go with fighter-mage, because I just didn't think a bard would be powerful enough when limited to sixth level spells, one attack per round, and second worst THAC0 in the game, to go all the way to ToB without getting frustrating to play.

I think I might have decided in favor of bardsong (over high-level spells and attack bonuses) if it were implemented like in NWN, where you can cast a bardsong effect with a level-based and/or feat-based duration and then attack; however, since you cannot benefit from bardsong in BG unless you as a bard sing and do nothing else, I decided that bardsong was going to wind up being more a hindrance than a help.

(Constantly having to separate my bard out of the selection grid before giving a general attack order, always worrying about keeping the party in close enough formation to stay under the song's protections, etc.)

And then, fully developed fighter-mages are just so darn powerful! I really don't want my PC to be a weak, useless type.

Someone mentioned in another thread that they thought there were pluses and minuses that would in some cases make them choose a bard over a fighter-mage.

I am very interested in other player's opinions about this issue.

If this is a discussion between power levels, the fighter/mage multiclass is clearly stronger in most if not every area at least in a solo game. In the early game, the fighter/mage essentially has the thaco of a fighter and can cast protective buffs to boot and then shove on full plate. The bard can at best use chainmail and has lower HP.

As for the midlevels, it's tough to say but I still say the F/M gets the edge here. Endgame we have the bard with UAI and spike traps, and the F/M has Improved Alacrity, GWW,  and Critical Strike. F/M has level nine spells like chain contingency(bard can cast from scroll of course but F/M can constantly use it). Clearly the F/M wins this match as well, again all my opinion but I consider the F/M to be one of the strongest if not most powerful class in Baldur's Gate...

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 23 juin 2011 - 06:42 .

[kenng]

Bear in mind the bard will lv much faster than a fighter/mage multi, meaning the bard will enjoy a better caster lv early on. This means caster-lv dependent spells like skull trap and animate dead have better effect. A Skald's bardsong + 4 greater skeletons can be a very scary thing!

[Reticent]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

If this is a discussion between power levels, the fighter/mage multiclass is clearly stronger in most if not every area at least in a solo game. In the early game, the fighter/mage essentially has the thaco of a fighter and can cast protective buffs to boot and then shove on full plate. The bard can at best use chainmail and has lower HP.

As for the midlevels, it's tough to say but I still say the F/M gets the edge here. Endgame we have the bard with UAI and spike traps, and the F/M has Improved Alacrity, GWW,  and Critical Strike. F/M has level nine spells like chain contingency(bard can cast from scroll of course but F/M can constantly use it). Clearly the F/M wins this match as well, again all my opinion but I consider the F/M to be one of the strongest if not most powerful class in Baldur's Gate...

As said above, the level difference really becomes vast though at the same XP. 

At the original SoA XP cap of 2.95 million the F/M is level 13/13 and casts up to level 6 spells as a 13th level caster.

The Bard is level 23 and casts up to level 6 spells as a 20th level caster (for a normal install where spells stop scaling at 20).

For every spell that scales with level the Bard is a vastly more powerful caster than the F/M.  The F/M doesn't become a level 20 caster until 7.5 million XP!  The Bard has access to spell level 9-like effects through HLA traps right around the time the F/M is just getting access to level 7 spells.

The F/M usually is the more effective fighter with better THAC0 and 1.5 more attacks per round (assuming fighter level 13+ and weapon specialization), but even then one can point to examples like a Blade using Tenser's Transformation and Offensive Spin to attack for maximum damage as a hasted level ~22+ Fighter equivalent.

Modifié par Reticent, 23 juin 2011 - 01:16 .

[Reticent]

*accidental double post*

Modifié par Reticent, 23 juin 2011 - 01:12 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Reticent wrote...
As said above, the level difference really becomes vast though at the same XP. 

At the original SoA XP cap of 2.95 million the F/M is level 13/13 and casts up to level 6 spells as a 13th level caster.

The Bard is level 23 and casts up to level 6 spells as a 20th level caster (for a normal install where spells stop scaling at 20).

For every spell that scales with level the Bard is a vastly more powerful caster than the F/M.  The F/M doesn't become a level 20 caster until 7.5 million XP!  The Bard has access to spell level 9-like effects through HLA traps right around the time the F/M is just getting access to level 7 spells.

The F/M usually is the more effective fighter with better THAC0 and 1.5 more attacks per round (assuming fighter level 13+ and weapon specialization), but even then one can point to examples like a Blade using Tenser's Transformation and Offensive Spin to attack for maximum damage as a hasted level ~22+ Fighter equivalent.

You're assuming the thaco part is not relevant. But it is. A F/M can polymorph into a spider with better thaco. In fact all polymorphed forms get better thaco, and this is relevant in my opinion. A bard on the other hand is stuck with what I'm guessing is thief thaco.

An extra 1.5 attack goes a long way, especially with improved haste, and couple that with critical strike, that's probably nine APR where every hit counts, and if the enemy doesn't have protection against critical strikes? Too bad for the enemy.

Traps are difficult to use in close encounters, where a F/M can use his fighter HLAs. You also talk about the importance of spell levels, could you tell me which spells you had in mind which this pertains?

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 23 juin 2011 - 01:35 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Wow, this is a fantastic response to my questions. Thanks, everybody!

That point about the faster level advancement and the thought of maybe using traps in dragon and mage battles is making me reconsider my decision.

But Shadow Leech makes a lot of good counterpoints. I like the idea of being able to lead my party from the front, and not having to be afraid to go toe-to-toe with the enemy.

I have a lot of thinking to do.

[Reticent]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

You're assuming the thaco part is not relevant. But it is. A F/M can polymorph into a spider with better thaco. In fact all polymorphed forms get better thaco, and this is relevant in my opinion. A bard on the other hand is stuck with what I'm guessing is thief thaco.

An extra 1.5 attack goes a long way, especially with improved haste, and couple that with critical strike, that's probably nine APR where every hit counts, and if the enemy doesn't have protection against critical strikes? Too bad for the enemy.

Traps are difficult to use in close encounters, where a F/M can use his fighter HLAs. You also talk about the importance of spell levels, could you tell me which spells you had in mind which this pertains?

Actually I quite agree with you that it is relevant, I just glossed over it a bit as I feel Bards need more defending than F/Ms do because the Bard can look so much worse in theory than it really is in practice.  There are tactics where the F/M is going to be more effective with fewer resources expended (like your polymorph example) and there are tactics the F/M will access that the Bard never will (such as Greater Whirlwind + Black Blade of Disaster).

Most spells have some aspect where caster level is relevant (even if sometimes it only affects duration).  That said, some of the spells that stand out to me offhand are:  Dispell Magic, Remove Magic, Stoneskins, Melf's Minute Meteors, Skull Trap, Tenser's Transformation, Lower Resistance, Pierce Magic (the reduction to magic resistances lasts 1 round per caster level), Improved Haste (duration), Animate Dead (Skeleton Warriors at caster level 15), etc.

I'm not trying to argue that the Bard is strictly more powerful than the F/M.  I'm just saying that the actual power level is very close with both characters enjoying the advantage in specific contexts.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Reticent wrote...
Actually I quite agree with you that it is relevant, I just glossed over it a bit as I feel Bards need more defending than F/Ms do because the Bard can look so much worse in theory than it really is in practice.  There are tactics where the F/M is going to be more effective with fewer resources expended (like your polymorph example) and there are tactics the F/M will access that the Bard never will (such as Greater Whirlwind + Black Blade of Disaster).

Most spells have some aspect where caster level is relevant (even if sometimes it only affects duration).  That said, some of the spells that stand out to me offhand are:  Dispell Magic, Remove Magic, Stoneskins, Melf's Minute Meteors, Skull Trap, Tenser's Transformation, Lower Resistance, Pierce Magic (the reduction to magic resistances lasts 1 round per caster level), Improved Haste (duration), Animate Dead (Skeleton Warriors at caster level 15), etc.

I'm not trying to argue that the Bard is strictly more powerful than the F/M.  I'm just saying that the actual power level is very close with both characters enjoying the advantage in specific contexts.

You mention fewer resources expended, and that's my entire point. The F/M requires fewer resources to achieve a goal, hence it wins in a battle of attrition which consequently most of the major battles in the game tend to lead to.

Alot of the spells you mention that depend on spell level are capped, and by the end of the game, once again the battle of attrition comes into play. And in other instances, I don't see the F/M really using spells like lower resistance, tenser's transformation, or even skull trap when F/Ms can simply bop enemies over the head. And this is the key point, and why I consider F/Ms dominant, is because they shore up both weaknesses of the mage and fighter(and similar classes). The fighter class is solid but has several glaring flaws which needed to be compensated with potions and items, and the mage class...while very explosive, cannot keep up the momentum, the reason why mages have to resort to the spell trap+infinite spells combo or wishing(aka cheese) to keep up with attrition(endgame wise). Essentially the F/M resolves most of these issues. Again just my perspective, and perhaps my play style tends to encourage this kind of thing. I no longer like to play classes whose spells aren't worth much anything in Ascension without resorting to crazy tactics.

Do I think the bard is a bad class? No, of course not. But it's a fine line between placing it in the same league as a F/M.

[AnonymousHero]

Reticent wrote...
Most spells have some aspect where caster level is relevant (even if sometimes it only affects duration).  That said, some of the spells that stand out to me offhand are:  Dispell Magic, Remove Magic, Stoneskins, Melf's Minute Meteors, Skull Trap, Tenser's Transformation, Lower Resistance, Pierce Magic (the reduction to magic resistances lasts 1 round per caster level), Improved Haste (duration), Animate Dead (Skeleton Warriors at caster level 15), etc.

From that list only Dispel Magic and Remove Magic actually get more powerful/longer duration past level 20. I've soloed both F/Ms and Blades through BG1/BG2, and IME about the only the the Blade has over the F/M is the better Remove Magic. For all the other spells (maybe except Animate Dead) , the slightly better damage/duration doesn't actually matter since you kill everything so quickly anyway.

[Grond0]

I agree that the level spells are cast at will not give a huge advantage to the bard, but the better character will depend upon the role you want them to play.  If you want a sole character it's hard to beat the F/M, but in a group the bard can be a huge asset.  Take the example of the skald kit.  At level 20 it adds +4 to hit and +4 damage to every attack.  Also -4 on AC and immunity to fear and stun.  Say there are 5 other members in the party + 5 summons (and there are plenty of ways to get more than this).  Those 10 members will probably have a minimum of 20 attacks in a round if buffed for a serious fight and, depending on the composition of the party, could easily have 50 or more.  The added damage from the bard then looks pretty attractive, even before considering the defensive benefits.  Admittedly some of this will be wasted against stoneskins etc, but I still think a bard can probably make more of a contribution to a party overall than the F/M. 

Just harking back to the point about resource use the bard can of course sing as often as he wants. 

Depending on your play style you may also use scripts.  These would also favour the bard as it is much easier to script independently (essentially just sing if not specifically ordered to do anything else).

[Reticent]

Again, absolutely a question of context.

7.5 million XP solo at the end of Ascension? F/M is probably the more powerful character. 2.95 million XP solo or a group at the end of SoA? I like the Bard in that circumstance (I think the caster level difference actually counts for a great deal during this range of game play). Heck, I also prefer the Bard at 1.5 million alone in the Underdark but like the F/M better straight out the door of Candlekeep.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Reticent wrote...

Again, absolutely a question of context.

7.5 million XP solo at the end of Ascension? F/M is probably the more powerful character. 2.95 million XP solo or a group at the end of SoA? I like the Bard in that circumstance (I think the caster level difference actually counts for a great deal during this range of game play). Heck, I also prefer the Bard at 1.5 million alone in the Underdark but like the F/M better straight out the door of Candlekeep.

When you're soloing, which was my original context I inferred, one usually caps out at the end of the Underdark(ToB cap). So by the end parts of SoA and all throughout Throne of Bhaal, you will be playing with a maxed out F/M.

But to each his own. If the bard fits your play style I'm happy for you.

[The Potty 1]

I ran a bard-only group, and it was the strongest group I've ever played. A blade PC along with haer-dalis as frontline, backed by Korgan the skald, Jan & Keto the vanilla bards, and Kido the jester.

Mods were the bard song fixes from rogue rebalancing, Level1NPC to do NPC changes, and SCS2 for tactical challenge. Obviously also Keto & Kido, although I wouldn't recommend Kido unless you want to play pretty evil.

EDIT regarding tactics, I'd lead into most fights with a greater malison, followed by glitterdust or two, and 3-4 fireballs, or regional equivalent. Getting 6 spells off in the first round is brilliant, and if you back them up with the saves and bonuses fron the skald and vanillas, plus confusion from the jester, most fights became trivial.

Modifié par The Potty 1, 24 juin 2011 - 07:50 .

[saros_shadow_follower]

A Blade is like a midrange F/M/T. He gets some of the fighter bonuses, but not the most important ones, which are the fighter HLAs and APRs. THAC0 at least in vanilla or slightly modded is irrelevant - can be boosted with Heroism potions and other items if need be. A Blade gets the most important Thief abilities, which are the HLAs, and especially UAI. And finally, the Blade is a midrange mage, lacking the powerful 9th level spells, most importantly Improved Alacrity.

Power-wise, the Blade is far weaker than a F/M of any kind, not even speaking of the top F/M - the gnome F/I. Exception - if you're playing a mod which favours bards in particular with a powerful item or ability. For example, in IA 5.0 there was an armor granting +2 spell slots to the blade + permanent Improved Alacrity, which made a Blade equally powerful, maybe in more situations even much more powerful than a F/M.

A Blade is much more difficult to navigate than a F/M, that's for sure.

BTW, neither a Blade nor a F/M should wear something like a 'full plate'. Stick to Vecna!

Modifié par saros_shadow_follower, 24 juin 2011 - 03:23 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

saros_shadow_follower wrote...


BTW, neither a Blade nor a F/M should wear something like a 'full plate'. Stick to Vecna!

If this was a vague reference to a comment I made, I was speaking in terms of Baldur's Gate 1 just for clarification.

[saros_shadow_follower]

Oh ok didn't quite get it.

[CoM Solaufein]

F/M all the way. Your character has the power of a fighter and the greatness of a wizard at higher levels. I generally always play an F/M.