Hmm, thanks again, everyone. I have started a new game with a skald based on points being raised in this thread.
If I were going solo, f/m would make more sense, but I plan on using a standard six-member party, because I don't want to miss out on interactions and romances.
In a full party, I think that a skald can be so powerful that he almost overpowers the game. And he can also hold his own during the few instances in the game where he is forced to temporarily play solo.
I am playing this time with Kelsey and Aerie, so I am interested in seeing how my skald compares to a straight sorcerer and a cleric mage as far as overall spell power available during late SoA and ToB.
Bard or Fighter-Mage?
Débuté par
BelgarathMTH
, juin 22 2011 09:12
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#27
Posté 25 juin 2011 - 11:21
Humanoid_Taifun
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A few points yet need to be made, I think.
1)
2) Skald. Up to 2.950.000 XP the skald actually has a point. But once you select the HLA Enhanced Bard Song (and unless you're using a mod that changes the rogue HLAs, like RR or Refinements), the blade is the only choice where you don't feel stupid for having taken it.
3) Damage of the high level blade: Up to 9 APR with good THAC0 (in the end, THAC0 is pretty much a non-issue) for >20 points of damage each.
(like Scarlet Ninja-To + Strength 22 + Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization + Offensive Spin = 11 + 10 + 2 + 2 = 25 with Belm (24 points of damage), that's 175 + 48 = 223 points of damage in one round)
1)
Level 7 is rather cheap XP wise (from a BG2 point of view) and the bonuses are obvious. In most cases, I'd go even further though (level 9).ussnorway wrote...
For high level spells with some early combat ability = the fighter- wizard dual class. This human gets the weapons/ hit points early then goes mage but don’t make the mistake of waiting two long to dual… few kits are worth much more than level 6 to a wizard.
2) Skald. Up to 2.950.000 XP the skald actually has a point. But once you select the HLA Enhanced Bard Song (and unless you're using a mod that changes the rogue HLAs, like RR or Refinements), the blade is the only choice where you don't feel stupid for having taken it.
3) Damage of the high level blade: Up to 9 APR with good THAC0 (in the end, THAC0 is pretty much a non-issue) for >20 points of damage each.
(like Scarlet Ninja-To + Strength 22 + Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization + Offensive Spin = 11 + 10 + 2 + 2 = 25 with Belm (24 points of damage), that's 175 + 48 = 223 points of damage in one round)
#28
Posté 25 juin 2011 - 03:08
ussnorway
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@Humanoid_Taifun, HUH?
You quote me talking about Fighter- mages and then post about bards... I agree with your math but I think I've missed your point?
IMO the two main kit points are that the blade has his spin (as has been noted) & Swashbuckler THAC0 is effectively on par with clerics... but I think the bottom line is that every build has some merit (especially when you take play style into account) and the OP should now have enough 'food for thought' to make an informed choice.
You quote me talking about Fighter- mages and then post about bards... I agree with your math but I think I've missed your point?
IMO the two main kit points are that the blade has his spin (as has been noted) & Swashbuckler THAC0 is effectively on par with clerics... but I think the bottom line is that every build has some merit (especially when you take play style into account) and the OP should now have enough 'food for thought' to make an informed choice.
#29
Posté 25 juin 2011 - 05:05
Humanoid_Taifun
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I was talking about fighters too.
Why dualclass a fighter to mage at level 6 if level 7 is pretty much for free (and brings so much of an advantage)? And why stop at level 7? Anomen's major flaw IMO (besides his mouth) is his fighter level.
I wrote about level 9 in my post above, but often I'd go even further, to level 13 (but then, I'm kind of a power-gamer).
Why dualclass a fighter to mage at level 6 if level 7 is pretty much for free (and brings so much of an advantage)? And why stop at level 7? Anomen's major flaw IMO (besides his mouth) is his fighter level.
I wrote about level 9 in my post above, but often I'd go even further, to level 13 (but then, I'm kind of a power-gamer).
#30
Posté 25 juin 2011 - 05:47
Thailog
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IMO, the Blade's Offensive Spin is one of the most underrated special abilities.
Guaranteed maximum damage for 4 rounds, plus an extra attack can mean a lot, especially if you are using a weapon with a high base damage range (e.g. a Katana). Instead of rolling 1d10 per hit, you'll be doing straight 10s all the time. The damage output per round skyrockets!
Guaranteed maximum damage for 4 rounds, plus an extra attack can mean a lot, especially if you are using a weapon with a high base damage range (e.g. a Katana). Instead of rolling 1d10 per hit, you'll be doing straight 10s all the time. The damage output per round skyrockets!
Modifié par Thailog, 25 juin 2011 - 06:02 .
#31
Posté 25 juin 2011 - 10:01
Humanoid_Taifun
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But since the blade's also a bard with 1 base APR, you'd still be better off with weapons that grant extra attacks than with katanas.
#32
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 02:19
ussnorway
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@Thailog, The other side of that is defensive spin allows the lowest i.e. BEST AC in the game… Perfect for tanking that fighter whilst your group kills his boss.
@Humanoid_Taifun, Tactically speaking, what does an extra berserk or Ki really achieve?
As I see it, the benefits of having one or two more fighter levels DON’T outweigh the loss of level 9 spells by the time you reach Tob… Yes it’s fun to be able to stand up for yourself when something leaps out of the dark at you but IMO ‘Time stop’, ‘Comet’ & ‘Chain Contingency’ are where the real power resides.
@Humanoid_Taifun, Tactically speaking, what does an extra berserk or Ki really achieve?
As I see it, the benefits of having one or two more fighter levels DON’T outweigh the loss of level 9 spells by the time you reach Tob… Yes it’s fun to be able to stand up for yourself when something leaps out of the dark at you but IMO ‘Time stop’, ‘Comet’ & ‘Chain Contingency’ are where the real power resides.
Modifié par ussnorway, 26 juin 2011 - 02:21 .
#33
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 04:28
silenceall
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I don't want to speak for H_T, but I'm pretty sure he's referring to the extra 0.5 APR the fighter gets at both levels 7 and 13 and getting the full fighter hp upto level 9. Certainly the opportunity cost (a few thousand xp) for the first +1/2 APR is well worth the investment. Depeding on party size and play style you could argue for or against waiting to dual until you get to 9 or 13, but those seem to be the most "popular" dualing levels.
#34
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 04:46
Shadow_Leech07
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ussnorway wrote...
@Humanoid_Taifun, Tactically speaking, what does an extra berserk or Ki really achieve?
As I see it, the benefits of having one or two more fighter levels DON’T outweigh the loss of level 9 spells by the time you reach Tob… Yes it’s fun to be able to stand up for yourself when something leaps out of the dark at you but IMO ‘Time stop’, ‘Comet’ & ‘Chain Contingency’ are where the real power resides.
The last few mage levels give out no extra nine spells. Unless I'm looking at the chart wrong. The mage essentually tops out at level 28, giving out plenty of leeway for dualing.
#35
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 05:41
Thailog
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Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
But since the blade's also a bard with 1 base APR, you'd still be better off with weapons that grant extra attacks than with katanas.
Good point, however, if a Blade dual-wields say Celestial Fury and Kundane, he still gets 3 base attacks per round. Add Improved Haste on top of that, and you've got 6. With Offensive Spin, it would jump to 8 (or was it 7?).
The best thing is, only one of those attacks is made with the off hand, so that would be 7 hits per round with Celestial Fury at maximum damage and one with Kundane.
Modifié par Thailog, 26 juin 2011 - 05:47 .
#36
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 07:00
Humanoid_Taifun
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[quote]ussnorway wrote...
@Thailog, The other side of that is defensive spin allows the lowest i.e. BEST AC in the game… Perfect for tanking that fighter whilst your group kills his boss.[/quote]
In the beginning it's a real life-saver, but once you accumulate levels it's importance deteriorates. It's nice to have it & Enhanced Bard Song around for an instant -20 on your AC, but you usually don't actually need it.
[quote]@Humanoid_Taifun, Tactically speaking, what does an extra berserk or Ki really achieve?
As I see it, the benefits of having one or two more fighter levels DON’T outweigh the loss of level 9 spells by the time you reach Tob… Yes it’s fun to be able to stand up for yourself when something leaps out of the dark at you but IMO ‘Time stop’, ‘Comet’ & ‘Chain Contingency’ are where the real power resides.[/quote]
Silenceall pretty much nailed it (and I'm also one of the guys that say that you shouldn't dualclass a kensai in his pre-teens).
BTW: What mods do you use? Under normal circumstances, Comet is exactly half as effective as Dragon Breath (unless I'm missing something).
[quote]Thailog wrote...
Good
point, however, if a Blade dual-wields say Celestial Fury and Kundane,
he still gets 3 base attacks per round. Add Improved Haste on top of
that, and you've got 6. With Offensive Spin, it would jump to 8 (or was
it 7?).[/quote]
I think 7 would be normal.
[/quote]The best thing is, only one of those attacks is made
with the off hand, so that would be 7 hits per round with Celestial Fury
at maximum damage and one with Kundane.[/quote]
You do not get just one attack with Kundane.
What Improved Haste does is cut the round in two, so to speak, and in both segments you can get all your attacks in. Since you get 1 attack per round with your left, that means that with Improved Haste, you now have 2.
Celestial Fury is a great weapon, but mostly for it's special abilities.
Considering only the combat damage, things look like this:
CF + Belm
5 x (15 + strength damage bonus) + 2 x 12
vs
Belm + Kundane
7 x (12 + strength damage bonus) + 2 x 10
In other words:
5 x 3 + 2x2 = 19
vs
24 + strength damage bonus times 2*
Strength damage bonus may not be much at the beginning, but in the end everybody will be wearing belts, so the difference will only increase.
* That's a reduced end result. The actual damage is 99 + 7 x SDB vs 104 + 9 x SDB, so the relative difference isn't even all that big.
@Thailog, The other side of that is defensive spin allows the lowest i.e. BEST AC in the game… Perfect for tanking that fighter whilst your group kills his boss.[/quote]
In the beginning it's a real life-saver, but once you accumulate levels it's importance deteriorates. It's nice to have it & Enhanced Bard Song around for an instant -20 on your AC, but you usually don't actually need it.
[quote]@Humanoid_Taifun, Tactically speaking, what does an extra berserk or Ki really achieve?
As I see it, the benefits of having one or two more fighter levels DON’T outweigh the loss of level 9 spells by the time you reach Tob… Yes it’s fun to be able to stand up for yourself when something leaps out of the dark at you but IMO ‘Time stop’, ‘Comet’ & ‘Chain Contingency’ are where the real power resides.
[/quote]Silenceall pretty much nailed it (and I'm also one of the guys that say that you shouldn't dualclass a kensai in his pre-teens).
BTW: What mods do you use? Under normal circumstances, Comet is exactly half as effective as Dragon Breath (unless I'm missing something).
[quote]Thailog wrote...
Good
point, however, if a Blade dual-wields say Celestial Fury and Kundane,
he still gets 3 base attacks per round. Add Improved Haste on top of
that, and you've got 6. With Offensive Spin, it would jump to 8 (or was
it 7?).[/quote]
I think 7 would be normal.
[/quote]The best thing is, only one of those attacks is made
with the off hand, so that would be 7 hits per round with Celestial Fury
at maximum damage and one with Kundane.[/quote]
You do not get just one attack with Kundane.
What Improved Haste does is cut the round in two, so to speak, and in both segments you can get all your attacks in. Since you get 1 attack per round with your left, that means that with Improved Haste, you now have 2.
Celestial Fury is a great weapon, but mostly for it's special abilities.
Considering only the combat damage, things look like this:
CF + Belm
5 x (15 + strength damage bonus) + 2 x 12
vs
Belm + Kundane
7 x (12 + strength damage bonus) + 2 x 10
In other words:
5 x 3 + 2x2 = 19
vs
24 + strength damage bonus times 2*
Strength damage bonus may not be much at the beginning, but in the end everybody will be wearing belts, so the difference will only increase.
* That's a reduced end result. The actual damage is 99 + 7 x SDB vs 104 + 9 x SDB, so the relative difference isn't even all that big.
#37
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 07:48
ussnorway
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True however IMO it’s cool to become unhittable.Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
In the beginning it's a real life-saver, but once you accumulate levels it's importance deteriorates. It's nice to have it & Enhanced Bard Song around for an instant -20 on your AC, but you usually don't actually need it.ussnorway wrote...
@Thailog, The other side of that is defensive spin allows the lowest i.e. BEST AC in the game… Perfect for tanking that fighter whilst your group kills his boss.
Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
BTW: What mods do you use? Under normal circumstances, Comet is exactly half as effective as Dragon Breath (unless I'm missing something).
I prefer comet over dragons breath for the ease of targeting, and the extra range i.e. I typically cast ‘far sight’/ ‘wizard eye’ first then call in the artillery also I’m not thrilled about DB being fire damage because lots of ToB is immune to it… but that’s a pp (personal preference).
As for max levels…
If you accept the standard ToB cap of 8000000 then a normal mage can reach level 31 (7,875,000) that is 125000 remaining points or L8 in fighter… note this is absolute maximums and IMO most none solo games don’t reach these amounts.
#38
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 08:15
Shadow_Leech07
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DB helps you kill alot more things like say liches or anything else that is magic resistant(exception of fire resistance foes). Comet does not. Comet helps against things that mages would've killed already. I like how Comet looks though, I'll give you that.ussnorway wrote...
I prefer comet over dragons breath for the ease of targeting, and the extra range i.e. I typically cast ‘far sight’/ ‘wizard eye’ first then call in the artillery also I’m not thrilled about DB being fire damage because lots of ToB is immune to it… but that’s a pp (personal preference).
As for max levels…
If you accept the standard ToB cap of 8000000 then a normal mage can reach level 31 (7,875,000) that is 125000 remaining points or L8 in fighter… note this is absolute maximums and IMO most none solo games don’t reach these amounts.
If that max level thing was a response to me, the last few mage levels(29-31) do not offer anything except more HLA levels. The fighter levels are more important.
#39
Posté 26 juin 2011 - 09:33
Humanoid_Taifun
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On the subject of Comet, there is also the Oversight mod to give it a little edge.
Comet is now unaffected by magic resistance and the damage it inflicts is half cold and half crushing, making it no longer a weaker choice than Dragon's Breath for every situation.
