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[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Danarius and his elven apprentice that he is grooming to be magister (which I still find almost too good to be true) just wanted me to leave this place and go to Tevinter, a more civilized place.

Ugh, I feel bad killing one and ruining the career of the other, just for Fenris who I do not really care about.

The man is a bloody slaver, the letter he sends you if you let him take Fenris is chilling. Never mind the "elven apprentice" being Fenris' sister who sold him out for her....career. Never ONCE felt bad about letting Fenris gut that abusive monster. (Esp. thinking of Orana.....) 

I do not care about all companions in DAO or DAII. But as much as Fenris may have annoyed some of my Hawkes, nobody deserves that fate. Never mind that letting Danarius walk away will lead to more people suffering like Orana did. Or her father, who was cut up by Hadriana. Or Danarius' other slaves.

Fenris willingly sold himself for his sister. And yea I see where she is coming from. She's an elf. If she is not a magister, she is nothing. And if Fenris does not come back, then Danarius owes her nothign and could jus tdecide to kill her out of spite.

For me, seeing an elf becoming a magister beats Fenris' happiness. At least I would have felt Hawke accomplished something remotely useful. 
And Orana suffering was an exception. Because surprise, the game needs more madness.

Bad thing for Fenris sure, and I can shed a tear or two. But for me, the elf losing her unique career is more tragic to me.

Fenris did this to buy his family's freedom, out of DESPAIR. This isn't about Fenris' "happiness" but about ending a circle of abuse, slavery and psychological torture. (Minwipes, abuse......) An elven magister will never be worth such suffering to me. And Orana's suffering was not an exception, you think Tevinter slaves do not suffer? I have little sympathy for a sister selling her brother to hell. No accomplishment is worth it if it must be bought with such callous cruelty.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Danarius and his elven apprentice that he is grooming to be magister (which I still find almost too good to be true) just wanted me to leave this place and go to Tevinter, a more civilized place.

Ugh, I feel bad killing one and ruining the career of the other, just for Fenris who I do not really care about.

Then sell him to Danarius. He volunteered to be this, you gotta respect pre-mindwipe Fenris's decision. :innocent:

I would if I'd play the game again.

You would? Really?

Well, that settles it then.

[jlb524]

Persephone wrote...

Thanks. I know that I'm in somewhat grey territory here given that I usually let Loghain live (Given his involvement in slavery dealings) . But there is NO reason to let Danarius walk away other than callous sadism while sparing Loghain actually is for the greater good and does not lead to further abuse, torture and slavery.

I let Loghain live too 

But I think it's different.

[TEWR]

Kill Danarius, let Varania live, Feynriel becomes magister, takes Varania as apprentice, Varania becomes another magister, Tevinter changes for the better.


Happy ending. That's what I see happening anyway.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 juin 2011 - 08:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Fenris did this to buy his family's freedom, out of DESPAIR. This isn't about Fenris' "happiness" but about ending a circle of abuse, slavery and psychological torture. (Minwipes, abuse......) An elven magister will never be worth such suffering to me. And Orana's suffering was not an exception, you think Tevinter slaves do not suffer? I have little sympathy for a sister selling her brother to hell. No accomplishment is worth it if it must be bought with such callous cruelty.

And how are you ending the cycle exactly? You are dealign with a symptom, with one magister amongst probably hundreds. And an Elven magister does more to the elven cause than keeping Fenris free. It shows them that they can integrate and with their skill, rise through the ranks. I still find it impressive that Tevinter actually allows Elves to become Magisters and automatically get involved in politics.

I do not think Tevinter slaves suffer as much as Orana in that isolated incident no. Slavery is hardly the nightmare it's usual protrayed as. Many slaves forge bonds with their masters and when freed, join their former master's houses / clans / tribes as clients and vassals because they feel like they are almost family (Orana loves her masters).

I disagree, I think the accomplishment is well worth the cruelty. If she does something with it.
Many greater accomplishments were made on even greater cruelty. The fact that it's in a more personable situation, does not make it any more cruel. That's just sentimentality at work.

[Persephone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Kill Danarius, let Varania live, Feynriel becomes magister, takes Varania as apprentice, Varania becomes another magister.


Happy ending. That's what I see happening anyway.

Much better, that. I always persuade Fenris to let his sister walk away & I usually send Feynriel to Tevinter. A Dreamer-Magister with an Elven Apprentice. Much more of an accomplishment than an abusive slaver with an elven apprentice.

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Danarius and his elven apprentice that he is grooming to be magister (which I still find almost too good to be true) just wanted me to leave this place and go to Tevinter, a more civilized place.

Ugh, I feel bad killing one and ruining the career of the other, just for Fenris who I do not really care about.

Then sell him to Danarius. He volunteered to be this, you gotta respect pre-mindwipe Fenris's decision. :innocent:

That's so NOT funny. As it not at ALL. :innocent:

I think it's pretty funny. When Fenris had a different point of view he decided to become this living lyrium battery/weapon for the sake of his family. Only after losing his personality and perspective did he change his view on it. And it's not a healthy change either, he's all about running from his past choice and threatening to kill everyone and everything. He even kills that one Tevinter despite not wanting to kill her.

Who can say either perspective is correct? His run and kill manner seems more knee-jerk reactionary whereas his selling himself into becoming something else was at least thought out.

Just playing devil's advocate here. There's actually a pretty decent idea about the different personalities having two different sets of memories give you and which choice of the two personalities should be respected more.

Of course, it's taken to such an extreme that it's not that interesting of a choice. It's not like a guy wanted a Do Not Resuscitate order, then fell down lost his memory and decided he wants to be resuscitated. Which choice do you honor?

...

But it was funny.

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Kill Danarius, let Varania live, Feynriel becomes magister, takes Varania as apprentice, Varania becomes another magister, Tevinter changes for the better.


Happy ending. That's what I see happening anyway.

That'll be the one thing that will probably become canon regardless of choice in DA3. The rest of the game is really one-path with no differences. Then there's this small side quest which huge future implications and I just know they'd either completely ignore it or decide one way or the other which choice was canon.

Also didn't you go to bed?

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Fenris did this to buy his family's freedom, out of DESPAIR. This isn't about Fenris' "happiness" but about ending a circle of abuse, slavery and psychological torture. (Minwipes, abuse......) An elven magister will never be worth such suffering to me. And Orana's suffering was not an exception, you think Tevinter slaves do not suffer? I have little sympathy for a sister selling her brother to hell. No accomplishment is worth it if it must be bought with such callous cruelty.

And how are you ending the cycle exactly? You are dealign with a symptom, with one magister amongst probably hundreds. And an Elven magister does more to the elven cause than keeping Fenris free. It shows them that they can integrate and with their skill, rise through the ranks. I still find it impressive that Tevinter actually allows Elves to become Magisters and automatically get involved in politics.

I do not think Tevinter slaves suffer as much as Orana in that isolated incident no. Slavery is hardly the nightmare it's usual protrayed as. Many slaves forge bonds with their masters and when freed, join their former master's houses / clans / tribes as clients and vassals because they feel like they are almost family (Orana loves her masters).

I disagree, I think the accomplishment is well worth the cruelty. If she does something with it.
Many greater accomplishments were made on even greater cruelty. The fact that it's in a more personable situation, does not make it any more cruel. That's just sentimentality at work.

If slavery wasn't that bad, then Tevinter wouldn't be knee-deep in revolts from the slaves. Unfortunately, they always fail. But they keep trying.

While we're now talking about slaves though, I feel this song is perfect for Fenris:

http://www.youtube.c...95-bEBJXE#t=33s

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Fenris did this to buy his family's freedom, out of DESPAIR. This isn't about Fenris' "happiness" but about ending a circle of abuse, slavery and psychological torture. (Minwipes, abuse......) An elven magister will never be worth such suffering to me. And Orana's suffering was not an exception, you think Tevinter slaves do not suffer? I have little sympathy for a sister selling her brother to hell. No accomplishment is worth it if it must be bought with such callous cruelty.

And how are you ending the cycle exactly? You are dealign with a symptom, with one magister amongst probably hundreds. And an Elven magister does more to the elven cause than keeping Fenris free. It shows them that they can integrate and with their skill, rise through the ranks. I still find it impressive that Tevinter actually allows Elves to become Magisters and automatically get involved in politics.

I do not think Tevinter slaves suffer as much as Orana in that isolated incident no. Slavery is hardly the nightmare it's usual protrayed as. Many slaves forge bonds with their masters and when freed, join their former master's houses / clans / tribes as clients and vassals because they feel like they are almost family (Orana loves her masters).

I disagree, I think the accomplishment is well worth the cruelty. If she does something with it.
Many greater accomplishments were made on even greater cruelty. The fact that it's in a more personable situation, does not make it any more cruel. That's just sentimentality at work.

I am not ending it entirely. But taking Danarius out of the picture sure doesn't fuel it further.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you actually telling me that slavery is all that bad? I have nothing to say to that, really.

Just sentimentality? When there is clearly a better way?

Keep talking like that and you might just REALLY disappoint me one of these days!

[TEWR]

@Foolsfolly: I can't sleep T_T

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Kill Danarius, let Varania live, Feynriel becomes magister, takes Varania as apprentice, Varania becomes another magister, Tevinter changes for the better.


Happy ending. That's what I see happening anyway.

I'd have to stretch luck and fate so much for that to work.

Eynriel can't take anyoen as an apprentice before he becomes a magister himself. So Varania is forced to live in slums for decades.

[jlb524]

I think KoP has a point...but I don't think sentimentality is a bad thing...

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Kill Danarius, let Varania live, Feynriel becomes magister, takes Varania as apprentice, Varania becomes another magister, Tevinter changes for the better.


Happy ending. That's what I see happening anyway.

I'd have to stretch luck and fate so much for that to work.

Eynriel can't take anyoen as an apprentice before he becomes a magister himself. So Varania is forced to live in slums for decades.

Feynriel's a dreamer remember? He can use his powers and blood magic to force his way to the top.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If slavery wasn't that bad, then Tevinter wouldn't be knee-deep in revolts from the slaves. Unfortunately, they always fail. But they keep trying.

Reforms are to be made for sure. But the free elves in Tevinter have the highest standard of living than anywhere else, because they sell a few of their own to slavery. That's the price for their betterment.

And if slavery was so bad, you woudn't see elven slavers. It of course can be deplorable to those involved (just like it can be beneficial), and it's not to those not involved, including elves. 

Persephone wrote...
Am I reading this correctly? Are you actually telling me that slavery is all that bad? I have nothing to say to that, really.

Just sentimentality? When there is clearly a better way?

Yes, slavery is not always the nightmare it's made out to be. Slavery is such a vast word, there are many forms of slavery. In some parts of the world, slaves ended up ruling.

What better way? What Writer Redux said? He came up with it from his head, it's not in the game.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[rwscissors702]

Give Fenris to Danarius is good for all involved.
Danarius has Fenris.
Fenris has no pesky memories to bother him anymore.
Varania gets her apprenticeship.
Hawke is still a nobody... well, you can't win them all I suppose.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rwscissors702 wrote...

Give Fenris to Danarius is good for all involved.
Danarius has Fenris.
Fenris has no pesky memories to bother him anymore.
Varania gets her apprenticeship.
Hawke is still a nobody... well, you can't win them all I suppose.

And Fenris can't harm people when he's capitve. He's a living weapon by that point.

Ironically, he'd get the same treatment he wants for mages.

[TEWR]

True, that's just what I see happening. All I know is that Feynriel is apprenticed currently and I'm assuming Varania heads back to Tevinter.


But Feynriel is a Dreamer, and they are rare and extremely powerful mages. Coupled with Blood magic, he could rise to the top of the Imperium quickly. Maybe in a few years at most. And if Varania does return to the Imperium, he might take her on as an apprentice.

[Gunderic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Danarius and his elven apprentice that he is grooming to be magister (which I still find almost too good to be true) just wanted me to leave this place and go to Tevinter, a more civilized place.

Ugh, I feel bad killing one and ruining the career of the other, just for Fenris who I do not really care about.

Then sell him to Danarius. He volunteered to be this, you gotta respect pre-mindwipe Fenris's decision. :innocent:

I would if I'd play the game again.

If Danarius takes Fenris out of Kirkwall, slave or not, I'd envy him. Traveling to the exact same clean, plastic environments of Kirkwall ( or in the vicinity thereof ) must be worse inflicted psychological torture than the illusion of hope the clone victims from the Island have had to endure.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

I think KoP has a point...but I don't think sentimentality is a bad thing...

Not saying it is a bad thing.

Just questioning how cruelty negates accomplishments, when greater things were built on great cruelty.

[Foolsfolly]

I disagree, I think the accomplishment is well worth the cruelty. If she does something with it.
Many greater accomplishments were made on even greater cruelty. The fact that it's in a more personable situation, does not make it any more cruel. That's just sentimentality at work.

Why isn't there a choice like that in this series?

I mean, off the top of my head, the only thing that comes close would be the Bhelen election. He becomes a tyrant, kills who knows how many, but brings real social change to the dwarves and perhaps gives them a greater future.

Rome was built on slaves and the corpses of those who did not drop their cultural identities. This is cruel and wrong but it built a solid strong and enduring empire where culture, politics, and science were cultivated in a way that they couldn't with hundreds of thousands of differing tribes folk warring with other and barely getting by could.

Sometimes civilization costs heavily.

...there's really no interesting choices at all in DA2. Even KoP's selling Fenris thing feels, to me personally, to be stretching it. We really don't know anything about that situation. Denarius could drain Fenris's sister of all her blood so he could warm up his bathwater one day, for all the hell we know.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

rwscissors702 wrote...

Give Fenris to Danarius is good for all involved.
Danarius has Fenris.
Fenris has no pesky memories to bother him anymore.
Varania gets her apprenticeship.
Hawke is still a nobody... well, you can't win them all I suppose.

And Fenris can't harm people when he's capitve. He's a living weapon by that point.

Ironically, he'd get the same treatment he wants for mages.

He'll probably just run away again. He isn't Tranquiled, just brainwashed.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, slaver yis nto the nightmare it's made out to be. Slavery is such a vast word, there are many forms of slavery. In some parts of the world, slaves ended up ruling.

What better way? What Writer Redux said? He came up with it from hsi head, it's not in the game.

I already explained what I do in game.

As for excuses for slavery, I'll have none of them. None. No matter what form of slavery. Esp. involving someone like Danarius who oozes predatory abuse. Varania herself is clearly unhappy with her choice.

Hey, I'm at odds with my older brother. Would I sell him into slavery to further my career? (And my brother beat me for years) No, I couldn't live with myself if I did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But Feynriel is a Dreamer, and they are rare and extremely powerful mages. Coupled with Blood magic, he could rise to the top of the Imperium quickly. Maybe in a few years at most. And if Varania does return to the Imperium, he might take her on as an apprentice.

Might, if and what ifs.
I can't decide based on that kind of thinking personally.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
I already explained what I do in game.

As for excuses for slavery, I'll have none of them. None. No matter what form of slavery. Esp. involving someone like Danarius who oozes predatory abuse. Varania herself is clearly unhappy with her choice.

Hey, I'm at odds with my older brother. Would I sell him into slavery to further my career? (And my brother beat me for years) No, I couldn't live with myself if I did.

You said that Fenriel would apprentice the elf. Where does it say that in the game? That doesn't happen.
You just let her go and for all you know, she starves to death or ****s herself to survive. Or becomes an insane abomination and kills people in the process.

Varania is not without conscience, that's why and I'd hope she isn't. She must realize what she is sacrificing for it to be a sacrifice. That's why I regret not helping her. If she was like Branka, I wouldn't have. Because she does not realize what she is sacrificing.

If your career can present a new hope for your entire people that are oppressed. Then yea, I dont' see why not. Especially if he sold himself for you in the first place.