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[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If your career can present a new hope for your entire people that are oppressed. Then yea, I dont' see why not. Especially if he sold himself for you in the first place.

Because I have a conscience. And feelings. And standards. I won't sell myself to the devil (Not even religiously speaking) for earthly gain.

Those things tend to matter less when one is forced to fight for crumbs of bread to survive each day

Are you saying that all families that sell their children to survive (and probably make them survive) are devoid of conscience, standards and feelings? 

Given that we know nothing of Varania's circumstances (Other than her fetching for sympathy), the comparison is hardly fair. My Hawke would have helped Varania, had she been able to. But support her in this? NO.

I cannot speak about families I know nothing about. But I would rather have NO children than sell them into slavery.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Caladrius stays true to his word because the Warden is about ready to murder him, so he makes a last ditch effort to deal with the Warden. He offers the deal.

Hawke OTOH, is the one who strikes the deal. There is no threat to Danarius' life from either Hawke or Varania, so he has no obligation to hold his end of the bargain.

You can make a deal with Caladrius before fighting him. He can give you the letter and the seal and money, in exchange for the slaves.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For all you know Danarius would renege on his deal with Varania and kill her or just cast her aside. He got what he wanted. He has no obligation to keep his end of the bargain.

Sure. Anythign is possible.

But both Varania and Hawke made a deal with Danarius. They set terms and of course, next comes trust (which is vindicated). Your scenario with Fynriel is much different and mroe farfetched.

You may find it Farfetch'd, but I don't. I find trusting a magister to keep his word Farfetch'd, but you don't.


That's the wonderful thing about roleplaying! Both of us are Farfetch'd!

I think KoP's farfetch'd has a bigger leek.

Let's not show off our bigger leeks now guys. This isn't a contest (even though my Farfetch'd clearly has the bigger leek) 

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And for all we know he'll remember his memories that are "gone".


You can break the chain of memories, but the links themselves will always be there, forever buried in your mind, awaiting the day when they'll link together again


He remembered his past with Varania when he said he couldn't remember anything about a family prior to that.

...and now I wanna play KH2. 

Thanks for that. 

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
.............

I cannot believe this. Seriously. I won't even argue at this point. 

Pardon me while I bask in my disbelief. <_<

Many thought the same about us in regards to Loghain.
I hope you didn't complain about them doing what you are doing now.

Only this is an entirely different situation/choice. (I already addressed it) 

For them, it's just as disgusting. Indeed, Loghain was involved with the slavery of dozens, if not hundreds. They might feel it more disgusting even.

So in essence, they were nto allowed to do this because you decided they are wrong, and now you are allowed to do this, because you decided you are right?

Only recruiting Loghain doesn't lead to more slavery and abuse. What Loghain has done IS DONE and cannot be changed. Actively striking a deal with Danarius does just that, it furthers slavery and abuse. See the difference?

[Foolsfolly]

The biggest problem I have with Loghain being kept alive is the fact that he's a dirty good for nothing traitor.

How many died at Ostagar because of his actions? How many at Redcliffe because of his poor choice of ally? How many at the Circle for the same reason?

His betrayal with a boy who grew up as if it were his own nephew speaks too loudly for me. I cannot let that man live. I cannot allow that man to sacrifice himself to slay the Archdemon.

I have to have Alistair take his head off for the fallen, for the Grey Wardens, and for Cailan.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Caladrius stays true to his word because the Warden is about ready to murder him, so he makes a last ditch effort to deal with the Warden. He offers the deal.

Hawke OTOH, is the one who strikes the deal. There is no threat to Danarius' life from either Hawke or Varania, so he has no obligation to hold his end of the bargain.

You can make a deal with Caladrius before fighting him. He can give you the letter and the seal and money, in exchange for the slaves.

But you've been slaughtering slavers left and right to get to Caladrius, and he obviously has heard a great deal about you from Loghain.


Danarius has only heard about Hawke defeating the Arishok.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Caladrius stays true to his word because the Warden is about ready to murder him, so he makes a last ditch effort to deal with the Warden. He offers the deal.

Hawke OTOH, is the one who strikes the deal. There is no threat to Danarius' life from either Hawke or Varania, so he has no obligation to hold his end of the bargain.

You can make a deal with Caladrius before fighting him. He can give you the letter and the seal and money, in exchange for the slaves.

I always found that massively stupid. The Warden's killed too many damn people to be impressed by some lame mage. 

I always threaten his ass and make him give me everything then kill his slaving self anyway. 

[DreamerM]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because Magisters are also involved in politics. So Elven Magisters, I assume, can get involved in politics. That's pretty impressive.

Again, if Magisters are the strongest mages around, then it seems to me like an Elven Magister would be a Magister first and an Elf distant second. And we have a wierd situation where the place with Legal Slavery and Human Sacrifice is more racially progressive then the places where those things are frowned upon...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He can break his deal, of course. But that would be Vanaria's fault for trusting him and she'd get what was coming to her if she trusted him.

And what about you? If you sell Fenris back to Denarius for the rationale of preserving Whats-her-name's career, only for that "career" to have been a huge lie to begin with, then you have been duped just as throughly as she has. When will you get what's coming to you?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And if not, jackpot. But I would not be dealing with outside variables and unknown factors and a slim probability of a better outcome when making the choice. 

Heck, you can't sell Anders out to the Templars as a violent, mentally unstable Abomination, but you CAN sell Fenris back to Denarius for no goddamned good reason.

You don't even get that much gold for him.

There is something seriously wrong with this picture.

Modifié par DreamerM, 26 juin 2011 - 09:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Given that we know nothing of Varania's circumstances (Other than her fetching for sympathy), the comparison is hardly fair. My Hawke would have helped Varania, had she been able to. But support her in this? NO.

What would she be if her master is dead? Of course she is very likely going to end up on the streets with some low paying crap job, unless by some miracle, another magister with no apparentice wants to take her in. Or she is thrown in a Circle instead of being a Magister Lord's apprentice.

I wish I was able to convince Danarius to take Anders instead tbh. Experiment on him and learn if spirits can turn to demons and whether the transformation can be undone.

[Persephone]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The biggest problem I have with Loghain being kept alive is the fact that he's a dirty good for nothing traitor.

How many died at Ostagar because of his actions? How many at Redcliffe because of his poor choice of ally? How many at the Circle for the same reason?

His betrayal with a boy who grew up as if it were his own nephew speaks too loudly for me. I cannot let that man live. I cannot allow that man to sacrifice himself to slay the Archdemon.

I have to have Alistair take his head off for the fallen, for the Grey Wardens, and for Cailan.

And here we go again.

Just like in the good old days.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And for all we know he'll remember his memories that are "gone".


You can break the chain of memories, but the links themselves will always be there, forever buried in your mind, awaiting the day when they'll link together again


He remembered his past with Varania when he said he couldn't remember anything about a family prior to that.

...and now I wanna play KH2. 

Thanks for that. 

You're welcome.


Just call me Merlin, because I work my magic and people play games! I got Rifneno to go play FFXII and now you wanna play KH2.

[Foolsfolly]

Heck, you can't sell Anders out to the Templars as a violent, mentally unstable Abomination, but you CAN sell Fenris back to Denarius for no goddamned good reason.

You don't even get that much gold for him.

There is something seriously wrong with this picture.

That's because you're heading down the plot railroad. Choo Choo!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Only recruiting Loghain doesn't lead to more slavery and abuse. What Loghain has done IS DONE and cannot be changed. Actively striking a deal with Danarius does just that, it furthers slavery and abuse. See the difference?

Except some will argue that letting it go unpunished and letting his "tyranny" go unpunished is just encouraging it to happen in the future. And they will say that being a warden is no punishment.

Dealing with Danarius, one of hundreds, does extremily little to further it just like killing him does extremily little to hamper it. Having an elven magister on the otherhand is something else.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...
Heck, you can't sell Anders out to the Templars as a violent, mentally unstable Abomination, but you CAN sell Fenris back to Denarius for no goddamned good reason. 

You don't even get that much gold for him.

There is something seriously wrong with this picture.

For the love of Ra THIS THIS THIS THIS. 

Why on earth can I sell out Fenris, let Meredith kill Bethany but RA FORBID I HAND ANDERS AND MERRILL OVER THE TEMPLARS!

That makes absolutely no ****ing sense! 

[TEWR]

Being a Grey Warden is just as much a punishment as it is a blessing.

[Persephone]

DreamerM wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And if not, jackpot. But I would not be dealing with outside variables and unknown factors and a slim probability of a better outcome when making the choice. 

Heck, you can't sell Anders out to the Templars as a violent, mentally unstable Abomination, but you CAN sell Fenris back to Denarius for no goddamned good reason.

You don't even get that much gold for him.

There is something seriously wrong with this picture.

Makes me think of the cut "Betray Morri to the Templars" scenario. (Restored by the Morri Restoration patch) Why not do such a scene for Anders if you sell him out to Cullen? He could go all Justice........

[KnightofPhoenix]

DreamerM wrote...
Again, if Magisters are the strongest mages around, then it seems to me like an Elven Magister would be a Magister first and an Elf distant second. And we have a wierd situation where the place with Legal Slavery and Human Sacrifice is more racially progressive then the places where those things are frowned upon...

Exactly, which is why I found it surprising personally.

And what about you? If you sell Fenris back to Denarius for the rationale of preserving Whats-her-name's career, only for that "career" to have been a huge lie to begin with, then you have been duped just as throughly as she has. When will you get what's coming to you?

Never, because when I involved myself in this, I didnt' risk my life.

Heck, you can't sell Anders out to the Templars as a violent, mentally unstable Abomination, but you CAN sell Fenris back to Denarius for no goddamned good reason.

Her career is reason enough for me, even as a 50/50 deal.

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The biggest problem I have with Loghain being kept alive is the fact that he's a dirty good for nothing traitor.

How many died at Ostagar because of his actions? How many at Redcliffe because of his poor choice of ally? How many at the Circle for the same reason?

His betrayal with a boy who grew up as if it were his own nephew speaks too loudly for me. I cannot let that man live. I cannot allow that man to sacrifice himself to slay the Archdemon.

I have to have Alistair take his head off for the fallen, for the Grey Wardens, and for Cailan.

And here we go again.

Just like in the good old days.

Just briefly, it's a great way to start Alistair's reign. It shows he can fight his own battles not have to rely on the Warden or Eamon for everything. It sends a strong message and can easily be turned into propanda as the rightful king cutting down the usurper tyrant.

That's just a cool way to start Alistair's reign. A strong footing for the rest of his rule.

[jlb524]

Filament wrote...

I only spared Loghain because of his usefulness to the Wardens, not because of his actions being redeemable in the slightest.

This.

[Ryzaki]

 Yeah I can't spare Loghain. 

He supported Howe. My Wardens are all Couslands at heart (or city elves) and as far as they're concerned Loghain can go to hell. 

And the thought of betraying someone they like for that?  Hello Loghain! Meet sword! OFF WITH HIS HEAD! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2011 - 09:14 .

[Foolsfolly]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The biggest problem I have with Loghain being kept alive is the fact that he's a dirty good for nothing traitor.

He is good for something. He's established as a great military mind, though useless at politics.

If I were up against a war that would lead the complete destruction of my people and I had no experience planning strategies or anything necessary to win it, then I would jump on the offer immediately, no matter how much of a tool the man is.

It's an informed ability. Every plan Loghain hatches in Origins fails miserably. He's like the anti-Xanatos; even when he wins he loses.