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[Foolsfolly]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hmmm.... we're straying away from insane mage plotlines and going into Loghain territory. That means potential thread locking I believe.



Bioware retcon Orsino!


There we're still on topic.

You guys have moved fast. I made a joke at page five, went to bed, woke up and find that you're now on page fifteen? I'm impressed

You should go back and read it. There's plenty of jokes and snide comments on BioWare's lack of a decent story but there's also some good discussion and what-ifs in there.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We actually addressed that way back. Page 3? 4? 5? I don't know, we've moved so fast now.

Give me the short version. What use is harvester? 

[Gunderic]

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The biggest problem I have with Loghain being kept alive is the fact that he's a dirty good for nothing traitor.

How many died at Ostagar because of his actions? How many at Redcliffe because of his poor choice of ally? How many at the Circle for the same reason?

His betrayal with a boy who grew up as if it were his own nephew speaks too loudly for me. I cannot let that man live. I cannot allow that man to sacrifice himself to slay the Archdemon.

I have to have Alistair take his head off for the fallen, for the Grey Wardens, and for Cailan.

And here we go again.

Just like in the good old days.

Just briefly, it's a great way to start Alistair's reign. It shows he can fight his own battles not have to rely on the Warden or Eamon for everything. It sends a strong message and can easily be turned into propanda as the rightful king cutting down the usurper tyrant.

That's just a cool way to start Alistair's reign. A strong footing for the rest of his rule.

Only Alistair doesn't do it for those reasons. *Battles inner Loghain fangirl valiantly*

And killing the man who is a hero to his people......no, except in politically inept Bioware scenarios, I don't see that going over well.

Well, Loghain can lose almost all support at the Landsmeet ( except for the jerk who always seems to go with him ). He also caused a civil war by trying to seize the throne during a Blight, so I doubt he'd still be held in very high regard by then.

Modifié par Gunderic, 26 juin 2011 - 09:26 .

[TEWR]

erilben wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It's always practically better to spare Loghain though.

It's not. Alistair leaves before Loghain is put through the Joining. It's not guaranteed Loghain will survive. What if Loghain dies? Then you've gone down from 3 Wardens to 2 Wardens. Even if Loghain survives, you are still not better off.

Arl Eamon still comments on Alistair insisting on fighting even if you spared Loghain, so Alistair is still fighting the Darkspawn. But as a King and not your companion.

[Persephone]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Killing him while his honor was in doubt, with papers in hand that prove he was selling Fereldens to foreign interests, allowing blood mages to poison arls, overstepping Chantry law, and generally being overly paranoid about phantom Orelsians while the country falls to the Blight he doesn't believe exists.

And Ali's reasons are as clear as day. Loghain's responsible for Duncan's death and the persecution of the Wardens while Ferelden falls to a Blight.

The Orlesian threat is REAL.

And if anyone is responsible for Duncan's death, it's Cailan and his glory hunting/being "bored" by strategy. Never mind the delayed beacon. Never mind that Duncan was mortally wounded seconds after the beacon was lit. (Unless more time passed between cutscenes than they hint at) Had Loghain charged on horses or on griffins, he couldn't have saved Duncan or Cailan.

[Ryzaki]

 

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
Hide in the closets of the younger apprentices and then burst out randomly to scare them, as a prank.

Yeah, I don't know. It was dangerous, and if Meredith had discovered it... well. Hammer time.

Were it me, I would have had Quentin killed and burned all the evidence of his research. Are there no assassins in Kirkwall?

 

There has to be. There's assassins everywhere else.   

Really he could've gotten a group of apostates to do it. It's not like he didn't have contact with any. 

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It's always practically better to spare Loghain though.

In your opinion. 

How is it not?

That sounds more like a statement of fact. But if you meant that opinion wise my bad. 

It is my opinion.

But I think it's a good one.   Because...

1)  Blight
2) Grey Wardens are needed to stop Blight.
3)  There's only three Grey Wardens (Alistair, PC, Riodan)...not alot.
4) More Grey Wardens would be good given...BLIGHT with an Archdemon
5) Blight

[DreamerM]

No more Logain talk in the Crazy Mage thread please! The DA:O board is a click away!

[Ryzaki]

@jlb524: You don't get more GWs. Alistair leaves. 

You end up with the same amount and there's no guarantee that Loghain will survive. If anything the prudent thing to do is kill Loghian since you know Alistair is a guaranteed Grey Warden. You can say blight till the cows come home. That doesn't make a difference.

You have 3 GWs. If you recruit Loghain Alistair will leave leaving you with 2 GWs. IF Loghain survives the joining you have 3 GWs. Wow. Right back where you started. And if he dies you're now one grey warden short. It isn't the most pratical thing to do by a longshot.  

Now you might think its a good idea. But it's not the most practical option by a longshot. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2011 - 09:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well at least thsoe who are arguing aginst Loghain are not acting horrified at thsoe who spare him.

DreamerM wrote...
So is this some Elven Empowerment thing? Lets make this girl a magister....why? Do you think she'll be that fabled "good" magister, the one who doesn't use blood magic or own slaves or sacrifice people on alters to power dark spells?

Considering that she'd only get to that place by sacrificing her own brother, what makes you think she'll be any less ruthless then....I guess the average magister?

Her being less ruthless is irrlevent to me. In fact I hope she is ruthless enough to survive the system. Her simply reaching that station is enough. A symbol that elves can do something. A testemony to meritocracy, even if imperfect.

I do not follow this logic. Fenris trusted you, he respected you, and you betrayed him at the deepest level by selling him back to the master he loathed, and then you say you "didn't risk your life?" What do lives have to do with it? The life at stake is his, and you ruined it.

You said when would I get what was coming to me. I said never, because I was not bargaining with my life nor was I risking it, like Varania. If Danarius double crosses me, it's she that takes the hit. I'd be far away.

Why does her "career" mean so much to you?

Because it's an elf proving that she is not useless and doing all in her power to achieve her goals. I sympathize.
In addition, Danarius and his apprentice can be much more useful allies in the future, should I require connections in Tevinter.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We actually addressed that way back. Page 3? 4? 5? I don't know, we've moved so fast now.

Give me the short version. What use is harvester? 

Basically IIRC (I feel old when this just happened like a few hours ago), I said there isn't anything to indicate Orsino wanted to know about the Harvester ritual. The letter we find has nothing to indicate that what Orsino loved was the information regarding the Harvester. And we also don't know when that letter was sent.

Quentin was giving Orsino reports, and eventually one of those reports was a detailed report on the Harvester ritual, which Orsino read all of and said "WTF" and put it down. Maybe he read it again and again to make sure he's seeing straight, but he's still like "WTF" each time.


Then, in an attempt to make Orsino more badass and explain how he remembers the ritual, I said he has an eidetic memory.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

You don't get more GWs. Alistair leaves.

You end up with the same amount and there's no guarantee that Loghain will survive. If anything the prudent thing to do is kill Loghian since you know Alistair is a guaranteed Grey Warden.

Well, Riordan obviously disagrees. As do I.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

You don't get more GWs. Alistair leaves.

You end up with the same amount and there's no guarantee that Loghain will survive. If anything the prudent thing to do is kill Loghian since you know Alistair is a guaranteed Grey Warden.

Alistair may leave, but Arl Eamon comments on Alistair insisting on fighting at Castle Redcliffe. That to me signifies Alistair chose to fight as a King and not alongside the Warden. Which still means there is one Warden to end the Blight should things go awry.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well at least thsoe who are arguing aginst Loghain are not acting horrified at thsoe who spare him.

I don't see those who spare him say that slavery isn't as big a deal as it's made out to be either.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You don't get more GWs. Alistair leaves.

You end up with the same amount and there's no guarantee that Loghain will survive. If anything the prudent thing to do is kill Loghian since you know Alistair is a guaranteed Grey Warden.

Well, Riordan obviously disagrees. As do I.

 

And? I never said one couldn't think it was a good idea. But Riordan suggests that before Alistair gives his ultimatium. 

A practical person works with the resources they have. Not the resources they want. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Alistair may leave, but Arl Eamon comments on Alistair insisting on fighting at Castle Redcliffe. That to me signifies Alistair chose to fight as a King and not alongside the Warden. Which still means there is one Warden to end the Blight should things go awry.

 

He does? How on earth does Alistair even know where the fighting is going on? Plus he's exiled automatically if you recruit Loghain (if he's not killed). He's not in Fereldan at that point. So...no there isn't one extra Warden. If he's King doesn't he insist that he's *not* gonna fight? I don't even remember him being at Redcliffe when I had him marry Anora.  

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Basically IIRC (I feel old when this just happened like a few hours ago), I said there isn't anything to indicate Orsino wanted to know about the Harvester ritual. The letter we find has nothing to indicate that what Orsino loved was the information regarding the Harvester. And we also don't know when that letter was sent.

Quentin was giving Orsino reports, and eventually one of those reports was a detailed report on the Harvester ritual, which Orsino read all of and said "WTF" and put it down. Maybe he read it again and again to make sure he's seeing straight, but he's still like "WTF" each time.


Then, in an attempt to make Orsino more badass and explain how he remembers the ritual, I said he has an eidetic memory.

 

Oh. LOL

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2011 - 09:35 .

[TEWR]

It's for King Alistair, if you put him on the throne. I don't exile him so I don't know if Eamon still says it then.


Or even if he's executed.

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Killing him while his honor was in doubt, with papers in hand that prove he was selling Fereldens to foreign interests, allowing blood mages to poison arls, overstepping Chantry law, and generally being overly paranoid about phantom Orelsians while the country falls to the Blight he doesn't believe exists.

And Ali's reasons are as clear as day. Loghain's responsible for Duncan's death and the persecution of the Wardens while Ferelden falls to a Blight.

The Orlesian threat is REAL.

And if anyone is responsible for Duncan's death, it's Cailan and his glory hunting/being "bored" by strategy. Never mind the delayed beacon. Never mind that Duncan was mortally wounded seconds after the beacon was lit. (Unless more time passed between cutscenes than they hint at) Had Loghain charged on horses or on griffins, he couldn't have saved Duncan or Cailan.

The Orlesian threat is not real. It honestly looks like (thanks to Return to Ostagar) that Cailan and Celene were having an affair and that the good king was about to dust off his likely barren peasant-linage wife for the Empress. And then Loghain kills him off through betrayal.

The Ostagar battle was never meant to be won. The whole beacon thing proves that. No one's allowed in there, there's a gapping hole, and despite a small garrison placed in the Tower it's up to two people to fight through darkspawn and reach the tower to light the beacon...instead of the guards stationed there.

I mean it was seriously meant to fail. Cailian's biggest mistake was to hear this plan and trust Loghain. But of course he trusted him. Loghain's a peerless general, fought for Ferelden's freedom, and was Maric's most trusted advisor.

Poor kid. He didn't have the mind of a politican. He should have been some knight-errant running around saving maidens and bringing down bandits who terrorize villages. He was too trusting.

But had the beacon been lit by a garrison of men, and had they ever intended on holding the tower, then they would have lit it earlier so Loghain's forces would hit the darkspawn flanks and crush them between Cailan's forces and all the Grey Wardens.

Would it have ended the Blight? Maybe, who knows. There's also the fact that Loghain'd already poisoned Eamon and the knights of Redcliffe hadn't arrived because of it. Had they been there too there'd have been a greater chance of success.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's for King Alistair, if you put him on the throne. I don't exile him so I don't know if Eamon still says it then.


Or even if he's executed.

I never heard that. :/ 

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

@jlb524: You don't get more GWs. Alistair leaves. 

metagaming

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@jlb524: You don't get more GWs. Alistair leaves. 

metagaming

...he flat out tells you he's gonna leave if you recruit Loghain. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well at least thsoe who are arguing aginst Loghain are not acting horrified at thsoe who spare him.

I don't see those who spare him say that slavery isn't as big a deal as it's made out to be either.

I don't see how that's any less of a bad thing as causing the death of hundres if not thousands. Deliberately or not.
Many see you not punishing him as not caring about all the lives he took.

And yes. You know history. Slavery has many forms and rarely were they nightmarish. It's little different than working for a crap wage and not being provided shelter. Many slaves would have lived better lives. Enough that they could even free themselves. 

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's for King Alistair, if you put him on the throne. I don't exile him so I don't know if Eamon still says it then.


Or even if he's executed.

I never heard that. :/ 

castle redcliffe, as soon as you can walk around. Talk to Eamon.

[DreamerM]

Please please please please no more Alistair vs. Loghain talk in the DA:2 board? Please please?