626 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

::cough::

So 4 LEGIONS at the border are imaginary? Right.

There's a Blight going on and the King's asking for aid::cough::

Uh huh. Sure. That's as stupid of said king if Vercingetorix had asked Caesar for help against invaders. Those legions don't move an inch to stop the Blight. Nor do the Orlesian Wardens except Riordan. Do they just not......care?

Did you not bother listening to Riordan? He says if Fereldan's stupid enough to waste resources fighting itself they weren't gonna waste people and time on it. Which...is quite sensible. 

[TEWR]

Loghain and his forces at Ostagar could've easily won that battle. He purposely set it up to be a failure.

Bad tactics, poisoning Eamon, not sealing up lower caverns to a Tower that leads directly into their base on the day before a major battle is about to begin, etc.

He either purposely did that... or he's an idiot and Ferelden didn't know what a great general was until Xanthos Aeducan came along.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Foolsfolly wrote...
And yet they didn't invade a ruler-less nation whose army was completely wiped out at Ostagar.

The threat wasn't real.

Possibly waiting for the civil war to destroy the country and then go in. That's what Loghain could have thought and he'd be sensible to. Anyone in his right mind would have raised an eyebrow at 4 legiosn camping at your borders when you just told them to leave. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Did you not bother listening to Riordan? He says if Fereldan's stupid enough to waste resources fighting itself they weren't gonna waste people and time on it. Which...is quite sensible. 

And how is Loghain supposed to know that this is what they were doing, when the blight just stops at Lothering and doesn't do anything for a year?

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Except they tell you after Alistair's been exectued.  

Before Loghain's joining? When?
I dont' remember. Eh in any case, it doesn't matter.

I believe it's after Loghain's joining. Anora mentions it. And then you find the chest filled with Alistair's things.   

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

::cough::

So 4 LEGIONS at the border are imaginary? Right.

There's a Blight going on and the King's asking for aid::cough::

Uh huh. Sure. That's as stupid of said king if Vercingetorix had asked Caesar for help against invaders. Those legions don't move an inch to stop the Blight. Nor do the Orlesian Wardens except Riordan. Do they just not......care?

But they did move into Amaranthine...and were promptly slaughtered.

Maybe Orelsians just suck at fighting. They were defeated by dirt farmers, ya know...heh, there's a French joke in there somewhere.

[DreamerM]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...



Didn't Zevran sell for 6 gold? And
he was a skinny little scrap of an elf who hardly knew how to hold a
dagger? While Fenris is this lyrium-infused super-warrior? Danarius is a
cheap old man.

I know, right?? I bet he paid in pennies...er..coppers... too. What a gyp.

rwscissors702 wrote...

Well, you did make the man come all the way from Tevinter to collect him.

So if I'd had some sort of home-delivery available for my slave-selling business, I'd have gotten maybe 15 gold out of him? Worth remembering for the next time I decide to sell someone into slavery...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I understand that. And I'd argue, this has a lot to do with modern preconceptions.

Then thank the Maker for modern preconceptions. I'll raise a toast to that!

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Loghain and his forces at Ostagar could've easily won that battle. He purposely set it up to be a failure.

Ugh, what did I get myself into. No, he did not. Gaider confirmed it.

Anyways, I am not going into the Loghain debate again for the millionth time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Except they tell you after Alistair's been exectued.  

Before Loghain's joining? When?
I dont' remember. Eh in any case, it doesn't matter.

I believe it's after Loghain's joining. Anora mentions it. And then you find the chest filled with Alistair's things.   

So after. Works for me

[TEWR]

I guess we'll see if Orlais can be trusted with Celene on the throne in DA3. She believes in expansionism, and I'm wary of her because of that.


Now, let's drop the Loghain speak and talk about mages!

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Persephone
I am curious now. Why do you admire Caesar so much then?
Did he not cause the death of almost a million Gaul? He probably enslaved tens of thousands in the process.
Why don't you despise him when he furthered Rome's oppression on free people?

Are you comparing a general of ancient times to characters in a game series filled with 21st century morals thinking? Neither DAO nor DAII were written in a way to apply ancient/medieval morals without having your immersion ruined entirely. 

[Ryzaki]

 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Did you not bother listening to Riordan? He says if Fereldan's stupid enough to waste resources fighting itself they weren't gonna waste people and time on it. Which...is quite sensible. 

And how is Loghain supposed to know that this is what they were doing, when the blight just stops at Lothering and doesn't do anything for a year?

 

The blight didn't stop at Lothering KoP.  

Maybe if Loghain didn't act like he was the smartest person in the room he would've thought about it. :innocent:

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Did you not bother listening to Riordan? He says if Fereldan's stupid enough to waste resources fighting itself they weren't gonna waste people and time on it. Which...is quite sensible. 

And how is Loghain supposed to know that this is what they were doing, when the blight just stops at Lothering and doesn't do anything for a year?

More proof of his lack of foresight and that his own bias clouds his judgement.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Persephone.
Ah. Well I don't look lat DA that way at all.

Ryzaki wrote...
The blight didn't stop at Lothering KoP. 

Yes, it did. It only went out at the time of the Landmseet and the last treaty quest.

But enough, I won't get into that. I'm really tired.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 09:55 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Loghain and his forces at Ostagar could've easily won that battle. He purposely set it up to be a failure.

Ugh, what did I get myself into. No, he did not. Gaider confirmed it.

Anyways, I am not going into the Loghain debate again for the millionth time.

On this we'll always agree, dearest KOP.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Persephone.
Ah. Well I don't look lat DA that way at all.

Ryzaki wrote...
The blight didn't stop at Lothering KoP. 

Yes, it did. It only went out at the time of the Landmseet and the last treaty quest.

But enough, I won't get into that. I'm really tired.

Riiight. That's totally why people in Denerim are talking about how they lost their lands to the blight. 

You're usually quite sensible KoP .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Loghain and his forces at Ostagar could've easily won that battle. He purposely set it up to be a failure.

Ugh, what did I get myself into. No, he did not. Gaider confirmed it.

Anyways, I am not going into the Loghain debate again for the millionth time.

Where did Gaider confirm that?


I saw the number of forces Loghain had withdraw when he told Cauthrien to move out. There were many more than just the ones you can actually see a body for. If you look closely at the top of the screen you see many figures all moving to the right of the screen.

Before the beacon was lit, Rexel's forces were told to retreat.

Investigating the Tower on the eve of battle is a stupid thing to do. Seal the damn thing up for Christ's sake! Investigate it later!

He's either a ******-poor general or he purposely did it, and I'd like to see the Gaider thing claiming he didn't set it up to be a failure please.

[Foolsfolly]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Persephone
I am curious now. Why do you admire Caesar so much then?
Did he not cause the death of almost a million Gaul? He probably enslaved tens of thousands in the process.
Why don't you despise him when he furthered Rome's oppression on free people?

Are you comparing a general of ancient times to characters in a game series filled with 21st century morals thinking? Neither DAO nor DAII were written in a way to apply ancient/medieval morals without having your immersion ruined entirely. 

I actually think much of DA:O's morality was based on older morality. Not ancient times but certainly medieval times.

...except for when it comes to sexual preferences. Thedas is really really tolerant about sex....not so much if you're an elf though. Dwarves seem to be fine....

...people hate elves.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Now, let's drop the Loghain speak and talk about mages!

Those crazy mages! They so wacky!

[Persephone]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Oh, poor KoP. You're in it now.

There are dozens of threads and arguments like this in the Origins section. You could even start a new one there, but this thread isn't about that.

The Loghain argument never gets old.

Which is why I PRAY that we'll meet him in Orlais once DAIII rolls around. I need more Simon T., darn it!

[Ryzaki]

...Shouldn't Loghain be long dead by the time DA3 comes around? According to the epilogue I read the taint killed him pretty quickly didn't it?  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2011 - 09:58 .

[Lady Olivia]

Sorry if what I have to say has already been said - I didn't read through the whole thread and I'm just going to answer to the OP.

LobselVith8 wrote...

What I noticed is that the mage and templar debate threads seem to have people provide some intelligent and thought-out arguments for both sides, but it seems to be that the same level of thought that's put into the debates by either side seems to be missing from Dragon Age 2. Instead of having a debate between Charles Xavier and Erik Lensherr over their schism of what's the right course of action, where each side can be given weight to the argument that divides them, we seem to have a plethora of insane mages who do nothing to advance the story, except to be insane antagonists. We have insane mages in Acts I, II, and III, and all of them seem to be as boring and pointless as the next one.

From Tarohne with the purple lips to Quentin playing Frankenstein's Monster, we have mages who are simply insane. In a storyline that seems to explore the division between the templars and mages, we're given insane caricatures instead of fleshed out characters. Wouldn't the divide between the mages and the templars be better if both sides were allowed to demonstrate that they were intelligent, fleshed out characters that Hawke would need wit and intellect to deal with, instead individuals of falling to insanity that only provides Hawke with a wave of enemies to slaughter? Doesn't it deny Hawke the chance to use his brain to think of solutions to solve dilemmas if he's facing antagonists who will never act rationally?

Throughout the seven year story arc of Hawke in Kirkwall, we deal with a number of mage antagonists, but virtually all seem to be insane. Starkhaven mages Decimus, Grace, and Quentin all seem to have lost their mind, and Tarohne seems to be as insane as her Starkhaven counterparts. First Enchanter Orsino ends up losing his mind at the end of Act III and turns into the GoA Harvester, while Kirkwall mage Huon is insane and Evelina has become an abomination. Rather than being a nuanced dichotomy between two opposing sides that hold different views, it seems to present us with mages who have lost their minds. Can there really be a debate over mages and templars when the storyline only provides us with insane mages?

First, to me it's obvious that the writers were trying to create a very gray, ambiguous situation where it's really difficult to say who's right and who's wrong. To do that, they had to make the mages look bad. Very bad. Because the templars seem to be the oppressors, the aggressors, the traditionalists who won't allow anything to change, as hungry for power, and on occasion, also rather mad. So if most of the mages you meet are normal, sane, good people you can sympathize with, it all turns black & white pretty quickly.

Second, normal, sane, good people aren't as fun as lunatics. I'm not trying to make a joke here. What kind of a plot can you weave around something that's essentially "ok"?

Third, we have to assume that Hawke does indeed meet and know about at least some mages that are normal and good. We just don't get to see this in the game because it's not very exciting. The game tells its story by portraying the most dramatic events, not the most sane, down-to-earth ones.

Finally, perhaps the whole point of DA2 was exactly to show that being a mage really means being insane. That doesn't make anything "pointless" - it makes for a deeply troubling situation in which most of us couldn't honestly say what's the best course of action. I think that was what the writers were going for in the first place.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 26 juin 2011 - 10:01 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Shouldn't Loghain be long dead by the time DA3 comes around? According to the epilogue I read the taint killed him pretty quickly didn't it?  

He's still alive in DAII's Act III. (Confirmed by King Alistair)

[TEWR]

When the screen finally stays still (and it does for a bit) look to the top of the screen. You can see a ****load of forces retreating.