626 réponses à ce sujet

[HSHAW]

DKJaigen wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Somewhat from the left field, but... maybe the discomforts associated with being the mage (demons' attempts to possess them and whatever else is there, or simply just whatever it is that makes the mages able to do magic) actually do drive most of the mages insane over time, and that's the reason why there's so many of them in DA2? This thread presumes it's lazy writing and that majority of mages should be perfectly sane, but what if the writing plain portays the things the way they *are*?

"are "they in DAO? the answer is no. its just lazy writing. you meet so many idiots in the game (non-ages included) that i just wish i could nuke kirkwall and then burn it fire to be safe. Many things make no damn sense in the game.

If you're going to kill everyone in Kirkwall take them out of Kirkwall first or you'll make the veil even worse

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Somewhat from the left field, but... maybe the discomforts associated with being the mage (demons' attempts to possess them and whatever else is there, or simply just whatever it is that makes the mages able to do magic) actually do drive most of the mages insane over time, and that's the reason why there's so many of them in DA2? This thread presumes it's lazy writing and that majority of mages should be perfectly sane, but what if the writing plain portays the things the way they *are*?

"are "they in DAO? the answer is no. its just lazy writing. you meet so many idiots in the game (non-ages included) that i just wish i could nuke kirkwall and then burn it fire to be safe. Many things make no damn sense in the game.

Didn't half the Ferelden circle turn into demon worshipping lunatics?

Nope

[PinkShoes]

Yeah i thought that to, most of the mages seem mental and the one person who is seirously fighting for mage rights (anders) is also pretty much crazy.

[Raygereio]

I think BioWare tried to make the mages vs. templars choice ambiguous by making both parties both right and wrong; a grey vs. gray sort of thing. The problem being that they ended up presenting both as extremist factions; white vs. black (note, I do not mean good. vs. evil).

The problem with extremist factions is that they're generally utterly wrong and anyone with some semblance of sanity just wants to slap both of them and say "Over there is the obvious third choice, use it!".

Modifié par Raygereio, 23 juin 2011 - 03:55 .

[tmp7704]

DKJaigen wrote...

"are "they in DAO? the answer is no.

How many mages do you get to know in Ferelden for long enough to be able to tell it one way or the other?

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The insane mages do however present the dangers magic pose. They are a picture of what any mage might become. They should serve to temper the arguments for mage freedom. And while DA2 didn't present many sane circle mages, or really much of an argument for mages at all, DA:O did just that, so it is rather even now, if you ask me.

I agree that this is probably what the Devs intended.

However, it's more true to say we don't meet very many circle mages at all.  Most of the raving lunatics that we see are apostates, including the one who kills Hawke's mother.  So you've got a population of hundreds of mages in the Kirkwall circle (established by codex) and we meet a handful of them who are all insane. 

It's the players' choice to roleplay Hawke as believing that we see a representative sample or not.  In the end Hawke is asked to help in killing the entire population of the circle (men, women and children) based on that belief.

I would prefer to have both sides being presented with good points rather than both are presented as insane and you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

[DKJaigen]

tmp7704 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

"are "they in DAO? the answer is no.

How many mages do you get to know in Ferelden for long enough to be able to tell it one way or the other?

Enough that i can make clear distinction between the plot in DA1 and DA2. DA1 is beleivable in da2 is not not. people kill each other for the stupidst reaons and it doesnt even have to be the mages. its simply a badly written plot that wants you to steer you the way to the templar side and fails misrably

[Torax]

This is just yet another thread to attack DG and the writers about some hidden plot to get people to hate mages. It doesn't seem to work though. The truest post in this thread is just that both sides are portrayed as extremist. This is idiotic but it's not as idiotic as having the final decision of support ending the exact same way. But I digress. Most mages you run into in Origins are trying to kill you. If you were a magi origin you meet a few roaming around at your starting zone but that is basically the equivalent of that Dalish Elf sees more Dalish than other Origins.

Origins' flaw was that there was too many Good vs. Evil decisions. So some are trying to imply this to Dragon Age 2 like many try to for the Majority of role playing games. Paragon/Renegade, Light Side/Dark Side and the list goes on. This makes the illusion very obvious. A player may look at all their decisions as just red or blue and not truly about how they feel about the decision themselves. Did they weight the mages too heavy in DA2? I'd say no. This would only truly be the case if a player did not play Origins. Origins made most besides Uldred as helpful or collected in some way. So someone going into DA2 from Origins would already be supportive and more likely blind to the Templar side.

Someone new to just DA2 would be a bit more confused at first. Would see a ton of angry mages and have to ponder what is going on. This is most likely why Orsino was acting all helpful and why Bethany being the kinder sibling was far more crucial. This allowed a newer player to at least have more face time with what appears to be more stable mages in contrast to the power hungry Meredith and the few of her lackeys you come across. I wager most players are not looking for all these evil things that some of you are. Most are not going to even get from a situation that you are now.

There is no conspiracy to get to people to hate mages. I think most like myself just ended up in agreement with Carver. We are just tired of hearing about Mages and Templars and hope the next game at least just makes it more a side story.

Modifié par Torax, 23 juin 2011 - 04:38 .

[tmp7704]

DKJaigen wrote...

Enough that i can make clear distinction between the plot in DA1 and DA2.

So specifically, how many? Aside from the First Enchanter and maybe Wynne it'd be pretty easy to consider many of the DAO mages more or less unhinged. And there's very few that you interact with beyond either turning in quest item, or killing them because they stand in your way (or happen to be the quest objective)

Maybe that's the thing, actually -- in DAO we don't get in contact with mages enough that it'd challenge the presumptions about typical state of their mental health, one way or the other.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 juin 2011 - 05:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ OP
The discussion has become pointless yes. I am not that interested in debating which I prefer more. Incompetent idiots, or insane lunatics, or a mix of both.

[Annarl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ OP
The discussion has become pointless yes. I am not that interested in debating which I prefer more. Incompetent idiots, or insane lunatics, or a mix of both.

This^.  By the end of the game I just want to get the heck out of Kirkwall.   Look out Ferelden Hawke's coming home. 

Modifié par omearaee, 23 juin 2011 - 05:40 .

[hoorayforicecream]

I didn't feel all of the mages are insane. I did feel a large number of them were inclined toward the badness, but that made finding out about the enigma of kirkwall more satisfying. I really wish they had incorporated the enigma more centrally into the story.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ OP
The discussion has become pointless yes. I am not that interested in debating which I prefer more. Incompetent idiots, or insane lunatics, or a mix of both.

Maybe it's a Thedas version of Don Quixote, or The Ingenious Gentleman Serah Hawke of La Mancha.

[Torax]

Think of it like this. If you're looking for some reason to hate the writers? You will find it. I was more inclined to think statements from Origins and even just Fenris supported another reasoning that is ignored for the sake of making writers the villains.

If you threaten a mages life.
If you push them into a corner.
Make them tranquil against their will.
Threaten their loved ones or family.

The list goes on and on. This is even supported by Fenris who believes mages will always resort to blood magic if their need is great enough. Duncan during the Magi Origin will admit that when asked about a blood mage he witnessed when he was younger, he will agree that it was worth considering that said mage may have only resorted to blood magic for survival. "That is something to consider certainly." You want the writers to be villains. I saw the Resolutions to be evil. I saw Alrik as bad as Tarohne and others. All extremists. But neither of them influenced my ending decision. That more about the non extremists that had to exist vs. Meredith and her extremist views.

[DreamerM]

GavrielKay wrote...

However, it's more true to say we don't meet very many circle mages at all.  Most of the raving lunatics that we see are apostates, including the one who kills Hawke's mother.  So you've got a population of hundreds of mages in the Kirkwall circle (established by codex) and we meet a handful of them who are all insane. 

Which, by the way, is less an "anull all circles" arguement and more of an anti-Apostate arguement. Since most of the crazy mages we meet are apostates, this is a pretty good case for making sure magic-users are properly trained and controlled.... NOT a case for killing them all. That's like trying to deal with the threat of stray dogs by poisoning your labordor. It only makes YOU weaker.

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place. It reminded me of Game Of Thrones were Queen Cersei, as payback for a direwolf attacking her little sociopath of a prince, demanded the skin of a totally different wolf, a tame and gentle wolf, just on principle.

It wasn't fair then. It isn't fair now.

[maxernst]

DreamerM wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

However, it's more true to say we don't meet very many circle mages at all.  Most of the raving lunatics that we see are apostates, including the one who kills Hawke's mother.  So you've got a population of hundreds of mages in the Kirkwall circle (established by codex) and we meet a handful of them who are all insane. 

Which, by the way, is less an "anull all circles" arguement and more of an anti-Apostate arguement. Since most of the crazy mages we meet are apostates, this is a pretty good case for making sure magic-users are properly trained and controlled.... NOT a case for killing them all. That's like trying to deal with the threat of stray dogs by poisoning your labordor. It only makes YOU weaker.

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place. It reminded me of Game Of Thrones were Queen Cersei, as payback for a direwolf attacking her little sociopath of a prince, demanded the skin of a totally different wolf, a tame and gentle wolf, just on principle.

It wasn't fair then. It isn't fair now.

Perhaps the idea was that the thinness of the veil makes all the mages go mad.  Merrill and Bethany just haven't been there long enough.  Of course, moving the Circle would be a better option  than killing them all, but if they don't understand the source of the problem, only that all mages seem to eventually lose their minds...

[Herr Uhl]

DreamerM wrote...

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place.

It wasn't a reflex reaction, she had been pushing for the annullment a while, and Elthina was denying her the right. With Elthina dead, Meredith was the highest ranking circle member in the area and thus had the right to make the call.

[DreamerM]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place.

It wasn't a reflex reaction, she had been pushing for the annullment a while, and Elthina was denying her the right. With Elthina dead, Meredith was the highest ranking circle member in the area and thus had the right to make the call.

This is much more likely then her genuinely believing that anulling the Circle was actually the right way to handle...well, anything, really. Yes, dead mages can't be possessed, but then what are the Templars going to do all day? The logical thing is then they go find some MORE mages, get hyper-vigilent hunting apostates, but I gotta think that the very instant the word "Anullment" got around, every single apostate in the city would get the eff outta town.

[maxernst]

DreamerM wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place.

It wasn't a reflex reaction, she had been pushing for the annullment a while, and Elthina was denying her the right. With Elthina dead, Meredith was the highest ranking circle member in the area and thus had the right to make the call.

This is much more likely then her genuinely believing that anulling the Circle was actually the right way to handle...well, anything, really. Yes, dead mages can't be possessed, but then what are the Templars going to do all day? The logical thing is then they go find some MORE mages, get hyper-vigilent hunting apostates, but I gotta think that the very instant the word "Anullment" got around, every single apostate in the city would get the eff outta town.

I would assume the Templars would be reassigned to other Circles or chantries (don't forget the Templars also act as chantry guards), unless the decision was made to begin a new circle in Kirkwall.  Which would seem likely to be a mistake.

[Milosky]

I think the whole point they were trying to make is the power can corrupt anyone. But it didn't help that Anders was already an abomination to begin with, and Meredith had extra help from some ancient thing.

The one thing I did not like was how common it was for the mages/enemies to turn into abominations. I mean it makes you wonder just how the crisis of the Circle Tower was that big of a deal when it was only 1 demon, and here you have so many running rampart!

I can only hope is that they make more exclusive enemy styles for important enemies

[maxernst]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place.

It wasn't a reflex reaction, she had been pushing for the annullment a while, and Elthina was denying her the right. With Elthina dead, Meredith was the highest ranking circle member in the area and thus had the right to make the call.

Yes, I think Anders gets too much credit for being the final flashpoint.  Cullen virtually tells you the Annulment is on the horizon when he says something to the effect that the rite of Tranquility might have been merciful compared to what's coming.  And that's well before the chantry explosion.

[DreamerM]

maxernst wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
This is much more likely then her genuinely believing that anulling the Circle was actually the right way to handle...well, anything, really. Yes, dead mages can't be possessed, but then what are the Templars going to do all day? The logical thing is then they go find some MORE mages, get hyper-vigilent hunting apostates, but I gotta think that the very instant the word "Anullment" got around, every single apostate in the city would get the eff outta town.

I would assume the Templars would be reassigned to other Circles or chantries (don't forget the Templars also act as chantry guards), unless the decision was made to begin a new circle in Kirkwall.  Which would seem likely to be a mistake.

So the Templar forces that she worked so hard to build will be scattered to the winds. And I can't imagine that even amoung the most hard-line (non-insane) Templars, there's much of a carreer path available for a Templar who, technically, failed in her duty. Remember Templars are supposed to protect mages as well as protecting the people from them.

According to the Codex, the Chantry has invoked the Right of Anullment 17 times in 500 years. This means it's a big effin' deal when a commander decides to Annul a Circle. Can you imagine anyplace the Chantry could possibly want to send Meredith where her very presense wouldn't send the Mages rushing to their battle-stations (figuratively, if not literally)? What the heck is she thinking she'll do?

Not to mention with the Circle gone, the Templars will be disbanded to where they are actually needed. Which will leave Kirkwall in all it's thin-Veiled glory undefended against the inevitable return of those troublesome magic-users. Which sounds like a great recipe for disaster.

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place.

It wasn't a reflex reaction, she had been pushing for the annullment a while, and Elthina was denying her the right. With Elthina dead, Meredith was the highest ranking circle member in the area and thus had the right to make the call.

That isn't quite right.  The only reason it was legal was that no ranking member of the clergy was available to act as Grand Cleric.  Remember that Meredith is NOT a member of the Chantry Priesthood.  She belongs to a parallel order (and hypothetically a subordinate one).

-Polaris

[Annarl]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I didn't feel all of the mages are insane. I did feel a large number of them were inclined toward the badness, but that made finding out about the enigma of kirkwall more satisfying. I really wish they had incorporated the enigma more centrally into the story.

For me both sides were so over done that I was just tired of them by the end of the game.  I too liked the enigma of kirkwall and wished it had somehow played a larger role in the game especially act 3.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Remember that Meredith is NOT a member of the Chantry Priesthood.  She belongs to a parallel order (and hypothetically a subordinate one).

Yea and I think the most important question of all is not the enigma of Kirkwall, or the idol. But rather: "Wtf was the Chantry doing?"

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 juin 2011 - 09:01 .