626 réponses à ce sujet

[MorrigansLove]

DA2 is pointless.

[Sidney]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I just hope we get another capable villain. Hopefully another Loghain or Master Li.

Crazy because the plot demands it is not interesting in the slightest.

Well but really Loghain's not exactly on stable ground either. His fear of Orlais is only vaguely justified in the RTO DLC there's nothing to it in DAO at all. Even that evidence when compared with the horde of evil critters running about his country that he saw with his own eyes (no Mass Effect Council denying the REapers until it is too late) makes his insurrection pretty stupid on the face of it. It'd be like, and I can't fathom using Independce Day to explain reason, the VP killing the president in that flick because he was afraid of the dirty commies or something.

Modifié par Sidney, 26 juin 2011 - 02:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I just hope we get another capable villain. Hopefully another Loghain or Master Li.

Crazy because the plot demands it is not interesting in the slightest.

I would like to see the protagonist go up against a capable antagonist, in a story where the narrative allowed the main character to use his wits to the inevitable confrontation with the opposing side, instead being a mass murder and then dealing with an insane and nonsensical First Enchanter who becomes the GoA Harvester and following that with an insane and possessed Knight-Commander who will fight me with a macguffin she somehow knew about because the Plot Dictates.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Loghain and his forces at Ostagar could've easily won that battle. He purposely set it up to be a failure.

Ugh, what did I get myself into. No, he did not. Gaider confirmed it.

Anyways, I am not going into the Loghain debate again for the millionth time. 

Where did Gaider confirm that?

David Gaider discussed Loghain and the Battle of Ostagar:

David Gaider wrote...

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.

Gaider also discussed Loghain's perspective about the Orlesians and the darkspawn:

David Gaider wrote...

From my perspective, Loghain suffered from the idea that only he knew what was best for Ferelden. Only he saw the truth, and had the ability to act. To him, the ends always justified the means.<br />
<br />
When he finally saw that he had made a mistake (and he did, once the fact of a Blight became clear) he still felt he had to move forward. Who else was there to take his place? The fact that the player eventually stepped forward came as a profound relief, in a strange kind of way. Here was someone who could do what he could not, someone who had not made the mistakes he had -- someone who could safeguard Ferelden in a way that Cailan simply could not.<br />
<br />
It might seem that Loghain seems to think very highly of himself, but that's only partially true. He never enjoyed being the hero -- or at least that's what he liked to believe. I imagine even the most reluctant hero gets used to hearing it after a while. Pride can do funny things to a person. And he was accustomed to being the person who handled everything that needed handling, doing all the things that Maric couldn't bring himself to do or never wanted to see.<br />
<br />
And in the end, this is where Loghain was undone. He was so accustomed to fighting demons he saw them even when they weren't there. He's a general for a war that was no longer being fought, and he didn't really accept the idea that darkspawn -- a fairy tale foe -- could ever be more of a threat to Ferelden's security than Orlais. It'd be like trying to convince a Cold War-era general that Communism isn't the greatest threat facing America. To Loghain, the darkspawn were a threat that could be handled later -- the Orlesian threat had to be countered *first* -- and in his mind he was doing the wrong things for the right reasons... until they weren't any longer.<br />
<br />
Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

And Mary Kirby did an "interview" with Loghain here if you're interested.

[DreamerM]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

... I can't say no to the Picard.

I made an attempt, though I'm not sure I'm strictly allowed to do this? And someone can probably do it better than me. Anyway. Here's one with the toast:




And another:




And one with Morrigan! This is fun:






And one more generic one, because she doesn't need a reason:

This needs to be it's own thread.

This must spread.


Tell everybody.

[Foolsfolly]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I just hope we get another capable villain. Hopefully another Loghain or Master Li.

Crazy because the plot demands it is not interesting in the slightest.

I would like to see the protagonist go up against a capable antagonist, in a story where the narrative allowed the main character to use his wits to the inevitable confrontation with the opposing side, instead being a mass murder and then dealing with an insane and nonsensical First Enchanter who becomes the GoA Harvester and following that with an insane and possessed Knight-Commander who will fight me with a macguffin she somehow knew about because the Plot Dictates.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Loghain and his forces at Ostagar could've easily won that battle. He purposely set it up to be a failure.

Ugh, what did I get myself into. No, he did not. Gaider confirmed it.

Anyways, I am not going into the Loghain debate again for the millionth time. 

Where did Gaider confirm that?

David Gaider discussed Loghain and the Battle of Ostagar:

David Gaider wrote...

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.

Gaider also discussed Loghain's perspective about the Orlesians and the darkspawn:

David Gaider wrote...

From my perspective, Loghain suffered from the idea that only he knew what was best for Ferelden. Only he saw the truth, and had the ability to act. To him, the ends always justified the means.<br />
<br />
When he finally saw that he had made a mistake (and he did, once the fact of a Blight became clear) he still felt he had to move forward. Who else was there to take his place? The fact that the player eventually stepped forward came as a profound relief, in a strange kind of way. Here was someone who could do what he could not, someone who had not made the mistakes he had -- someone who could safeguard Ferelden in a way that Cailan simply could not.<br />
<br />
It might seem that Loghain seems to think very highly of himself, but that's only partially true. He never enjoyed being the hero -- or at least that's what he liked to believe. I imagine even the most reluctant hero gets used to hearing it after a while. Pride can do funny things to a person. And he was accustomed to being the person who handled everything that needed handling, doing all the things that Maric couldn't bring himself to do or never wanted to see.<br />
<br />
And in the end, this is where Loghain was undone. He was so accustomed to fighting demons he saw them even when they weren't there. He's a general for a war that was no longer being fought, and he didn't really accept the idea that darkspawn -- a fairy tale foe -- could ever be more of a threat to Ferelden's security than Orlais. It'd be like trying to convince a Cold War-era general that Communism isn't the greatest threat facing America. To Loghain, the darkspawn were a threat that could be handled later -- the Orlesian threat had to be countered *first* -- and in his mind he was doing the wrong things for the right reasons... until they weren't any longer.<br />
<br />
Tragic, in a way... though there's no arguing (in my mind) that Loghain dug his own grave. For me, the most fitting ending is Loghain sacrificing himself to slay the Archdemon. Though that's probably because I have an unholy love for Loghain that few others share.

And Mary Kirby did an "interview" with Loghain here if you're interested.

You know, I think I could read David Gaider's posts on DA:O characters all damn day. That was quite entertaining to read. I agreed with all of it except I always assumed Loghain walked into Ostagar with the intention to betray Cailan (unless Cailan caved in to Loghain's demands). It's interesting that the lead writer thought that he didn't have such a plan in place when they arrived at Ostagar.

Makes that moment when the signal tower lights more interesting. That's Loghain calucalating his odds and deciding the best thing to do is retreat and let Cailan, the Wardens, and everyone else die.

Odd how he then blamed everything on the Wardens...but perhaps not since Loghain doesn't think there's a Blight there's no reason to have these strange mysterious men hanging around his country.

Loghain's always interesting. I kind of wish there'd been more screen time with the guy. But he's plenty interesting with what time we do spend with him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

My blog about Ostagar.

[Foolsfolly]

3 mages surrender.

Hardly a good chunk. And there's dozens of mages who are abominations running around.

I mean it's really a farce that we're supposed to side with the mages in Act 3. Even as a Pro-Mage Hawke you spend a great deal leading up to the Gallows fighting demons and abominations. It's like even before Orsino goes Harvester on everyone the game is telling you, "Hey, you backed the wrong side."

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My blog about Ostagar.

Fantastic argument for a tactical retreat. It changes the betrayal from a power grab and paranoia of Orlaian forces to a much more pragamatic form of betrayal.

The only problem then is how large his mistake was in not crediting the Darkspawn as a threat. Instead his plans cause civil war, his force sits in Denerim, and the south is overwhelmed by the Blight.

Oh and he sends men who could be fighting the Blight to kill the last two Wardens in Ferelden, which also hampers the ability to fend off the Blight.

But that makes the character interesting. He's pragmatic, slightly paranoid, and made mistakes while always holding true to his character. Interesting antagonist.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Civil wars are never started by one man or one reason. One of my favorite quotes of the game, Ignacio: "The civil war brought many old grudges to a boil".

If you read codices about Ferelden's political system, you'll see it's unstable by nature and all it requires is a small push, especially after the war with Orlais. Loghain is partially responsible as is everyone else, and as is the entire system from the ground up.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 12:02 .

[DreamerM]

They kept going on and on about Loghain and Ostagar in the Crazy Mage Thread....

...so I annulled the Circle.

[Sidney]

Foolsfolly wrote...

3 mages surrender.

Hardly a good chunk. And there's dozens of mages who are abominations running around.

I mean it's really a farce that we're supposed to side with the mages in Act 3. Even as a Pro-Mage Hawke you spend a great deal leading up to the Gallows fighting demons and abominations. It's like even before Orsino goes Harvester on everyone the game is telling you, "Hey, you backed the wrong side."

Again the "background" mages are the "good guys" - the generic mages in the hooded robes standing behind Orsino all the time. They're not the ones who've lost it. You just don't interact with them a lot because they're not people who need a killin' like Tahrone.

If you are animal control you see all the "bad" pit bulls because no one calls you out to handle the good ones that aren't chewing people's legs off. Your job defines your view of things in the same way your "job" in DA2 only shows you the bad side of the mages.

[Foolsfolly]

Again the "background" mages are the "good guys" - the generic mages in the hooded robes standing behind Orsino all the time. They're not the ones who've lost it.

In the Templar ending those mages agreed to be sacrificed so Orsino could create his Harvester.

...

...I don't think they're that innocent. Although, I guess they are if you side with the Mages...or they're dead. Since a bunch of dead mages appear all around Orsino in a cutscene.

[DreamerM]

Sidney wrote...
Again the "background" mages are the "good guys" - the generic mages in the hooded robes standing behind Orsino all the time. They're not the ones who've lost it. You just don't interact with them a lot because they're not people who need a killin' like Tahrone.

If you are animal control you see all the "bad" pit bulls because no one calls you out to handle the good ones that aren't chewing people's legs off. Your job defines your view of things in the same way your "job" in DA2 only shows you the bad side of the mages.

I think it was a huge missed opportunity (one of many in this game) that we never got to actually SEE the atrocities against Mages for ourselves. We couldn't follow Anders to the end of the Mage Underground secret passage and actually see what life in the Gallows was really like. All we got were reports from Anders....and then the behavior of certain Templars that supported it... and some mages themselves and their family members.

We should have been able to see more of the Templar barraks too, explore what they were up to. We're not given very much first-hand information before we're asked to side with either the Torture-Happy Crazy Lady or the can't-not-be-evil spell-slingers. I want to stab everyone involved with that last showdown.

I don't understand, what's the rationale for refusing to let a family even ask about their Circle Mage relative? How is that supposed to make the Circle safer? Even maximum security prisons don't go that far.

[Foolsfolly]

I think it was a huge missed opportunity (one of many in this game) that we never got to actually SEE the atrocities against Mages for ourselves.

I was complaining about that in week one of the release. We're always told about the things they do. We never see them. We're never given the chance to really experience and form informed opinions on the situation.

We're told that Templars are rapist, murderous, monsters. We actually see a fair number of mages who are complete monsters, the biggest example being Quentin.

[Sidney]

DreamerM wrote...


I think it was a huge missed opportunity (one of many in this game) that we never got to actually SEE the atrocities against Mages for ourselves. We couldn't follow Anders to the end of the Mage Underground secret passage and actually see what life in the Gallows was really like. All we got were reports from Anders....and then the behavior of certain Templars that supported it... and some mages themselves and their family members.

I think we see enough of the Templars to see that there are some very rotten apples (Ulirch for example) in the mix and Thrask at the other end seems to confirm the sad state. Even Cullen who ins't completely crazy is very much hardline. I don't think we need to see the horrors ourselves because I don't think you ever would. I mean if you tour North Korea Kim doesn't show you crackdowns and prison camps. Uusually I agree with "show" don't "tell" but in this case it didn't bother me much.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Again the "background" mages are the "good guys" - the generic mages in the hooded robes standing behind Orsino all the time. They're not the ones who've lost it.

In the Templar ending those mages agreed to be sacrificed so Orsino could create his Harvester.

...

...I don't think they're that innocent. Although, I guess they are if you side with the Mages...or they're dead. Since a bunch of dead mages appear all around Orsino in a cutscene.

Even when a pro-mage Hawke manages to defeat the Templars and not one mage dies from that battle, and they still end up dying for some reason .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My blog about Ostagar.

well then....


But that battle could've been won had various things been accounted for. fortifications being built, had Loghain or Cailan told the Chantry to send many Templars and Mages instead of acting like a bunch of idiots, sealing the Tower immediately, taking the Wardens seriously when they say it's a Blight and that they can actually feel the Archdemon (which is what Duncan told them), etc.



So, as it stands I guess I have to believe for now that Loghain is a ****** poor general who made a lucky call since I never actually see a winning, or even decent, strategy of his. I keep hearing about how he's a great general, but I don't actually see it in Origins.

Stolen Throne Loghain may be a good general though. Haven't read the book thoough.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[TEWR]

ok, one thing I just discovered and found odd is that in Awakening in the Silverite Mine quest, the two Dragon Thralls you face in a boss battle use blood magic.


I went to the options menu and enabled the thing to display what abilities everyone uses some time ago, so that's how I know the dragon thralls used blood magic.

[Foolsfolly]

Sidney wrote...

DreamerM wrote...


I think it was a huge missed opportunity (one of many in this game) that we never got to actually SEE the atrocities against Mages for ourselves. We couldn't follow Anders to the end of the Mage Underground secret passage and actually see what life in the Gallows was really like. All we got were reports from Anders....and then the behavior of certain Templars that supported it... and some mages themselves and their family members.

I think we see enough of the Templars to see that there are some very rotten apples (Ulirch for example) in the mix and Thrask at the other end seems to confirm the sad state. Even Cullen who ins't completely crazy is very much hardline. I don't think we need to see the horrors ourselves because I don't think you ever would. I mean if you tour North Korea Kim doesn't show you crackdowns and prison camps. Uusually I agree with "show" don't "tell" but in this case it didn't bother me much.

North Korea doesn't work.

For one we're not touring Kirkwall. We live there and become its Champion, apparently a very high station. We can also have a sibling as either mage or templar in the Circle. And Hawke's mom goes to see her daughter/son in the Gallows.

Clearly they allow visitors.

There's no reason to tell instead of show in this case, other than the fact that they were rushed and I'm betting the budget for DA2 was thin as is.

[Nightdragon8]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I always thought of Varric as indifferent. While he does say he doesn't like the idea of dangerous people running amok, he also says he's tired of mages and Templars. plus he does say at one point that he has friends in the mages, the templars, the guard, and pretty much everywhere.

Varris tries to protray himself as neutral for as long as possible, but in the end he shows his cards.  If you side with the mages, he will wonder if we should be "aiding dangerous people" but if you side with the Templars he says, "protecting others is worth doing".  Pretty clear where Varric stands when the chips are down.

-Polaris

Funny in my game Varric said "thank goodness" for not picking Merediths side. (mage (M)hawke)

Edit: Above post, funny because normal circle mages aren't allowed vistors. Heck the family not allowed to even talk or look at there kids after the circle takes them by threat of death. Everywhere else. That could also be why the tensions are so high in Kirkwall. Too many mages have familys right outside he jail. So they have a sense of freedom.

I dunno making almost all the mages that are outside the circle insane acculty is a throwback from Awakening, when that templar gives you that assignment to hunt down the bloodmages. And you find them and they are insanly rambling. So imo its just a carry over from Awakening. IMO the whole game is too much like Awakening.

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 27 juin 2011 - 04:50 .

[Sidney]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Clearly they allow visitors.

There's no reason to tell instead of show in this case, other than the fact that they were rushed and I'm betting the budget for DA2 was thin as is.

They allow them but I doubt they let them into the parts where abuse happens...visiting rooms vs cells in modern prisons for example.

I agrere the budget was thin and I suspect DA2 went on the altar as a way to bridge cash flow until TOR drops. I've wondered if the structure of DA2 was decided and then the budget forced shortcuts OR if the timeline was known in advance and they developed the one city over ten years in response to that as the only way to deploy anything semi-coherent. Funny thing is people keep talking about DA2 selling less than DAO but it developed for 1/6 of the time as DAO so the ROI on it might be a lot higher.

[DreamerM]

I haven't had the guts to side with the Templars in any of my playthroughs yet, just because it rubs me the wrong way to side with the dudes who have all the swords, armor, and power against the dudes in the robes who's last resort is gonna be sacrificing blood, flesh, and soul in a desperate attempt to not become dead.

...Not sure if this makes me a **** or not.