626 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...
 We can also have a sibling as either mage or templar in the Circle. And Hawke's mom goes to see her daughter/son in the Gallows.

Clearly they allow visitors.

Which does not gel with the husband who's wife hadn't seen him int ten years and had, in fact, been prohibited from even asking asking about him.  How do you visit someone if you can't ask about them?

Maybe Momma Hawke was allowed visitation rights because she was the Champion's Mother, visiting the Champion's sibling. I don't get how they'd all go on about no contact whatsoever between mages and relatives otherwise.

[DPSSOC]

Maybe Hawke's wealth allowed his mother the privilege of visitations (even in Act 2). The only other mage we know is from a wealthy family is that Orlesian one and they might not have visited because they were ashamed of having a mage son.

[TEWR]

the De Launcet family actually did care about Emile. They weren't ashamed of him being a mage. They were ashamed of him being an idiot.

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

3 mages surrender.

Hardly a good chunk. And there's dozens of mages who are abominations running around.

I mean it's really a farce that we're supposed to side with the mages in Act 3. Even as a Pro-Mage Hawke you spend a great deal leading up to the Gallows fighting demons and abominations. It's like even before Orsino goes Harvester on everyone the game is telling you, "Hey, you backed the wrong side."

Or, "Hey, everyone's an idiot in Kirkwall." After all, we do have that scene where Hawke warns Cullen about Anders plot against the Chantry, and we see how the Knight-Captain decides to do nothing about it.

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

3 mages surrender.

Hardly a good chunk. And there's dozens of mages who are abominations running around.

I mean it's really a farce that we're supposed to side with the mages in Act 3. Even as a Pro-Mage Hawke you spend a great deal leading up to the Gallows fighting demons and abominations. It's like even before Orsino goes Harvester on everyone the game is telling you, "Hey, you backed the wrong side."

Mages is the wrong side anyway... You can't free the mages. The circle is necessary. It just doesn't have to be a torture/massacre place like Meredith did. For every mages that is good and don't do crap a million more are ready to backstab you and destroy the world. At least thats what Fenris told me  

The mages freed themselves, apparently. The Circles of Magi already emancipated themselves from the Chantry, which is why the Order of Templars left the Chantry to hunt them down. The debate is over, and a war looks to be inevitable between the two factions.

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Also, BioWare don't always put the real numbers of characters surrendering or any other actions. For exemple if the number of ennemy was real, we would have killed 3-4 Kirkwall city in a few years. In Mass Effect you had the same pattern and in many games sometimes the numbers shown on screen is not the one that will be use for future quest or games. If they're is really 3 mages surrendering, then I guess they are the most intelligent mages ever.

If they are going to be made tranquil, I'm not certain how intelligent those three mages really are. If I was a mage, I'd rather die than submit to the Rite of Tranquility.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the De Launcet family actually did care about Emile. They weren't ashamed of him being a mage. They were ashamed of him being an idiot.

He was an idiot.

Actually he reminded me of Jowen that way. So I was all set up for him to actually be a blood mage.

Even if he is, I'll be really surprised if he actually ever made it around the block, let alone out of Kirkwall.

But none of this helps the "why no visitors for anyone not-Hawke" question.

[TEWR]

Jowan's not so bad really. I liked him. He's a bumbling idiot at first, but he can do good eventually.


For all we know, he did in fact teach Connor not to deal with demons and Connor did it anyway because he didn't want Arl Eamon to die. If that's the case, I wouldn't blame Jowan at all for the events at Redcliffe regarding the corpse fiesta. I'd blame Connor and Isolde.


As for poisoning Eamon, I'd blame both Jowan and Loghain (or even Howe if that was another Howe plot and they were in cahoots before the battle at Ostagar).

[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the De Launcet family actually did care about Emile. They weren't ashamed of him being a mage. They were ashamed of him being an idiot.

He was an idiot.

Actually he reminded me of Jowen that way. So I was all set up for him to actually be a blood mage.

Even if he is, I'll be really surprised if he actually ever made it around the block, let alone out of Kirkwall.

But none of this helps the "why no visitors for anyone not-Hawke" question.

Likely because Hawke can become allied to Ser Thrask, Ser Cullen, and Emeric, not to mention the possibility of the Magistrate (who is given as the reason Hawke faces no repercussions from the templars for hiding Bethany if Kelder was spared). It would explain why Hawke's mother can see Bethany, but Ella had no contact with her mother, and this is the enviornment where mages are beaten if someone steals from the store or if one of the mages speaks to a civilian (and Hawke can hear someone getting beaten from the gates in the Gallows in Acts I and II).

[Zeevico]

Does making all the mages insane render the mage debate pointless? Yes.

Is that what happened in DA2? No, but they came pretty close to it without really bothering to go in depth into why the place was filled with so many mages gone wild. Which sort of killed the mood.

Modifié par Zeevico, 27 juin 2011 - 05:55 .

[DreamerM]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Likely because Hawke can become allied to Ser Thrask, Ser Cullen, and Emeric, not to mention the possibility of the Magistrate (who is given as the reason Hawke faces no repercussions from the templars for hiding Bethany if Kelder was spared). It would explain why Hawke's mother can see Bethany, but Ella had no contact with her mother, and this is the enviornment where mages are beaten if someone steals from the store or if one of the mages speaks to a civilian (and Hawke can hear someone getting beaten from the gates in the Gallows in Acts I and II).

I can? (loads up Act1F!HawkeRogue playthrough)......hmmm......(turns background music way down).....hmm.... I hear seagulls and....ocean....and.... is that yelling? I can't be sure, it's pretty far back there...

So basically, I think we can assume that it's Hawke's SpecialNess that allows Leandra to visit Bethany. Mages don't usually get that luxury.

[Foolsfolly]

If they are going to be made tranquil, I'm not certain how intelligent those three mages really are. If I was a mage, I'd rather die than submit to the Rite of Tranquility.

You say that because you're not Tranquiled. If you were you wouldn't care. You'd just methodically work on whatever project/craft you choose and never give it a second or first thought.

It's not really a fate worse than death, it's just a fate that's different from your normal life. The closest thing to it would be lobotomies but even then it's not really what being Tranquil does. Tranquil aren't addled or handicapped in anyway. They just have no connection to the Fade and thus no emotion or imagination.

I support the Right of Tranquility, mind you. I think there are mages who should be tranquiled. They should do terrible crimes to get that. Then they're still productive to the Circle, bring in money, do research, and the like...while also still be a great psychological tool. A big stick of the Templar's authority that if you go off and commit terrible crimes your life as you know it will end and you'll never be a threat to anyone again.

God I wish I could tranquil Anders.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

God I wish I could tranquil Anders.

Are you sure you even could? He is an Abomination, after all, and this makes him special in vague ways never ever explored, because Bombs Are Teh Coolest. 

Remember what happened to Karl when he went all Vengence on those Templar in the Chantry? He got his old personality back for a few seconds and declared that Anders has a bit of the Fade inside him, then begged to die before it went away again. I took this to mean that Anders maybe contains a concentrated version of whatever connection to the Fade they sever when they make you Tranquil.

So how would this affect him if they tried to make HIM Tranquil? Would it kill him? Would it force Justice out of him? Would it happen just like normal?


Don't worry DreamerM, sweety, an answer to those questions is coming NEVER! Sigh...

[River5]

DreamerM wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Likely because Hawke can become allied to Ser Thrask, Ser Cullen, and Emeric, not to mention the possibility of the Magistrate (who is given as the reason Hawke faces no repercussions from the templars for hiding Bethany if Kelder was spared). It would explain why Hawke's mother can see Bethany, but Ella had no contact with her mother, and this is the enviornment where mages are beaten if someone steals from the store or if one of the mages speaks to a civilian (and Hawke can hear someone getting beaten from the gates in the Gallows in Acts I and II).

I can? (loads up Act1F!HawkeRogue playthrough)......hmmm......(turns background music way down).....hmm.... I hear seagulls and....ocean....and.... is that yelling? I can't be sure, it's pretty far back there...

So basically, I think we can assume that it's Hawke's SpecialNess that allows Leandra to visit Bethany. Mages don't usually get that luxury.

If you click on random mages at the Gallows, one will tell you that if she talks to civilians, she'll receives 30 lashes or something like that.  So yes, they get beaten just for engaging in "unauthorized" conversations with people.

Can't remember if you hear the beating, but you can be plainly told about it from NPCs at the Gallows.

Modifié par River5, 27 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[River5]

Sorry, accidental double post.

Modifié par River5, 27 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[River5]

Foolsfolly wrote...

If they are going to be made tranquil, I'm not certain how intelligent those three mages really are. If I was a mage, I'd rather die than submit to the Rite of Tranquility.

You say that because you're not Tranquiled. If you were you wouldn't care. You'd just methodically work on whatever project/craft you choose and never give it a second or first thought.

It's not really a fate worse than death, it's just a fate that's different from your normal life. The closest thing to it would be lobotomies but even then it's not really what being Tranquil does. Tranquil aren't addled or handicapped in anyway. They just have no connection to the Fade and thus no emotion or imagination.

I support the Right of Tranquility, mind you. I think there are mages who should be tranquiled. They should do terrible crimes to get that. Then they're still productive to the Circle, bring in money, do research, and the like...while also still be a great psychological tool. A big stick of the Templar's authority that if you go off and commit terrible crimes your life as you know it will end and you'll never be a threat to anyone again.

God I wish I could tranquil Anders.

That's the "not caring" part that frightens me...  The prospect of having lost all my dreams, hopes, free will and individuality, and never caring one way or the other doesn't sound like a "life".

Having a body while being emotionally dead inside...  A computer on two legs with intelligence, but no way to enjoy any of your accomplishments doesn't sound at all appealing.

So yeah, between that and exploring the great unknown (a.k.a. dying), I'd risk dying.  Especially since in the Dragon Age Universe it is shown that the soul is a separate entity from the body (something that can only be speculated in our world), and there's thus a great likelyhood of "life" (a.k.a. existence) after death.

It's much scarier to lose yourself, what makes you "you", than to simply have your body stop breathing.

While you won't suffer once your Tranquil, just subjecting someone to the knowledge that they will be made tranquil must be one of the scariest feelings one can ever experience.  And judging by Karl's reaction after Anders temporarily brought him back, it probably is.

[River5]

DreamerM wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

God I wish I could tranquil Anders.

Are you sure you even could? He is an Abomination, after all, and this makes him special in vague ways never ever explored, because Bombs Are Teh Coolest. 

Remember what happened to Karl when he went all Vengence on those Templar in the Chantry? He got his old personality back for a few seconds and declared that Anders has a bit of the Fade inside him, then begged to die before it went away again. I took this to mean that Anders maybe contains a concentrated version of whatever connection to the Fade they sever when they make you Tranquil.

So how would this affect him if they tried to make HIM Tranquil? Would it kill him? Would it force Justice out of him? Would it happen just like normal?


Don't worry DreamerM, sweety, an answer to those questions is coming NEVER! Sigh...

I am truly curious about this as well.

If Anders is dead, perhaps we could ask them to experiment on Wynne to find out?   (Just kidding)

Wouldn't it be neat if they had tried to make Anders tranquil, but while being forcibly pushed outside of his body, Justice had managed to carry his soul back to the Fade with him...  Leaving behind an empty, living shell... 

And then, some demon took advantage of the abandonned vessel and started wreaking havock everywhere in the Gallows!  Mouahahaha! 

[DreamerM]

River5 wrote...

Wouldn't it be neat if they had tried to make Anders tranquil, but while being forcibly pushed outside of his body, Justice had managed to carry his soul back to the Fade with him...  Leaving behind an empty, living shell... 

And then, some demon took advantage of the abandonned vessel and started wreaking havock everywhere in the Gallows!  Mouahahaha! 

Which would up the total number of occupants of Casa de Anders to three.


The dude should start charging rent.

[The Baconer]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Mages is the wrong side anyway... You can't free the mages. The circle is necessary. It just doesn't have to be a torture/massacre place like Meredith did. For every mages that is good and don't do crap a million more are ready to backstab you and destroy the world. At least thats what Fenris told me

Maybe the mages aren't the ones who should be in chains.

[Myusha]

It proves a point by having insane mages run about. It shows how desperate they are to be free.
Which might say something about the Templars.

[DreamerM]

The Baconer wrote...

Maybe the mages aren't the ones who should be in chains.

Can't we agree that everybody, mage or Templar, has a pretty equal chance of deserving chains?

Where there is power, there is the potential abuse of that power. All it takes is the wrong person in the right place.

We see mages who abuse their power, turning to demons out of desperation or for selfish gain. We see Templars who abuse their power, exploiting their positions to pursue either personal vendettas or sadistic pleasure.

Abolishing the Circle, or the Templars, won't change what people are. I'd have liked to mention to Anders the chaos that pre-dated the Templars, when the Inquisition romed the countryside and killed not just mages (good and bad) but anyone else they decided was a heretic.

Although Janders would probably still say it was still better then imprisonment, since at least the mage got to die fighting.

[kromify]

i've been watching the old 90's cartoon of x-men recently and it rung a few bells. most of the mutants are good, some are bad, and yet the world wants to lock them ALL away, contain them, without regards to their personalities or powers. because of a few rogue elements.

honestly i have more sympathies for those who cannot put down their weapons than those who choose to pick them up.

[The Baconer]

DreamerM wrote...
Can't we agree that everybody, mage or Templar, has a pretty equal chance of deserving chains?

"We have it in us to be the better men."

"We already are."

I'm more inclined to agree with the Master of Magnet, regarding both mutants and mages.

[kromify]

The Baconer wrote...

DreamerM wrote...
Can't we agree that everybody, mage or Templar, has a pretty equal chance of deserving chains?

"We have it in us to be the better men."

"We already are."

I'm more inclined to agree with the Master of Magnet, regarding both mutants and mages.

mage and mutant supremecy!!!! 

i dibs nightcrawler. he's like a shadow-rogue built with magic!

[GavrielKay]

kromify wrote...
honestly i have more sympathies for those who cannot put down their weapons than those who choose to pick them up.

Me too.

I think mages should be trained and then allowed to live whatever life they choose.  If you teach youngsters to be good people, most of them will be.  Society can deal with the bad apples the same as they deal with any other criminals.  Use the Templars as a specialized police force.  Treat the casualties like casualites of any other natural disaster.  In DA, mages are just a natural phenomenon - same as a hurricane or an earthquake.  It's a tragedy when people die because of them, but no one runs around talking about forbidding coastal villages just because a hurricane might come through. 

Mages are just another risk in the DA world.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No, but you usually had pogroms of minorities when natural disasters and the plague stroke. The problem is not what mages do if they are allowed to do what they want (I personally wouldn't give them that freedom entirely or equally to the others). The problem is how the vast majority perceives them.

And don't tell me you'd educate the majority to do a 180 shift. If history taught us anything, is how fickle the majority of humans are and the greatest atrocities happened after the so called "enlightenment" and rise of "humanism". Just 60 years ago, the so called "good guys" and leaders of the "free world" threw citizens of Japanese origin in concentration camps. One push to their fragile crumbling economy and their arrogant psyche, and they'll be as cruel and irrational as humanity had always been.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 juin 2011 - 12:00 .