626 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

kromify wrote...
mage and mutant supremecy!!!! 

And like with Mutants, there's a problem in demanding perfect Mage equality.

That problem is power. There are whole pages dedicated to how destructive a mage can be when they decide they want to, and one or two or even a small group of "ordinary" people is going to have problems opposing them. How is an ordinary cop going to deal with a robber shooting fireballs up their pant-legs?

It's not just "fear of the unknown," like a perfect metaphor for racism or sexual orientation. It's also a very real fear for their own survival. Especially when dealing with Mages, who can (don't always, but still CAN) sacrifice their neighbors to feed their own power.

Even if you know and like and occasionally ARE a mage, that would make you nervous.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Unlike mages, mutants are a much larger phenomenon and the next step in human evolution (they would easily become the majority in a few decades). Were I in that context and were I a non-mutant, I'd gladly welcome "mutants" as the next step in our evolution as a species. Mages are different, they do not seem to be increasing in numbers in any significant way.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Unlike mages, mutants are a much larger phenomenon and the next step in human evolution (they would easily become the majority in a few decades). Were I in that context and were I a non-mutant, I'd gladly welcome "mutants" as the next step in our evolution as a species. Mages are different, they do not seem to be increasing in numbers in any significant way.

Well.... while not the best source of information, the looney in the Hanged Man says that his mother used to tell him that there are more mages around than when she was a child.


But, like I said, he's not the best source of information and since he's the only person who seems to say something along those lines, you have to take the validity of that comment in question.


Now if a Templar or even a Mage said that, then we'd have a credible source.

[DreamerM]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Unlike mages, mutants are a much larger phenomenon and the next step in human evolution (they would easily become the majority in a few decades). Were I in that context and were I a non-mutant, I'd gladly welcome "mutants" as the next step in our evolution as a species. Mages are different, they do not seem to be increasing in numbers in any significant way.

"Next step" is sincere comfort when it's you getting your face absorbed by some shapeshifter, or trying to defend against burglers who can walk through walls. Self-preservation kicks in. And not the small-minded, small-town racist kind of "have to hate this and that or God will END THE WORLD" kind of self-preservation, the "I have no idea how to stop this person from killing me if he/she wanted to" kind of self-preservation. And even if that particular person DOESN'T want to kill you and never will, what about someone else with similar power who isn't quite so moral? What does the "normal" person do then?

[River5]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Unlike mages, mutants are a much larger phenomenon and the next step in human evolution (they would easily become the majority in a few decades). Were I in that context and were I a non-mutant, I'd gladly welcome "mutants" as the next step in our evolution as a species. Mages are different, they do not seem to be increasing in numbers in any significant way.

Well.... while not the best source of information, the looney in the Hanged Man says that his mother used to tell him that there are more mages around than when she was a child.


But, like I said, he's not the best source of information and since he's the only person who seems to say something along those lines, you have to take the validity of that comment in question.


Now if a Templar or even a Mage said that, then we'd have a credible source.

And there's the "Sandal prophecy" that says that the magic will return, all of it, and that people will be just as they were.

So perhaps mages aren't meant to be so few after all... 

[KnightofPhoenix]

DreamerM wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Unlike mages, mutants are a much larger phenomenon and the next step in human evolution (they would easily become the majority in a few decades). Were I in that context and were I a non-mutant, I'd gladly welcome "mutants" as the next step in our evolution as a species. Mages are different, they do not seem to be increasing in numbers in any significant way.

"Next step" is sincere comfort when it's you getting your face absorbed by some shapeshifter, or trying to defend against burglers who can walk through walls. Self-preservation kicks in. And not the small-minded, small-town racist kind of "have to hate this and that or God will END THE WORLD" kind of self-preservation, the "I have no idea how to stop this person from killing me if he/she wanted to" kind of self-preservation. And even if that particular person DOESN'T want to kill you and never will, what about someone else with similar power who isn't quite so moral? What does the "normal" person do then?

\\

Of course, that's the beauty and tragedy of it. But in the larger scheme of things, no one will care, just like no one now cares about ******-erectus.

Naturally, self-preservation will kick in, hence why I am with Magneto on this, a war is inevitable.
I personally would still side with mutants.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well.... while not the best source of information, the looney in the Hanged Man says that his mother used to tell him that there are more mages around than when she was a child.

According to Merril, ALL elves were once mages. All of them. And there were supposedly millions of them, all over the world.

That is not the case anymore. This alone implies, to me at least, that the number of people born with magic has dwindled over time, not increased.

Although there is the case about Sandal... who is a dwarven mage and should not exist. I imagine DA:3 will talk about that sometime, that and the Primodial dwarves (if they were dwarves) who made the Idol and the thaig...

Wouldn't it be a twist if the "first Darkspawn" weren't Tevinter Magisters at all, but dwarven mages?...

[DreamerM]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, that's the beauty and tragedy of it. But in the larger scheme of things, no one will care, just like no one now cares about ******-erectus.

Naturally, self-preservation will kick in, hence why I am with Magneto on this, a war is inevitable.
I personally would still side with mutants.

The planet doesn't care about any given species. It's seen millions of them come and go without anything remarkable happening. And yet we are only ever given one thing of value in this world, life. And it means something to us for some reason. I can understand fighting to stay alive, even if you know it's futile. Especially if you know it's futile.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I can understand it too.

[IanPolaris]

DreamerM wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well.... while not the best source of information, the looney in the Hanged Man says that his mother used to tell him that there are more mages around than when she was a child.

According to Merril, ALL elves were once mages. All of them. And there were supposedly millions of them, all over the world.

That is not the case anymore. This alone implies, to me at least, that the number of people born with magic has dwindled over time, not increased.

Although there is the case about Sandal... who is a dwarven mage and should not exist. I imagine DA:3 will talk about that sometime, that and the Primodial dwarves (if they were dwarves) who made the Idol and the thaig...

Wouldn't it be a twist if the "first Darkspawn" weren't Tevinter Magisters at all, but dwarven mages?...

The problem is that isn't true and you are completely misreding what Merrill is saying.  Merrill isn't saying the number of mages being born is declining. She is saying is that the number of Elves (and really only Dalish Elves) born with magic is declining.  That is not at al the same thing.

-Polaris                                                                                                                                         r

[HSHAW]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Now if a Templar or even a Mage said that, then we'd have a credible source.

Don't Alrik's notes that he drops say that the number of mages being born has doubled in 3 years?

[TEWR]

@DreamerM: If you read the Dwarven version of the Darkspawn codex, you'll see that they first encountered the darkspawn and that they called them "creatures in our own image" (genlocks).


Add into that the fact that some reports on blue lyrium claimed that men who used it became so twisted they couldn't even be recognized as human, then you have to wonder if red lyrium is even worse.

[TEWR]

River5 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Unlike mages, mutants are a much larger phenomenon and the next step in human evolution (they would easily become the majority in a few decades). Were I in that context and were I a non-mutant, I'd gladly welcome "mutants" as the next step in our evolution as a species. Mages are different, they do not seem to be increasing in numbers in any significant way.

Well.... while not the best source of information, the looney in the Hanged Man says that his mother used to tell him that there are more mages around than when she was a child.


But, like I said, he's not the best source of information and since he's the only person who seems to say something along those lines, you have to take the validity of that comment in question.


Now if a Templar or even a Mage said that, then we'd have a credible source.

And there's the "Sandal prophecy" that says that the magic will return, all of it, and that people will be just as they were.

So perhaps mages aren't meant to be so few after all... 

I take Sandal's comment to mean that the dwarves will become mages again.

HSHAW wrote...

Don't Alrik's notes that he drops say that the number of mages being born has doubled in 3 years?

Son of a b****. you're right.



To Her Excellency, Divine Justinia,

I am well aware both you and Knight-Commander Meredith have rejected my proposal, but I beg you to reconsider. The mages in the Free Marches are past controlling, their numbers have doubled in three years, and they have found a way to plant their abominations in our ranks. They cannot be contained!

The Tranquil Solution is our answer. All mages at the age of majority must be made Tranquil. They'll coexist peacefully, retain their usefulness—a perfect strategy! It's simply the best way to ensure mages obey the laws of men and Maker.

I remain, as always, your obedient servant,

Ser Otto Alrik

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 juin 2011 - 01:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

HSHAW wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Now if a Templar or even a Mage said that, then we'd have a credible source.

Don't Alrik's notes that he drops say that the number of mages being born has doubled in 3 years?

Come to think of it, I sort of remember something like that. But extremists usually have these kinds of impressions about all their enemies. That they are "everywhere!" and "multiplying!".

But if mages are increasing in numbers, it's probably  due to a supernatural event (whatever it is Flemeth is nvolved in and Sandal's prophecy). Mages have been around for thousands of years, I dont' see why they now started to multiply.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 juin 2011 - 01:01 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Now if a Templar or even a Mage said that, then we'd have a credible source.

Don't Alrik's notes that he drops say that the number of mages being born has doubled in 3 years?

Come to think of it, I sort of remember something like that. But extremists usually have these kinds of impressions about all their enemies. That they are "everywhere!" and "multiplying!".

But if mages are increasing in numbers, it's probably  due to a supernatural event (whatever it is Flemeth is nvolved in and Sandal's prophecy). Mages have been around for thousands of years, I dont' see why they now started to multiply.

It's the smoke lyrium in the water.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Until it's addressed more explicitly, I won't take the words of Ser Alrik as proof. He's almost certainly exaggerating, and he's probably coming up with nonsense to justify his extremism.

[TEWR]

true. He's not exactly the best source of information either because he's such a sadistic, biased bastard.

I seem to recall Cullen saying something about mages coming into their power too and the lack of enough Templars to deal with them. I'm not sure of the exact words he used though, so it may not have anything to do with an increase in mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I assumed he was talking about the Chantry so brilliantly deciding to over crowd the Gallows with mages from starkhaven.

[DreamerM]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I assumed he was talking about the Chantry so brilliantly deciding to over crowd the Gallows with mages from starkhaven.

The Gallows is a really, really big building. What are you willing to bet they kept most of it empty and crammed too many mages into a few of the most secure rooms in the place, in the interests of "Keeping an eye on them?"

[LobselVith8]

River5 wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Likely because Hawke can become allied to Ser Thrask, Ser Cullen, and Emeric, not to mention the possibility of the Magistrate (who is given as the reason Hawke faces no repercussions from the templars for hiding Bethany if Kelder was spared). It would explain why Hawke's mother can see Bethany, but Ella had no contact with her mother, and this is the enviornment where mages are beaten if someone steals from the store or if one of the mages speaks to a civilian (and Hawke can hear someone getting beaten from the gates in the Gallows in Acts I and II).

I can? (loads up Act1F!HawkeRogue playthrough)......hmmm......(turns background music way down).....hmm.... I hear seagulls and....ocean....and.... is that yelling? I can't be sure, it's pretty far back there...

So basically, I think we can assume that it's Hawke's SpecialNess that allows Leandra to visit Bethany. Mages don't usually get that luxury.

If you click on random mages at the Gallows, one will tell you that if she talks to civilians, she'll receives 30 lashes or something like that.  So yes, they get beaten just for engaging in "unauthorized" conversations with people.

Can't remember if you hear the beating, but you can be plainly told about it from NPCs at the Gallows.

You can hear someone getting beaten from the closed gates that lead to the courtyard where Meredith and Orsino are located in Act III when Hawke initially arrives and during Acts I and II, and the tranquil proprietor nearby says she will get lashed if someone steals from her store. Apparently, Ser Alrik also spread his brand of philosophy to the mages: Alrik made a female mage tranquil because she had a relationship with another mage, and addressed that she "only Alrik can command me" to her former lover; another mage addresses that Alrik tells mages that it's only by being tranquil that they can avoid the Void and be with the Maker.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I seem to recall Cullen saying something about mages coming into their power too and the lack of enough Templars to deal with them.

If that's true, combine that with the Old God Baby, Flemeth's obvious Old God qualities, and Tevinter's return to power and I think we just might have the perfect set-up for a worldwide revival of the Imperium...

[Foolsfolly]

Are you sure you even could? He is an Abomination, after all, and this makes him special in vague ways never ever explored, because Bombs Are Teh Coolest.

I thought about that right after I posted it. The whole thing with Karl came to mind where Anders doing his Justice thing 'brought the Fade.'

It's an interesting question....who questions Abominations? We need to capture one and experiment with it.

...

...Bring me the Architect! We'll pay him with Warden blood.

Don't worry DreamerM, sweety, an answer to those questions is coming NEVER! Sigh...

I know, right? Here's an actual interesting question that'll never be explained in a game. It may get a writer to say "You can tranquil Abominations" if we ask politely.

Having a body while being emotionally dead inside... A computer on two legs with intelligence, but no way to enjoy any of your accomplishments doesn't sound at all appealing.

So yeah, between that and exploring the great unknown (a.k.a. dying), I'd risk dying.

Really? Guess I'm just the odd guy out here. I'd rather be tranquiled than killed. Part of me would view it like an experiment. It'd be interesting to view the world without emotion.

Not better, maybe a touch worse, but it'd be interesting to see what that's like.

Sure, it'd be better if it was a temporary thing but dying and having nothing is worse than living an emotionless life.

Personally.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, but you usually had pogroms of minorities when natural disasters and the plague stroke. The problem is not what mages do if they are allowed to do what they want (I personally wouldn't give them that freedom entirely or equally to the others). The problem is how the vast majority perceives them.

And don't tell me you'd educate the majority to do a 180 shift. If history taught us anything, is how fickle the majority of humans are and the greatest atrocities happened after the so called "enlightenment" and rise of "humanism". Just 60 years ago, the so called "good guys" and leaders of the "free world" threw citizens of Japanese origin in concentration camps. One push to their fragile crumbling economy and their arrogant psyche, and they'll be as cruel and irrational as humanity had always been.

"I took Gotham's White Knight and brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard. See, madness, as you know, is like gravity: all it takes is a little push!"

I like you even more since you reminded me of the Joker, KoP.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...
I know, right? Here's an actual interesting question that'll never be explained in a game. It may get a writer to say "You can tranquil Abominations" if we ask politely.

Which would probably be the most boring answer possible. And raise the question of why they don't perform Tranquilty rites on Abominations rather then just cutting their heads off and letting the Maker sort it out. Do Abominations just not hold still long enough? Is it too much work?

Bah. Another way Anders's Abomination nature was a downright neglected plot-point.

Really, who's bright idea was it for a dude who is a powerful mage AND an even-more-powerful Abomination to basically resort to the Anarchist Cookbook quality warfare when he (presumably) had much more colorful and unique means of causing massive death and destruction at his disposal?

I spent the whole game waiting for Vengence's HOMYGAWD moment, like the one in Jennifer Halper's short story where he flattens a whole group of heavily armed Templars and Gray Wardens by thinking abut it. That we never got to actually see that kind of power unleashed. Which makes me sad, and makes Justice kind of a spirit-jerk for giving Anders the unstoppable, unrelenting JUSTICE drive, without giving him any of the tools he'll actually use to achieve his goal. Anders didn't do anything, in-game, that was outside the ability of any non-possessed mage of his skill.

And I don't mean in actual gameplay, I understand "Vengence" is just a magical buff like any other activated mode. But I was hoping for some cut-scene chaos.

[Foolsfolly]

"Is it too much work? "

Would you want to touch one?

[Harid]

I think I would have preferred a Vengeance rampage to the magical bomb we ended up getting in Dragon Age 2, as we never really got to see Anders as truly being unstoppable as he supposedly was during his short story.

And I dunno why you guys are debating tranquiling an abomination. Why would both a spirit/demon and a mage both simultaneously, stand down long enough for the process to take place? At the very least, the demon/spirit would take over and abscond from the situation for self preservation?

It's part of what makes me believe that 'killing' Anders will not truly occur in Dragon Age 2 as he is an abomination and will live as long as the spirit is there.

I pretty much expect to see him in DA:3 and damn the choices.  (Par for the course in DA:2)

Modifié par Harid, 28 juin 2011 - 06:31 .