626 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

I think I would have preferred a Vengeance rampage to the magical bomb we ended up getting in Dragon Age 2, as we never really got to see Anders as truly being unstoppable as he supposedly was during his short story.

That could have been cool. Anders tearing apart Kirkwall, Hawke and company chasing after him, the confrontation, high emotion or condemnation.

That could have been cool.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
And I dunno why you guys are debating tranquiling an abomination. Why would both a spirit/demon and a mage both simultaneously, stand down long enough for the process to take place? At the very least, the demon/spirit would take over and abscond from the situation for self preservation?

A sloth demon would totally wait long enough.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I think I would have preferred a Vengeance rampage to the magical bomb we ended up getting in Dragon Age 2, as we never really got to see Anders as truly being unstoppable as he supposedly was during his short story.

That could have been cool. Anders tearing apart Kirkwall, Hawke and company chasing after him, the confrontation, high emotion or condemnation.

That could have been cool.

But that wouldn't have left room for epic Havestino and Soul Edgidith! We can't have that sorry.

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
And I dunno why you guys are debating tranquiling an abomination. Why would both a spirit/demon and a mage both simultaneously, stand down long enough for the process to take place? At the very least, the demon/spirit would take over and abscond from the situation for self preservation?

A sloth demon would totally wait long enough.

Win.

[Harid]

If they are going to make him a forced companion, at least him being the final boss would have made a little sense.

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I think I would have preferred a Vengeance rampage to the magical bomb we ended up getting in Dragon Age 2, as we never really got to see Anders as truly being unstoppable as he supposedly was during his short story.

That could have been cool. Anders tearing apart Kirkwall, Hawke and company chasing after him, the confrontation, high emotion or condemnation.

That could have been cool.

But that wouldn't have left room for epic Havestino and Soul Edgidith! We can't have that sorry.

Nah. They could still be there.

It'd be an event that kicks off the finale. Have Meredith clamp down hard on Kirkwall in the wake of the tragedy. She has her Templars not rebuilding the damaged Kirkwall but running through suspected apostates. And then ordering mages to their rooms where they have those magical resistant bars installed to make rooms jail cells.

All in an effort to stop the constant stream of escaping mages and route out all apostates in the city.

Orsino takes offense, the Chantry won't stop the Templars, the mages fight the Templars as they attempt to install the jail cells (because why wouldn't they? Tempers flare).

Meredith sees this as proof that the Circle is beyond saving and asks for the Right of Tranquility (if Elthena's alive or not is beside the point) it quickly spreads that Meredith's wanting to annull the Circle and the mages riot.

Hawke helps either side.

And to stay in line with your sarcastic response, yes we can fight both crazy people too. :happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Good, I can't imagine my game without them.

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Good, I can't imagine my game without them.

And the Pure Lyrium Idol grows feet, jumps 30 stories into the sky, attacks Hawke and then the two of them fight through the Fade and reality.

And at the end, it turns into the Twins which walk into Kirkwall and Hawke has to fight it solo old school acrade style (where the top portion of the giant is on screen and the hands do predictable punching and slamming motions).

And then Hawke defeats the The Twins...and flies off into the sunset....where he punches out the sun!

[DreamerM]

Harid wrote...

I think I would have preferred a Vengeance rampage to the magical bomb we ended up getting in Dragon Age 2, as we never really got to see Anders as truly being unstoppable.

And yet, they kept talking about heads he could rip off. Mixed messages.

Tell me it wouldn't have worked better for the story too: the Deal that Anders traded his soul for is on full display, and if you were a Templar, which story would you use to frighten the magelings: the dangers of Possession and the monster it turns you into, or the dangers of Chemistry?

Harid wrote...
And I dunno why you guys are debating tranquiling an abomination. Why would both a spirit/demon and a mage both simultaneously, stand down long enough for the process to take place? At the very least, the demon/spirit would take over and abscond from the situation for self preservation?

Depends on if Anders (or Janders) was conscious or not for the process. Justice sees with his eyes, hears with his ears, even thinks with his brain, so I could "maybe" that if Anders is knocked out, Justice can't manifest until he wakes up, and maybe you can tranquil an unconscious person....

Yeah, lots of maybes. Lots of maybes that will never be answered. Sigh.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

That could have been cool. Anders tearing apart Kirkwall, Hawke and company chasing after him, the confrontation, high emotion or condemnation.

That could have been cool.

BOSS FIGHT!

And depending on whether you're DIPLO!Hawke vs. AGRO!Hawke and your Rival/Friend standing with Anders, at the end of a bloody chase full of disemboweled Templar (and anyone else in his way) corpses, you can either try to talk him down or killing him outright.

THEN Meredith and Co show up, see the damage, and Meredith freaks the eff out and yells "ALL MAGES MUST DIE!" Then all the Annullment stuff happens.

Foolsfolly wrote...

"Is it too much work? "

Would you want to touch one?

If somebody's life depended on it, I'd sure give it the ol' college try.

Modifié par DreamerM, 28 juin 2011 - 07:43 .

[HSHAW]

Harid wrote...
I pretty much expect to see him in DA:3 and damn the choices.  (Par for the course in DA:2)

I doubt it, they made the choice between him and Sebastian look like one that will have significant consequences in future products.

Also, Gaider stated that Anders is dead if you stab him.

Modifié par HSHAW, 28 juin 2011 - 09:32 .

[kromify]

you'd have to be a real genius to merge with a sloth demon.

"help me! help me!"
*yawn* "maybe later"

[DreamerM]

HSHAW wrote...

Also, Gaider stated that Anders is dead if you stab him.

We know he's dead, that's why they call it the murder-knife. It murders characters dead.

Did he specify if it was mostly-dead or all-dead?

And if Anders dies, Justice doesn't die too, right? He just goes back to the Fade. Does he forget all about all this crap, or is he gonna be looking for a new likeable mage he can turn into a Timothy McVeigh knock-off? Or has he had it up to here with us unjust mortals and the unjust ways we treat other unjust mortals in our unjust world and is looking for some time off? He did seem almost homesick for the Fade during the one-sentence you got to hear from him if you took him with you to chill with Fenriel.

...That was another pity: we couldn't have a conversation with Justice. Ever. If it wasn't for that scene in the fade and some lighting-effects, it might be an option that "Justice" is just ordinary schizophrenia, a personality Anders created so he doesn't have to deal with his own rage and urge to kill things.

... So yeah, since this was the 2ed Intelligent Abomination in as-many games, maybe in the next one, the Intelligent Abomination will do something vaguely abomination-esque...Like...uh...I don't know.

Modifié par DreamerM, 28 juin 2011 - 10:26 .

[kromify]

anders is dead dead. justice, we think, is not.

i hope we don't get the option to annull a circle in da3. for something that's supposed to happen on average every 41 years we've had a statistical anomaly in the games

Modifié par kromify, 28 juin 2011 - 10:29 .

[Hatchetman77]

It may have been more effective to have a militant group of free mages active in Kirkwall and a series of story quests investigating them rather than multiple insane mages running around.  If this group had a specific agenda of wanting to kill/enslave non-magical humans and elves and bringing on a Tevinter Imperium it really would have hit home the potential dangers of mages. That would leave people like Orsino free to represent the "good mages" and present an option where Hawke might think that Mages could police themselves away from Chantry control.  The evil mages could have had their own plan to infiltrate the circle by allowing the Templars to capture some of their members to recruit mages from the inside (mabey mages that Hawke captures).  

There would have been multiple benefits to the story doing this.  First of all, there would be much more for Fenris and Anders to do.  Fenris could be more active in the story as I'm sure he would not want to sit around while mages plot to overthrow the government.  It could also change how Anders was presented in this game considerably.  You could have gotten rid of the Justice plot device all together.  You could meet Anders and he could be the lovable Anders from Awakenings to start (mabey with Sir Pounce A-Lot in tow).  He could be healing to make a living, but only asking what his customers can afford.  He could also be involved with Verric in some shady dealings and that's how you meet him.  It could be known that he used to be a Grey Warden later in the game when he revelas it himself.  After Hawke meets him he could be making a connection with the people of Kirkwall and interactions with this evil mage group could start changing him.  He could be realizing the good he does and find purpose and gain some responsability.  Then that responsability gets twisted and he feels something drastic needs to be done for the mages.  In short, his character arc could have taken place during the game and not off camera.  If you give the free mage group a charasmatic "Magneto like" leader people would buy it.  Hell, if you really wanted to bring Justice into the game then THIS guy could have been "inhabited" by Justice.  Anders could start agreeing with their policies and finally agree that destroying the chantry is necessary.

So when the character is forced to choose between the Mages and Templars you'd have the delima of having to choose between a circle run buy a well meaning "professor Xavier-ish" First Enchanter but a circle that you KNOW has been infiltrated and a significant number corrupted and is basically a time bomb waiting to go off vs. the Templars who are ready to slaughter a lot of innocent people but in the process destroy a very dangerous threat.  Actually having an active, specific threat in the circle that you know about would have brought that decision to a whole different level.  You actually have to make the choice of "Am I willing to kill all these innocent people (possably including Bethany) to prevent this SPECIFIC bad thing from happening".  It's not just "oh well, mages are kinda dangerous 'cause sometime you feed them after midnight and they go bad so I guess I better kill them." 

The ending could have been much better this way too.  First of all Meridith only needed a backstory as to why she hated the mages so much.  Instead the writers took the lazy way out and gave her a magical McGuffin.  A good 3rd act quest would have been digging around into Meridith's past to try to get some leverage over her and discovering some secret as to why she hates mages.  This could also be a way to build sympathy for her to make it easier for some people to side with her.  Also the final boss could have been the leader of the evil mages.  So the first boss you would have to fight is whoever you sided against and the second would be evil powerful mage guy (who kills the leader of the group you sided with in a cutscene right before the final fight).  That leaves both Meridith and Orsino free to not have to be evil characters simply to fulfil the criteria of a final boss fight at the end of the game.  A little extra care with the story could have gona a long way in making this game MUCH better. 

Modifié par Hatchetman77, 28 juin 2011 - 03:00 .

[DreamerM]

Hatchetman77 wrote...
So when the character is forced to choose between the Mages and Templars you'd have the delima of having to choose between a circle run buy a well meaning "professor Xavier-ish" First Enchanter but a circle that you KNOW has been infiltrated and a significant number corrupted and is basically a time bomb waiting to go off vs. the Templars who are ready to slaughter a lot of innocent people but in the process destroy a very dangerous threat. 

Which is exactly what we didn't have. We didn't really know what was happening in the Circle, but all the crazy mages we met were either apostates or would-be apostates turning to blood magic in an attempt to survive. We were shown no evidence of any significant corruption actually INSIDE the Circle.

[In Exile]

Foolsfolly wrote...
And the Pure Lyrium Idol grows feet, jumps 30 stories into the sky, attacks Hawke and then the two of them fight through the Fade and reality.

It needs moar chainmail bikini.

[In Exile]

DreamerM wrote...

Which is exactly what we didn't have. We didn't really know what was happening in the Circle, but all the crazy mages we met were either apostates or would-be apostates turning to blood magic in an attempt to survive. We were shown no evidence of any significant corruption actually INSIDE the Circle.

Which is why I maintain that DA2 failed when they chose not to have Hawke taken away to the Circle in Act I-Act II with a mini-arc in between about life there; the warrior/rogue alternative is Hawke sneaking in to try and wisk away Bethany (and Bethany refusing, with a chance to see both sides of the Circle).

Mage Hawke could just be called over by the Viscount anyway and Carver could be the lord in Hightown.

[DreamerM]

In Exile wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Which is exactly what we didn't have. We didn't really know what was happening in the Circle, but all the crazy mages we met were either apostates or would-be apostates turning to blood magic in an attempt to survive. We were shown no evidence of any significant corruption actually INSIDE the Circle.

Which is why I maintain that DA2 failed when they chose not to have Hawke taken away to the Circle in Act I-Act II with a mini-arc in between about life there; the warrior/rogue alternative is Hawke sneaking in to try and wisk away Bethany (and Bethany refusing, with a chance to see both sides of the Circle).

Or at the very least, actually GET to the Tower in Dissent and actually see the atrocities Anders was promising to show you before he got all distracted.

But either way, yes, we needed to spend some time actually in the Circle with the mages.

Modifié par DreamerM, 28 juin 2011 - 06:57 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Which is exactly what we didn't have. We didn't really know what was happening in the Circle, but all the crazy mages we met were either apostates or would-be apostates turning to blood magic in an attempt to survive. We were shown no evidence of any significant corruption actually INSIDE the Circle.

Which is why I maintain that DA2 failed when they chose not to have Hawke taken away to the Circle in Act I-Act II with a mini-arc in between about life there; the warrior/rogue alternative is Hawke sneaking in to try and wisk away Bethany (and Bethany refusing, with a chance to see both sides of the Circle).

Mage Hawke could just be called over by the Viscount anyway and Carver could be the lord in Hightown.

I would have preferred seeing an actual apostate perspective provided for Hawke, maybe working the Mages Collective into the storyline. I felt that it failed significantly by repeatedly having Hawke using magic in situations with people who would have reported him, but didn't because none of them could figure out that the man using magic right before their eyes was a mage. Working the apostate status into the storyline could have helped matters, rather than blatantly ignoring it.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I would have preferred seeing an actual apostate perspective provided for Hawke, maybe working the Mages Collective into the storyline. I felt that it failed significantly by repeatedly having Hawke using magic in situations with people who would have reported him, but didn't because none of them could figure out that the man using magic right before their eyes was a mage. Working the apostate status into the storyline could have helped matters, rather than blatantly ignoring it.

An actual apostate perspective would be too much. To give it fair treatment, it would have to mean essentially making 2 different games. It's just easier design wise to have Hawke as an apostate in Act I and then off to the templars and Circle in Act II, with freedom via special permission from the Viscount (with maybe a templar NPC instead of Fenris).

Once you become Champion, you can flaunt your freedom irrespective of the Circle.

[Harid]

HSHAW wrote...

Harid wrote...
I pretty much expect to see him in DA:3 and damn the choices.  (Par for the course in DA:2)

I doubt it, they made the choice between him and Sebastian look like one that will have significant consequences in future products.

Also, Gaider stated that Anders is dead if you stab him.

I don't know what degree of dead he meant, and based on DA:O retcons I have no reason to really believe him until DA:3 has come out.

[Noel Vermillion]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
And I dunno why you guys are debating tranquiling an abomination. Why would both a spirit/demon and a mage both simultaneously, stand down long enough for the process to take place? At the very least, the demon/spirit would take over and abscond from the situation for self preservation?

A sloth demon would totally wait long enough.

*cough* sloth demons are not actually slothful...

[ames4u]

TJPags wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

You have to consider the templar pressure when you debate the mages sanity. And when being locked in prison cells and the constant threat having everything that makes you an individual stripped away from you. Also judging the mages in Kirkwall as being a grand scheme of mage behavior throughout Thedas is not logical either. Consider reading the Enigma of Kirkwall as a basis for Kirkwall's history with Tevinter Magisters and the lengths they went, and it's lasting effect on magic in Kirkwall to those who are susceptible to it.

http://dragonage.wik...gma_of_Kirkwall

Well, yes and no here.

See, there are mages out in the streets of Kirkwall.  I've heard it argued repeatedly that they are apostates, not Circle mages.  Now, I don't know which they are.  But if they are NOT Circle mages, then this templar pessure issue doesn't apply to them.
 
As for actual Circle mages - ones we KNOW are from the Circle, we really see few.  Of those, 2 (Grace and the other one who's name escapes me) came from Starkhaven already blood mages.  Grace's vendetta against Hawke begins before she gets to the Gallows.  Ella and Bethany seem fine.  Karl is tranquil.  2 escapees are nuts, one is normal.  Orsino is  . . .well, Orsino.  So we have 3 normal, 2 nuts, and 1 Orsino.  Actually, we have more normals, since most of those with Grace and Thrask seem normal.  So, while I don't disagree that the templars in Kirkwall - some, at least - are themselves running amok, it's certainly not making a majority of Circle mages nuts.

Maybe it's Kirkwall, what with the thin veil.  Maybe it's coincidence that nut mages tend to gather in Kirkwall.  Either way, most of the nut mages we see are apparently not associated with the Circle, so the templar pessure theory shouldn't apply to them.  If they are Circle mages, well . . . when you have a rabid dog, you put it down, even if you're the one who gave it rabies.

Funny thing is, Ella should've been caught-not Grace. The Kirkwall circle were bound to have her phylactery yet she goes off into the big open world and doesn't get caught (if you let her go that is) and yet Grace and her goons are caught pretty damn quickly to throw in another useless and pointless fight, just 'cuz. Yet I fail to see how the Kirkwall templars would have their phylacteries. Is it ever really explained as to how the templars found them?

[ThePhoenixKing]

ames4u wrote...

Funny thing is, Ella should've been caught-not Grace. The Kirkwall circle were bound to have her phylactery yet she goes off into the big open world and doesn't get caught (if you let her go that is) and yet Grace and her goons are caught pretty damn quickly to throw in another useless and pointless fight, just 'cuz. Yet I fail to see how the Kirkwall templars would have their phylacteries. Is it ever really explained as to how the templars found them?

I had always just assumed that it was a case of the templars' perseverance working out for them, that their efforts to find the Starkhaven escapees were so persistent that eventually, when Grace and her fellows slipped up, they were there to capitalize on it. They might have also had help from the civilian population, I'm sure there are ordinary citizens of the Marches who would have cooperated with the templars in their search, or been intimidated into providing information, things of that nature.