626 réponses à ce sujet

[River5]

maxernst wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DreamerM wrote...

Which is the flaw in Meredith's "Anull the Circle" reflex reaction in the first place.

It wasn't a reflex reaction, she had been pushing for the annullment a while, and Elthina was denying her the right. With Elthina dead, Meredith was the highest ranking circle member in the area and thus had the right to make the call.

Yes, I think Anders gets too much credit for being the final flashpoint.  Cullen virtually tells you the Annulment is on the horizon when he says something to the effect that the rite of Tranquility might have been merciful compared to what's coming.  And that's well before the chantry explosion.

Except I believe that this was exactly what Anders was aiming for.  Remove the Grand Cleric from the equation, and there is no one left in Kirkwall with the power  to oppose Meredith's plans to call for the Right of Annulment; thus forcing all of the mages in the Circle (and the remaining apostates in Kirkwall) into a "fight, flee or die" situation.

If Meredith had calmly reacted and gone "Quick, send words to the Divine that the Grand Cleric has been slain by an apostate, and the Chantry building destroyed.  Ask her to send us someone to take on her duties until a new Grand Cleric has been officially appointed, and additional Templar troops to replace those that were lost.  Meanwhile, I would like to ask for the help of the City Guards in order to make a threat assessment, and investigate whether Anders was working alone, or not.  In that case, rest assure that his accomplices shall be brought to justice.  First Enchanter Orsino, I trust that you will do your best to make sure that every mage in the Circle stays calm and is willing to collaborate with us.  Rest assure that we will not blame the Circle for the action of a single troubled man.  I suggest that the surviving sisters and brothers of the Chantry be housed at the Viscount's keep until we find new housing arrangements for them until a new Chantry has been built"...

Well, let's simply say that Anders' plans would have utterly failed, and I'm pretty convinced he would never have done something as extreme as blowing up the Chantry in the first place if he'd thought that the Knight-Commander would take such a practical, diplomatic approach.

Ironically, Meredith was Anders' greatest ally in making sure that the mages rebellion against the Templars and the Chantry would occur.  She was the key to the rebellion, and Anders played her like a fiddle! 

[IanPolaris]

River S,

To extend your thought one step further, in Act 3, we can find by various sources that Meredith has kept asking and Elthina has kept denying the Right of Annulment, and that Meredith has taken the extraordinary step of going over Ethina's head to ask the Divine directly for the RoA.

That being so, I have to wonder if Anders merely beat Meredith to the punch. It would be simplicity itself to "bomb" the Chantry and have some circle stooge there to take the fall to make sure that Meredith has the legal right to call the RoA and make sure the circle takes the blame.

-Polaris

[DreamerM]

River5 wrote...
Meredith was Anders' greatest ally in making sure that the mages rebellion against the Templars and the Chantry would occur.

I think it works the other way too. Anders, presumably, didn't come to Kirkwall on a mission to overthrow the Chantry and start a rebellion; he was looking for a place to escape the wardens, blend in, and figure out what the heck was going on in his new half-spirit brain.

The problem came when it turned out the Kirkwall Circle wasn't fit place for man or beast. Karl made tranquil for passing notes, the mages forbidden to ever contact friends or family, heck, basically I got the impression that the mages remain locked in their rooms all day, when it's a good day. And several prominent templars are well-known torturers and abusers.

Even old, pre-Justice Anders would have had a hard time stomaching that. For Janders, that was a declaration of war, and he couldn't rest until he ended it.

[Huntress]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ OP
The discussion has become pointless yes. I am not that interested in debating which I prefer more. Incompetent idiots, or insane lunatics, or a mix of both.

Maybe it's a Thedas version of Don Quixote, or The Ingenious Gentleman Serah Hawke of La Mancha.

Hahaha! I lov yo:P

[DreamerM]

IanPolaris wrote...

To extend your thought one step further, in Act 3, we can find by various sources that Meredith has kept asking and Elthina has kept denying the Right of Annulment, and that Meredith has taken the extraordinary step of going over Ethina's head to ask the Divine directly for the RoA.

That being so, I have to wonder if Anders merely beat Meredith to the punch. It would be simplicity itself to "bomb" the Chantry and have some circle stooge there to take the fall to make sure that Meredith has the legal right to call the RoA and make sure the circle takes the blame.

Heh, that's a facinating possibility. There is saying that you should select your enemies with care, for they are whom you will come to most closely resemble. Meredith and Anders have a lot in common.

I wonder why Meredith thought the Divine would GRANT the Right Of Annulment, though... again, in 500 years, the Right has only actually been carried out 17 times, so that should tell you how much of a last-resort it really is. Meredith could claim no abominations, no proof of blood magic inside the tower, nothing except her runnaway Crazy Apostate problem, which the Right Of Annulment won't help anyway.

I get people are not always rational, but this is a huge logical gap in Meredith's plans. Which kind of supports my thesis that she's not just crazy, she's also kind of an idiot.

Modifié par DreamerM, 23 juin 2011 - 09:51 .

[Elessara]

Sorry I keep getting hung up on the "only 17 times in 500 years" ... that's once every 30 years or so. Once a generation basically. That actually seems quite often to wipe out an entire Circle down to the last man, woman and child especially since each Circle houses what, scores if not hundreds of mages.

I wonder what percentage of the population has magic.

[DreamerM]

Elessara wrote...
Sorry I keep getting hung up on the "only 17 times in 500 years" ... that's once every 30 years or so. Once a generation basically.

The Vietnam War was around 30+ years ago. It's often enough for it to be an Event, but rare enough that I can't imagine the Commander who actually allowed his/her circle to fail so badly would get off easily in the eyes of the Chantry or the public. Again, it's supposed to be a last resort. Meredith would have to make her case that the Circle was so irrevocably corrupt and evil that there's no other way to protect the public from the threat it poses.

Not saying it wasn't, given what we discover about Orsino, but what's important is MEREDITH had no proof that the Circle was beyond saving, nor did she even seem to want it. Someone determined to start a fight will always find a reason.

...it still makes no sense to handle a "out-of-control crazy Apostate" problem by killing the mages you've presumably already contained. If you're a templar who can't contain your mages safely, then you're kind of a lousy templar.

[Elessara]

Oh yeah sorry I wasn't arguing with your conclusion. It just struck me that the annulment has actually happened quite often. I'm not sure wars are good example though because they happen quite often too.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The problem would in this case be that the Kirkwall circle was in noway contained. The mages was fleeing the circle left and right, and was leaving it for meetings outside. Simply put, control had been lost of the Circle, and that could justify an annulment.

[TEWR]

If you make a center of learning a hostile environment, naturally people are going to want to escape. They'd rather die than suffer the abuses they've been suffering ever again.


Ferelden's Circle (the most moderate Circle) still has issues of apostates, but that is a small number. The environment for the most part isn't hostile, so no one there thinks death is preferable to living in that environment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No matter the reasons, circle mages out of control can still warrant justification for an annulment.

[TEWR]

when the Templars are the reason things got out of hand? No, that wouldn't call for an Annulment. It would call for the Chantry actually doing their job. They preach that they're supposed to protect mages from the populus and the populus from the mages. The Templars are a part of the populus too, and yet the Chantry is content to let the populus do whatever it wants to the mages.

And the Circle was not beyond saving. Orsino made a last ditch effort to Meredith. He said he would gladly help her search through the Tower if she would take back the Order for the Annulment, which was called for an act they had nothing to do with.

Given that Orsino valued the lives of every one of his charges (when he doesn't go insane on Pro-Templar playthroughs), I think he would've given himself up and surrendered. Something tells me you'll disagree with that, but I'll hold onto it anyway.

[deatharmonic]

DKJaigen wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Somewhat from the left field, but... maybe the discomforts associated with being the mage (demons' attempts to possess them and whatever else is there, or simply just whatever it is that makes the mages able to do magic) actually do drive most of the mages insane over time, and that's the reason why there's so many of them in DA2? This thread presumes it's lazy writing and that majority of mages should be perfectly sane, but what if the writing plain portays the things the way they *are*?

"are "they in DAO? the answer is no. its just lazy writing. you meet so many idiots in the game (non-ages included) that i just wish i could nuke kirkwall and then burn it fire to be safe. Many things make no damn sense in the game.

I agree, it seemed very lazy to just make almost every mage encounter a crazy one.... there's is no evidence at all in either DA:O and DA2 to suggest that demon possession attempts or anything about their magic ability factors into them going crazy.

[River5]

DreamerM wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

To extend your thought one step further, in Act 3, we can find by various sources that Meredith has kept asking and Elthina has kept denying the Right of Annulment, and that Meredith has taken the extraordinary step of going over Ethina's head to ask the Divine directly for the RoA.

That being so, I have to wonder if Anders merely beat Meredith to the punch. It would be simplicity itself to "bomb" the Chantry and have some circle stooge there to take the fall to make sure that Meredith has the legal right to call the RoA and make sure the circle takes the blame.

Heh, that's a facinating possibility. There is saying that you should select your enemies with care, for they are whom you will come to most closely resemble. Meredith and Anders have a lot in common.

I wonder why Meredith thought the Divine would GRANT the Right Of Annulment, though... again, in 500 years, the Right has only actually been carried out 17 times, so that should tell you how much of a last-resort it really is. Meredith could claim no abominations, no proof of blood magic inside the tower, nothing except her runnaway Crazy Apostate problem, which the Right Of Annulment won't help anyway.

I get people are not always rational, but this is a huge logical gap in Meredith's plans. Which kind of supports my thesis that she's not just crazy, she's also kind of an idiot.

Fascinating indeed!

Considering that she made helping apostates a hanging offense; and was willing to let her Templars slaughter people simply for providing an apostate relative with food and shelter for the night...  I wouldn't be surprised if, in her delusional state of mind, she would start thinking "if Elthina and the Chantry of Kirkwall aren't willing to let us call for the RoA, they are against us!", and be willing to destroy the Chantry while letting a Circle mage take the fall simply to be able to call for the RoA.

By that point, it's pretty clear she sees mages in Kirkwall as a plague that must be eradicated.

So yes, she may have been cheering inwardly when Anders blew up the Chantry.    Lol!

The difference between Anders and she is probably that Meredith saw herself and the Templars as an unstoppable force that could destroy all mages.

While Anders believed that mages are strong enough (but too scared) to face their opressors, and by doing so, eventually acquire their freedom.  Especially if the Chantry loses control over two of its main factions (the Circles and the Templars), weakening their social and political strenght.

So, in a way, both Meredith and Anders provided each other with exactly what the other wanted. 

Meredith: A chance to rid Kirkwall of the mages menace,
Anders: A mages rebellion against the Templars and the Chantry.

Now, all they need to do is shake hands, and tell each other "Well done!"   Lol!

Still, in the end, Anders (alive or dead) is the only one that truly got his wish...  So, I still see Meredith as the one who really ended up being played.

Plus, if he'd waited for Meredith to blow the Chantry hereself while letting a Circle mage take the fall, her actions against the Circle could have been seen as "justified".  Blowing up the Chantry as an apostate, and having Meredith call for the RoA (since Elthina is gone) while the Circle had absolutely nothing to do with it only brings more emphasis on the fact that she is no longer acting rationally, and encourages her own people (in the end, Cullen and the Templars) to eventually refuse her authority.

So having Anders do it was the best strategic course of action.

[DreamerM]

Elessara wrote...
Oh yeah sorry I wasn't arguing with your conclusion. It just struck me that the annulment has actually happened quite often. I'm not sure wars are good example though because they happen quite often too.

If it happens, on average, every 30 years or so, then I don't think that's "quite often." Like you said, it's about once a generation, and keep in mind this ALL the Circles at ALL the Chantries ALL over the world. I have no idea how many Circles exist, but I'd say if you're a normal mage living in a normal Circle run by non-crazy Templars, odds are you probably won't be Annulled at some point in your lifetime.

But this requires non-crazy Templars.

[IanPolaris]

DreamerM wrote...

Elessara wrote...
Oh yeah sorry I wasn't arguing with your conclusion. It just struck me that the annulment has actually happened quite often. I'm not sure wars are good example though because they happen quite often too.

If it happens, on average, every 30 years or so, then I don't think that's "quite often." Like you said, it's about once a generation, and keep in mind this ALL the Circles at ALL the Chantries ALL over the world. I have no idea how many Circles exist, but I'd say if you're a normal mage living in a normal Circle run by non-crazy Templars, odds are you probably won't be Annulled at some point in your lifetime.

But this requires non-crazy Templars.

There are (or were) 14 Circles of Magi outside the Tevinter Imperium including the now destroyed circles of Starkhaven and Kirkwall (which were the two in the Free Marches).  Fereldan only has a single circle at Lake Calenhad, and Orlais has six including at least one in Val Royeux and Mossimard.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[DreamerM]

IanPolaris wrote...
There are (or were) 14 Circles of Magi outside the Tevinter Imperium including the now destroyed circles of Starkhaven and Kirkwall (which were the two in the Free Marches).  Fereldan only has a single circle at Lake Calenhad, and Orlais has six including at least one in Val Royeux and Mossimard.

-Polaris

Hm. I wonder what the overall world population of Thedas is, and how many mages actually live in each Circle, versus the number of apostates vs. the number of kids born with magical talent to all races all over the world. We know magic runs in bloodlines, but how many bloodlines, and how strongly?

It makes me wish I were a schollar who could research the fall of various Circles throughout history, study what caused their break-downs, find out if there really is anything to the idea that more repressive Templars result in a circle more likely to be Annulled.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Pure numbers speaking: With 17 annulments happening in 700 years, that would mean every Circle have been annuled approximately 3 times.
Needless to say, some Circles have probably been annulled more than 3 times, as Kirkwall is likely to have been, and others have been less, like the college of magi in Nevarra I suspect.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Pure numbers speaking: With 17 annulments happening in 700 years, that would mean every Circle have been annuled approximately 3 times.
Needless to say, some Circles have probably been annulled more than 3 times, as Kirkwall is likely to have been, and others have been less, like the college of magi in Nevarra I suspect.

Considering the thin Veil in Kirkwall and the relatively relaxed attitude of the College of Magi I'd call that a very safe assumption.

Which leads me to wonder who had the bright idea of housing a Mage Circle in a place with a wonky Veil in the first place. And again, leads me to wonder how Meredith could have thought Annulling that Circle was a good idea. Way to eliminate the one supposed-to-be-safe place to put a mage in all the Free Marches...

[IanPolaris]

Meredith is a fruitloop. Frankly she was one even before the idol. Given what happened to her sister, there is no way that ANY responsible organization should have put her in any kind of command authority over mages let alone Knight Commander.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The same applies to a lesser extent to Knight Captain Cullen...another person who should not be placed in any kind of command authority over mages.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 juin 2011 - 08:26 .

[DreamerM]

IanPolaris wrote...

Edit PS:  The same applies to a lesser extent to Knight Captain Cullen...another person who should not be placed in any kind of command authority over mages.

The wonky Veil might even be a reason why the Kirkwall Circle should have more vigilent guards and keep their mages on a shorter leash then the average Circle. But it should definitely be carefully done. And it's no job for anyone inclined to paranoia.

It goes to show how DEMENTED things got when even Cullen was saying, "whoa whoa whoa, lady, that's too far." This alone gives me hope for Cullen. He's now seen how bad both sides can be: the cruelty of the blood mages, and the repression and torture by Templars. If he shows up again in DA:3, I'll be curious to see how it's affected him. He's either going to go nuts or become a tempering force for both sides... poor guy.

Modifié par DreamerM, 24 juin 2011 - 09:49 .

[Sidney]

DreamerM wrote...
I wonder why Meredith thought the Divine would GRANT the Right Of Annulment, though... again, in 500 years, the Right has only actually been carried out 17 times, so that should tell you how much of a last-resort it really is. Meredith could claim no abominations, no proof of blood magic inside the tower, nothing except her runnaway Crazy Apostate problem, which the Right Of Annulment won't help anyway.

...by the end of the game Meredeith <check for spoiler forum> is mad from the idol and like Bartrand paranoid and violent because of it. She's not being all that reasonable but then again she shouldn't be.

[Sidney]

DreamerM wrote...

The wonky Veil might even be a reason why the Kirkwall Circle should have more vigilent guards and keep their mages on a shorter leash then the average Circle. But it should definitely be carefully done. And it's no job for anyone inclined to paranoia.

I would think given the info that we now know, and it is unclear if anyone else knew it, that NO circle should be located in Kirkwall because of the Veil problem. Clearly there are not circles everywhere so transporting mages is something that is a known commodity.

[DreamerM]

Sidney wrote...

...by the end of the game Meredeith <check for spoiler forum> is mad from the idol and like Bartrand paranoid and violent because of it. She's not being all that reasonable but then again she shouldn't be.

Alas, "TEH CRAZYSTICK MADE HER DO IT" is a very, very, very lame motivation for anyone. Meredith would have been a lot more interesting without the crazystick.