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[EmperorSahlertz]

It isn't common knowledge that the Kirkwall veil is severely damaged. The Kirkwall Circle was housed there for the simple reason it had a huge empty building which could serve the purpose.
And Cullen isn't crazy. I really don't understand why people keep talking about him as if he is. He may hold some more or less extreme view points about mages, but he isn't crazy. He is actually one of the few Templars we get to meet who shows a reasonable interpretation of the Templars' duties.
Meredith calls for the annulment of the Kirkwall Circle on the simple basis that she has lost all sorts of control over it. Mages are leaving/fleeing left and right, and even plotting with her subordinates to overthrow her. All of which can be used to justify an annulment.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Meredith calls for the annulment of the Kirkwall Circle on the simple basis that she has lost all sorts of control over it. Mages are leaving/fleeing left and right, and even plotting with her subordinates to overthrow her. All of which can be used to justify an annulment.

Except I got the feeling from DA:O that the Right's purpose is to protect the public from Mages Gone Wild. Gregior sent for the Rite because, well, blood mages had attacked and killed several people, there were Abominations wandering the halls, and there was a definite risk to the public involved if the threat was not contained.

Meredith would invoke the Right not to protect the public, but to protect her own personal power. She has made too many enemies, and pushed even her own supporters away from her, and for this, she has nobody to blame but herself. Not that she sees it that way. The Crazystick has convinced her that any threat to her power is a threat to her "duty" and must be malicious in nature, caused by blood magic and corruption.

Corruption. Look in the mirror, Crazy-Stick Lady.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is. It could also be argued that whenever control over a circle is lost, the public is endangered. Which would merit an annulment.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It is. It could also be argued that whenever control over a circle is lost, the public is endangered. Which would merit an annulment.

 If a circle fails because of mismanagement, and there is sufficient evident that it was mismanaged, then actually, the best thing for the Public would be the removal of the failed Commander and moving quickly to win back the trust of the Circle Mages. Circles do need the trust of the public to survive: few are going to want to send their mage-blooded children into a horrible situation, and Apostates might be more willing to turn themselves in if they knew they'd be treated fairly.

The whole benefit of the Circle concept is that it's supposed to be a safe place where the Mages can learn to use their skills and live their lives in relative peace. A mage who joins the circle surrenders their freedom, but in exchange, they are supposed to get security.

The mages in Meredith's care were anything but safe. Too many stories of "random" Rites of Tranquility, too many incidents of torture, too many drugs and being locked in their rooms for days at a time. Anybody could tell you that the Kirkwall Circle isn't fit place for man or beast, and you don't have to be a mage or the loved-one of a mage to want to do something about it. That was where the Mage Underground came from.

[TEWR]

DreamerM wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It is. It could also be argued that whenever control over a circle is lost, the public is endangered. Which would merit an annulment.

 If a circle fails because of mismanagement, and there is sufficient evident that it was mismanaged, then actually, the best thing for the Public would be the removal of the failed Commander and moving quickly to win back the trust of the Circle Mages. Circles do need the trust of the public to survive: few are going to want to send their mage-blooded children into a horrible situation, and Apostates might be more willing to turn themselves in if they knew they'd be treated fairly.

The whole benefit of the Circle concept is that it's supposed to be a safe place where the Mages can learn to use their skills and live their lives in relative peace. A mage who joins the circle surrenders their freedom, but in exchange, they are supposed to get security.

The mages in Meredith's care were anything but safe. Too many stories of "random" Rites of Tranquility, too many incidents of torture, too many drugs and being locked in their rooms for days at a time. Anybody could tell you that the Kirkwall Circle isn't fit place for man or beast, and you don't have to be a mage or the loved-one of a mage to want to do something about it. That was where the Mage Underground came from.

THIS. this is exactly what I said either on this thread somewhere or another one. It isn't the fault of the mages at all.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
THIS. this is exactly what I said either on this thread somewhere or another one. It isn't the fault of the mages at all.

I'm not going to absolve the mages of all responsibility. There were tons of blood mages around, after all, they would have still had to constantly be on the look out for crazy mages. But the problem was far from unmanagable, if only handled sensibly.

And if there was one thing Meredith lacked, it was sense.

[EmperorSahlertz]

What happened in Kirkwall? Did the Templars start? Or was it the rebellious mages which caused the Templars to crackdown on them? We can't know for sure. What we do know however is, that the Circle was out of control. Due to both Meredith and Orsino. Kirkwall was an amalgamation of worst case scenarios. Sort of what happens when the unstoppable force meets the immoveable object.
Rather than try and work out the kinks around Kirkwall, Meredith found it more efficient to simply call blank slate and start over.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What happened in Kirkwall? Did the Templars start? Or was it the rebellious mages which caused the Templars to crackdown on them? We can't know for sure.

For sure, no, but we can sketch out the situation. We know Meredith's reputation as a hard-liner and power-player was firmly cemented before the Champion even arrived in Kirkwall. According to Orsino's Codex, he's one of the youngest First Enchanters in Thedas, although that may be less because of his skill as a mage and more because nobody else wanted the job. I wouldn't put it past Meredith to have run out at least one, probably more, previous First Enchanters who weren't as scrappy as Orsino.

This points towards Meredith being very, very difficult for mages to deal with even before the crazystick.

And Orsino's blood magic, as horrifying as it was, was after-the-fact. He said he'd abandoned it for being too evil. it wasn't until the absolute last moment of his despair that he resorted to the last tool he had left.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What we do know however is, that the Circle was out of control.

See, I do not see that the Circle was out of control at all. It was the City, around the Circle, that was out of control. The Mage Underground had organized in resistance to the well-known abuses against Circle Mages, and more and more apostates were turning to blood magic, out of desperation, self-preservation, or curiosity.

By making the Circle a place where no sane mage would willingly live, Meredith unleashed the most dangerous mages on the City itself. And she was too blind to see it.

[Plaintiff]

I'm not sure all the mages ARE insane. Quentin is the only clear-cut example. Tarohne could just be pissed.

In any  case, the game provides us with several sympathetic mages who, being party characters, have a lot more plot relevance than any of the antagonists. If Anders spending seven years of his life helping the sick and wounded in an underground clinic isn't enough to demonstrate that mages are worth saving, then I dunno what to tell you.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 juin 2011 - 01:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

One mage doing good weighs no more heavily than one mage doing evil.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

One mage doing good weighs no more heavily than one mage doing evil.

By that logic, we should nuke ourselves off the face of the planet because history clearly shows that our atrocities far outstrip any decent qualities we might possess.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Quite the contrary actually. History shows us that DESPITE our depravities we are still able to be decent people. Far more people on the face of our planet goes through life never commiting any atrocity. Those few who does are often persecuted and/or despised. However, we do have an odd habit of emphasizing all the wrongs of our lives, instead of focusing on all the good which constantly happen all around us.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

One mage doing good weighs no more heavily than one mage doing evil.

That's a matter of opinion.

I'd rather trust people until they give me a reason not to, then assume the opposite.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I was merely pointing out that if you go by the logic, that Anders alone could serve as a reason to save all mages everywhere, then Quintin could serve as a reason to kill all mages everywhere.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was merely pointing out that if you go by the logic, that Anders alone could serve as a reason to save all mages everywhere, then Quintin could serve as a reason to kill all mages everywhere.

I'm not sure I'd use the mentally unstable Abomination as an example of Mage Sainthood, but it's also up to you which one you value more highly: someone's capacity to do Good or someone's capacity to do Evil?

Modifié par DreamerM, 25 juin 2011 - 02:08 .

[Sidney]

DreamerM wrote...

Sidney wrote...

...by the end of the game Meredeith <check for spoiler forum> is mad from the idol and like Bartrand paranoid and violent because of it. She's not being all that reasonable but then again she shouldn't be.

Alas, "TEH CRAZYSTICK MADE HER DO IT" is a very, very, very lame motivation for anyone. Meredith would have been a lot more interesting without the crazystick.

Well the stick based on both her and Bartrand appears to make existing bad traits/impulses more pronounced. Meredeith already suspected/disliked the mages the idol just pushed that to a tipping point.

Still, I agree she'd have been better without the crazy because there was more than enough evidence the circle was corrupted to justofy her fears.

[Sidney]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not sure all the mages ARE insane. Quentin is the only clear-cut example. Tarohne could just be pissed.

Tarohne seems pretty BSC to me

Still people asked why "All" mages seem nuts. Well all the ones we run into are nuts because they are the troublemakers so our sample is obviously biased heavily towards to "bad seeds".

You see a ton of "generic" mages in various moments that are just part of the circle and appear to have all 4 wheels on the pavement but there's no focus on the boring ones who just go about their days in the circle.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was merely pointing out that if you go by the logic, that Anders alone could serve as a reason to save all mages everywhere, then Quintin could serve as a reason to kill all mages everywhere.

Except that "mages are worth saving" is not at all the same thing as "every mage everywhere must be allowed to live", certainly there are some that are evil, just as there are some evil templars. Condemning an entire group to death for the actions of individuals within it is what we call bigotry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Then Anders doing good does not mean "mages are worth saving". It simply means "Anders is worth saving". You could then broaden it and say: "Some mages do good". Which would translate into "some mages are worth saving".

[DreamerM]

Sidney wrote...

Still, I agree she'd have been better without the crazy because there was more than enough evidence the circle was corrupted to justofy her fears.

If she had actually cared about this "evidence" I'd give her more credit. As it is, she only went looking for corruption after the fact.

I imagine that maybe Meredith didn't start out as crazy as she became. A Knight Commander needs to be able to confront Blood Magic with strength, but without letting it get to them. Kirkwall's circle may not have been more "corrupt" then the average circle, but every little incident would blow up in Meredith's imagination until she was seeing abominations and blood magic everywhere.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Kirkwall Circle have always had a higher rate of blood mages, failed harrowings and abominations than any other Circle. All courtesy of the ancient Tevinters.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then Anders doing good does not mean "mages are worth saving". It simply means "Anders is worth saving". You could then broaden it and say: "Some mages do good". Which would translate into "some mages are worth saving".

Yeah, no. As with any group, the mage population has decent people, jerks and everything in between. Mages as a group are worth saving because the only way to be fair is to presume innocence until proven guilty. Assessing each of them on an individual basis is impractical and unjust, as it assumes guilt. Thus, mages are worth saving by default.

[Plaintiff]

DreamerM wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Still, I agree she'd have been better without the crazy because there was more than enough evidence the circle was corrupted to justofy her fears.

If she had actually cared about this "evidence" I'd give her more credit. As it is, she only went looking for corruption after the fact.

I imagine that maybe Meredith didn't start out as crazy as she became. A Knight Commander needs to be able to confront Blood Magic with strength, but without letting it get to them. Kirkwall's circle may not have been more "corrupt" then the average circle, but every little incident would blow up in Meredith's imagination until she was seeing abominations and blood magic everywhere.

Meredith is Kirkwall's Loghain, ignoring clear and present danger in favour of looking for monsters under her bed.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Kirkwall Circle have always had a higher rate of blood mages, failed harrowings and abominations than any other Circle. All courtesy of the ancient Tevinters.

We don't know how much of this WAS actually courtesy of the Tevinters vs. how much was a result of Circle mismanagement. Mages locked in their rooms for days and subjected to who knows what kind of treatment aren't going to be in good shape for a Harrowing. Templar paranoid about mage power might even curtail how much training the mages get, leaving them less able to defend themselves against demons, or with restless minds that might actually seek out a demon in a misguided attempt to get knowledge they aren't receiving otherwise.

Modifié par DreamerM, 25 juin 2011 - 03:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

If it was a case of mismanagement it would have to be mismanagement from the inception of the Kirkwall Circle. I doubt that.
The mages weren't locked in their rooms and isolated until the events of DA2.