626 réponses à ce sujet

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I love how Orsino goes on about blood magic being wrong and Meredith having no justification for making them prisoners and then uses blood magic to turn himself into a demon in about 2 seconds, until DA2 I had thought that a demon taking over a mage was a gradual process but apparently its not

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If it was a case of mismanagement it would have to be mismanagement from the inception of the Kirkwall Circle. I doubt that.
The mages weren't locked in their rooms and isolated until the events of DA2.

The mismangement is everywhere considering every circle rose up into rebellion. The templars in idiotcy incompetence and zealotry have endangerd the lives of all normal humans. All senior members of the templars should be executed for such offenses and the templars disbanded and locked up because their lyrium induced mental instability is a danger for a all normal humans 

[Areksu]

According to the lore, the fade is weak inside of Kirkwall because of its terrible history, so there is the reason for all the cultists and insane mages at the start. Its just easier to contact demons in Kirkwall because of that. The other issue is that the circle in Kirkwall is a prison designed to psychologically terrorize mages. The circle in Fereldan is better than Kirkwall's in that it creates a hospitable, yet controlled environment to train young mages. The templars aren't actively antagonistic to the mages there, and the source of the conflict at the mage tower was not blood magic, but Logaine convincing a few unstable mages to rebel.
Most of the templar/mage conflict would be resolved if they just moved the circle outside the city limits and didn't design the place with statuary meant to intimidate mages. The other half of the problem could be solved with the help of the mages, as they just need to build up the veil in Kirkwall. So, what is standing in the way of this? The templars actively antagonize the mages as though they are some unified organization and not individuals coming from very different walks of life.

And on the issue of the blood mage that killed Hawke's mother, I wanted to say one of two responses to Meredith:
1) Yes, a blood mage killed my mother and he was brought to justice. Your point being? If I had defended my mother successfully, you would just bring up another half dozen people who died due to blood magic in the city. Neither your templars nor I am omnipotent. We cannot defend everyone from madmen. We can only do our best to prevent such attrocities when we have the chance to do so.
2) And I also heard that your templars fell to blood magic and demons as well. It seems you are genuinely incapable of defending your own against blood mages. Not only this, but your methods have only increased the number of blood mages in the city. Your solution to the problem is to create an environment that generates more magically endowed madmen?

I'd then work some political magic and make the city rebel against the current templar rule, giving every templar and mage the chance to join my forces with the promise of social reform or learn what its like to be on the receiving end of an "exalted march."

But of course the game doesn't let me respond the way I'd want to.

Modifié par Areksu, 25 juin 2011 - 04:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If it was a case of mismanagement it would have to be mismanagement from the inception of the Kirkwall Circle. I doubt that.
The mages weren't locked in their rooms and isolated until the events of DA2.

The mismangement is everywhere considering every circle rose up into rebellion. The templars in idiotcy incompetence and zealotry have endangerd the lives of all normal humans. All senior members of the templars should be executed for such offenses and the templars disbanded and locked up because their lyrium induced mental instability is a danger for a all normal humans 

An advocate of the Stalin-model of competence evaluation and correction, I see.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If it was a case of mismanagement
it would have to be mismanagement from the inception of the Kirkwall
Circle. I doubt that.The mages weren't locked in their rooms and
isolated until the events of DA2.

Do you know this for certain? How
many years ago did Meredith become Knight Commander? We don't know
exactly when the abuses began. Maybe they even pre-date Meredith. She just took them further. And further. And further...

DinoSteve wrote...

I love how Orsino goes on about blood magic being wrong and Meredith having no justification for making them prisoners and then uses blood magic to turn himself into a demon in about 2 seconds, until DA2 I had thought that a demon taking over a mage was a gradual process but apparently its not

This is where accusations the game was "rushed" come from. We were given no indication, ever, that Orsino was anything other then a reasonable man trying his best to protect his people. His Blood Magic/Necromancy transformation came outta freakin' nowhere, in a lame attempt to balance out Meredith's game-long marathon of crazy.

So yeah. That should have been done better. Oh well.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The blame does not lie solely with the Templars. Wether or not the abuses was present before Meredith isn't as important as the fact that the mages of Kirkwall have always been prone to blood magic and demon summoning. Kirkwall have always been unstable, both for the Templars and the mages. And yes, the fact that the Gallows themselves is designed (by the Tevinters, not the Templars) to break the will of its inhabitants can't have helped the issue.

[DreamerM]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The blame does not lie solely with the Templars. Wether or not the abuses was present before Meredith isn't as important as the fact that the mages of Kirkwall have always been prone to blood magic and demon summoning.

And we the players know this is because of the Wonky Veil. It's no proof that the mages themselves are any more blood thirsty or power-hungry then they usually are. Any Circle is going to have to deal with blood magic and demon summoning, and usually they manage it without resorting to lock-downs and torture.

[TEWR]

DinoSteve wrote...

I love how Orsino goes on about blood magic being wrong and Meredith having no justification for making them prisoners and then uses blood magic to turn himself into a demon in about 2 seconds, until DA2 I had thought that a demon taking over a mage was a gradual process but apparently its not

I don't recall him saying blood magic was evil. I do recall him saying Quentin's research was too evil, but that's only Quentin's research. Which while Blood Magic, it isn't the same as him saying blood magic is evil.

I got the feeling he wasn't a serious blood mage. Considering we learn so little about him, there isn't enough of an indication to point to him being one. For all we know he never did blood magic like he claims in the Templar side, and Quentin gave him a very detailed report on how to go from Orsino to Harvestino.

So, blame ****** poor development on the game being rushed and not Orsino.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2011 - 07:48 .

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Somewhat from the left field, but... maybe the discomforts associated with being the mage (demons' attempts to possess them and whatever else is there, or simply just whatever it is that makes the mages able to do magic) actually do drive most of the mages insane over time, and that's the reason why there's so many of them in DA2? This thread presumes it's lazy writing and that majority of mages should be perfectly sane, but what if the writing plain portays the things the way they *are*?

"are "they in DAO? the answer is no. its just lazy writing. you meet so many idiots in the game (non-ages included) that i just wish i could nuke kirkwall and then burn it fire to be safe. Many things make no damn sense in the game.

Didn't half the Ferelden circle turn into demon worshipping lunatics?

No, few turned into blood-mages ( who believed loghain was going to help them) they never turned into demons and they defended themself against them( point to the blood-mages  the warden kills while they were fighting an abomination), some mages were torture until they got a demon inside, Some like wynne and the mage inside the closet scape, the rest of the mages died while trying to defend agaisnt the abominations.

Cullen got lucky because the shield got him protected am sure if the warden never had come, he would  probably have been a demon/abomination( you see.. he had desires*) <-Thats bad:whistle:

[TEWR]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


I don't recall him saying blood magic was evil. I do recall him saying Quentin's research was too evil, but that's only Quentin's research. Which while Blood Magic, it isn't the same as him saying blood magic is evil.

I got the feeling he wasn't a serious blood mage. Considering we learn so little about him, there isn't enough of an indication to point to him being one. For all we know he never did blood magic like he claims in the Templar side, and Quentin gave him a very detailed report on how to go from Orsino to Harvestino.

So, blame ****** poor development on the game being rushed and not Orsino.

Orsino seemed so reasonable. Some people keep their anger reigned in until they can't take it any more and explodes - maybe it's possible to be like this with crazy too. In one moment, he's a person with a stable, if dull job and a lovely family, who always gives a welcoming basket of fruit to new neighbours - and in the next he has you drugged and strapped to the kitchen table, wearing nothing but fetish gear and a Lincoln hat while he's gouging out your eyeballs and praying to the Great One-Legged Ostrich.

Yes you can keep insanity bottled up and then it explodes one day. Maybe without your knowledge. It's happened to me sometimes. Though it's my opinion that everyone is ****ed up in their own little ****ed up ways.


But still, there's no reason why Orsino should've gone Harvestino for a pro-mage Hawke. Blood magic? Sure, understandable way to survive against the Templars. Mindless super-abomination? Hell no. When I met him in Act 2's climax and he was arguing against Meredith then, despite it being a bad time to do that, I respected him. And I grew to respect him even more in Act 3. He became one of my favorite characters in the game from what little I knew about him.


And then he goes super-abomination for no reason on me!


I hate that Bioware took that route. And this isn't a "I hate you for doing that Bioware but I love you for it" type of hate. It's just a "Really Bioware? I hate you for that." type of hate.


I think Bioware needs to retcon Orsino's death for pro-mage playthroughs.

[Raygereio]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
The man just makes me scratch my head in confusion. Nothing of his previous characterization suggests that he would think that turning himself into a super-abomination would in any way be a good idea

That moment succeded in making me facepalm so hard I knocked myself out my chair.

At least when you're on the Templar's side there's a possible reason. He's facing Hawke - badass extraordinair - and is backed into a corner. There's still no build up to this and it's still a stupid thing to do (why use blood magic to turn yourself into a mindless freak, when you could have.. oh... I dunno... used that same blood magic to take control of the templar's bodies?), but at least there's something vaguely resembling a reason.
When your on the mage's side and have just curbstomped the first of the templar's assaults, Orsino decides to take a ride on the crazy-train because he has nothing better to do apparently.

Modifié par Raygereio, 26 juin 2011 - 01:50 .

[Sidney]

Raygereio wrote...

At least when you're on the Templar's side there's a possible reason. He's facing Hawke - badass extraordinair - and is backed into a corner. There's still no build up to this and it's still a stupid thing to do (why use blood magic to turn yourself into a mindless freak, when you could have.. oh... I dunno... used that same blood magic to take control of the templar's bodies?), but at least there's something vaguely resembling a reason.
When your on the mage's side and have just curbstomped the first of the templar's assaults, Orsino decides to take a ride on the crazy-train because he has nothing better to do apparently.

Worst moment in the game to me for just the same reaosns you said.

They should have either had you face Meredith OR Orinso as the final baddies depending upon your side but not both no matter your side. At the very least, give me a shot to talk Orsino down when he looks around and shaken by what he's seen threatens to lose it. If Orsino goes down because of the Veil making him nuts so be it but there's no indication he's lost it before that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

People still criticize the writing for making Orsino go Harvester at the end (or pro-mage), but they rarely ask themselves why Orsino was researching this and putting the lives of everyone under his charge at risk in the first place.

Once it's established that he's stupid enough to research something like that under the circumstances that he's in when it's of limited utility and use, then him being stupid enough to turn himself into it doesn't matter as much.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

People still criticize the writing for making Orsino go Harvester at the end (or pro-mage), but they rarely ask themselves why Orsino was researching this and putting the lives of everyone under his charge at risk in the first place.

Once it's established that he's stupid enough to research something like that under the circumstances that he's in when it's of limited utility and use, then him being stupid enough to turn himself into it doesn't matter as much.

I don't think he was researching how to turn into a Harvester. I think he wanted to know about necromancy and blood magic, but when Quentin said "Hey look what I found out! Don't ask me how I found it out though, 'cause even I don't know!" I think that's when he backed up and said "This cat's one Archdemon short of a Blight".

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

People still criticize the writing for making Orsino go Harvester at the end (or pro-mage), but they rarely ask themselves why Orsino was researching this and putting the lives of everyone under his charge at risk in the first place.

It's boring in the Circle.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Writer redux
So Orsino was stupid enough to help Quentin research about things that he didn't know of?
And still took the time to learn how to become a harvester, because he didn't have something better to do?

@ ipgd
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation. Afterall, a tear in the veil has become an explanation for everything.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Writer redux
So Orsino was stupid enough to help Quentin research about things that he didn't know of?
And still took the time to learn how to become a harvester, because he didn't have something better to do?

@ ipgd
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation. Afterall, a tear in the veil has become an explanation for everything.

Well, my comment about Quentin going "Don't ask me how I know though!" was a joke. I don't know how he could've discovered that short of finding records of Amgarrak, which I would think are hard to find.


I imagine for Orsino he was given a "package" in the mail. He opens it, reads a report from Quentin, and when he's done says "that's ****ed up."


Then, he remembers the ritual come Act 3's ending.

[KnightofPhoenix]

So he's a super genius capable of learning an obscure experiment from a single reading of a vague report. And then remember it when his mood is blue.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 04:12 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So he's a super genius capable of learning an obscure experiment from a single reading of a vague report. And then remember it when his mood is blue.

Eidetic memory? I never said the report was vague, I said it was a report. For all we know it was throroughly detailed, wrapped up in something, and delivered to Orsino's desk.


I can remember entire plotlines for video game series that spanned 8 games, and are still going strong.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea I am sure remembering plotlines is very similar to knowing exactly how to do an obscure ritual to turn yourself into a harvester.

Don't buy it. And if the writers resort to that kind of explanation, it wouldn't make the writing of the whole thing any less idiotic.

[TEWR]

I'm not saying it's a perfect comparison, but photographic memory is possible for many things.

And like I said, we don't know what Quentin actually said. It could've been a very thorough report.

Also, all Orsino did was slit his wrists and bodies were drawn to him. Not all that complicated. It's not like he had to remember 5 pages of incantations.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Because the experiment that required a Tevinter magister and research to create in the first place, turned out to be as easy as slitting your wrist and having a few corpses around.

Again, entirely idiotic situation.