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[TEWR]

All Amgarrak did was bind a Fade spirit to a flesh golem.


Which, sadly, goes in line with the thin Veil excuse of how a Fade spirit possessed Orsino and corpses galore.

[Sidney]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I am sure remembering plotlines is very similar to knowing exactly how to do an obscure ritual to turn yourself into a harvester.

He's a mage. Studying arcane rituals is what he does. Your logic is like saying he wouldn't be able to discuss Renaissance Iconography after reading about it if he's an Art Historian. Yes, Renaissance Iconography is obscure but to an expert in the field it can me made sense of and applied. I don't see how this is what can even begin to bother you.

[Harid]

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I am sure remembering plotlines is very similar to knowing exactly how to do an obscure ritual to turn yourself into a harvester.

He's a mage. Studying arcane rituals is what he does. Your logic is like saying he wouldn't be able to discuss Renaissance Iconography after reading about it if he's an Art Historian. Yes, Renaissance Iconography is obscure but to an expert in the field it can me made sense of and applied. I don't see how this is what can even begin to bother you.

When you have a crazy templar accusing you of harboring Blood Mages, it's kind of stupid to then research blood magic?

Keep in mind he had to be doing this for years, ultimately proving the crazy templar right.

You can't glance over something like this and just pick it up.  He would have to have actually tested this, or something which made the whole thing kinda poorly put together.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juin 2011 - 04:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All Amgarrak did was bind a Fade spirit to a flesh golem.

Which, sadly, goes in line with the thin Veil excuse of how a Fade spirit possessed Orsino and corpses galore.

Amgarrak was as stupid.

Sidney wrote...
He's
a mage. Studying arcane rituals is what he does. Your logic is like
saying he wouldn't be able to discuss Renaissance Iconography after
reading about it if he's an Art Historian. Yes, Renaissance Iconography
is obscure but to an expert in the field it can me made sense of and
applied. I don't see how this is what can even begin to bother you.

Except he isn't discussing, he is using it. Yea, reading about renaissance art alone does not make one a renaissance artist.

So I am supposed to believe that from one reading of Quentin's research (that he apparently loves judging from his letter), he is able to know exactly how to use it, when he didn't even want to use or learn it? 
Yea, that bothers me. As it doesn't make the entire situation any less idiotic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 04:37 .

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Writer redux
So Orsino was stupid enough to help Quentin research about things that he didn't know of?
And still took the time to learn how to become a harvester, because he didn't have something better to do?

@ ipgd
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the explanation. Afterall, a tear in the veil has become an explanation for everything.

Veil tearing and Pure Lyrium Idols.

There's no reason for character motivation when plot devices are easier.

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I am sure remembering plotlines is very similar to knowing exactly how to do an obscure ritual to turn yourself into a harvester.

He's a mage. Studying arcane rituals is what he does. Your logic is like saying he wouldn't be able to discuss Renaissance Iconography after reading about it if he's an Art Historian. Yes, Renaissance Iconography is obscure but to an expert in the field it can me made sense of and applied. I don't see how this is what can even begin to bother you.

When you have a crazy templar accusing you of harboring Blood Mages, it's kind of stupid to then research blood magic?

Keep in mind he had to be doing this for years, ultimately proving the crazy templar right.

Researching blood magic doesn't make you a blood mage unless you need to practice blood magic to get something right (Adralla). And since I don't think going Harvester is reversible, I think it's safe to say he wasn't practicing it.


Of course, to a lunatic Templar who is gripped by paranoia, sure there's not much difference. But Meredith didn't start playing the "harboring blood mages" card until Act 3, long after Quentin had been killed.

[TEWR]

that he apparently loves judging from his letter

There is nothing to indicate that what Orsino loved in that letter was in fact the Harvester ritual. We don't know how old that letter is and what type of correspondence the two had prior to ATR. For all we know it could've been from when Quentin was first researching blood magic and necromancy.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I am sure remembering plotlines is very similar to knowing exactly how to do an obscure ritual to turn yourself into a harvester.

He's a mage. Studying arcane rituals is what he does. Your logic is like saying he wouldn't be able to discuss Renaissance Iconography after reading about it if he's an Art Historian. Yes, Renaissance Iconography is obscure but to an expert in the field it can me made sense of and applied. I don't see how this is what can even begin to bother you.

When you have a crazy templar accusing you of harboring Blood Mages, it's kind of stupid to then research blood magic?

Keep in mind he had to be doing this for years, ultimately proving the crazy templar right.

Researching blood magic doesn't make you a blood mage unless you need to practice blood magic to get something right (Adralla). And since I don't think going Harvester is reversible, I think it's safe to say he wasn't practicing it.


Of course, to a lunatic Templar who is gripped by paranoia, sure there's not much difference. But Meredith didn't start playing the "harboring blood mages" card until Act 3, long after Quentin had been killed.

It's hard for me to beleive that he could use such a spell without practicing it first, because he had no guarantee or prior knowledge such a spell would work at all.

And so far we've only seen one mage who was researching Blood magic and not actually using it out of the. . .100 or so mages we've run across, so I am not certain one could use one exception to prove a rule.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All Amgarrak did was bind a Fade spirit to a flesh golem.

Which, sadly, goes in line with the thin Veil excuse of how a Fade spirit possessed Orsino and corpses galore.

Amgarrak was as stupid.

forgot to comment on this part but...

How so?

[TEWR]

So it's hard for you to believe that he didn't practice a spell that turns someone into a mindless super abomination? Sure, whatever.


As for Adralla, I think she had to be a bonafide blood mage because her litany would only work if she practiced the arcane field

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All Amgarrak did was bind a Fade spirit to a flesh golem.

Which, sadly, goes in line with the thin Veil excuse of how a Fade spirit possessed Orsino and corpses galore.

Amgarrak was as stupid.

forgot to comment on this part but...

How so?

For being a useless DLC and an experiment for a creature they were going to use for DA2, in the same vein as Witch Hunt was with the elven creature.

And for being the same old cliche of "experiment gone wrong" that we've seen a million times before.

[Sidney]

Harid wrote...

It's hard for me to beleive that he could use such a spell without practicing it first, because he had no guarantee or prior knowledge such a spell would work at all.

It couldn't be used as practice but then again what's her name impales herself to cast some blood magic spell and I have my doubts she was doing a lot of practice on that either. Then again blood magic has a ton of problems on the lines of exsanguination or sepsis that isn't gone into very well.

[DreamerM]

Raygereio wrote...
When your on the mage's side and have just curbstomped the first of the templar's assaults, Orsino decides to take a ride on the crazy-train because he has nothing better to do apparently.

Well, to be fair, we did get a CUTSCENE of the mages getting royally pwned outside the tower....which makes me wonder why Hawke, Orsino and crew weren't out THERE rather then cooling their heels in that platform in the pit-looking place. What was that supposed to be, anyway? Seems to me like a great place to put the apprentices, nice and difficult for the Templar to reach, while the offensive wave greets the enemy from points of advantage outside.

If the situation was really dire enough to break Orsino like that, then it REALLY needed more build-up. We saw him face his slaughtered mages outside the Vicount's keep without wigging out. Maybe 2ed time was the charm?

Or even if it was a confrontation with Meredith herself that did it: maybe Meredith kills some mageling right in front of Orsino and he goes all mental. Or even just a threat from her, she'll make sure he lives to see every single mage and mageling in his tower dead, all from his own stubborn foolishness.

I mean, it was never a "good" idea, but c'mon BioWare, there are better ways to do it!

[Sidney]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except he isn't discussing, he is using it. Yea, reading about renaissance art alone does not make one a renaissance artist.

Mechanics learn to repair cars by reading about it in training or manuals. It isn't like the concept of reading about somnething to learn to do it is new.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So it's hard for you to believe that he didn't practice a spell that turns someone into a mindless super abomination? Sure, whatever.


As for Adralla, I think she had to be a bonafide blood mage because her litany would only work if she practiced the arcane field

Do you have knowledge of Organic Chemistry?  Could you make an ester that smells of pineapple from instructions in a book?

You would need some basal knowledge of organic chemistry to do this, or you would get some other chemical from trying.

As such, yes, it makes no sense that he could in one shot, without knowledge or desire to test that knowledge would make that ester in one shot, and much akin to that, it's hard for me to believe that he could use that stupid spell in one shot to 100% success.

Which is what made the entire situation kinda stupid to me.  Bioware just wanted to make you fight an epic boss and didn't really think about putting it together properly.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All Amgarrak did was bind a Fade spirit to a flesh golem.

Which, sadly, goes in line with the thin Veil excuse of how a Fade spirit possessed Orsino and corpses galore.

Amgarrak was as stupid.

forgot to comment on this part but...

How so?

For being a useless DLC and an experiment for a creature they were going to use for DA2, in the same vein as Witch Hunt was with the elven creature.

And for being the same old cliche of "experiment gone wrong" that we've seen a million times before.

Hmmm.... true. I do recall somewhere that it was stated Amgarrak was a test for the Harvester.


As for it being a cliche, I haven't seen that used much so I wouldn't have thought of it as one.

[Harid]

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except he isn't discussing, he is using it. Yea, reading about renaissance art alone does not make one a renaissance artist.

Mechanics learn to repair cars by reading about it in training or manuals. It isn't like the concept of reading about somnething to learn to do it is new.

Most mechanics actually learn hands on. . .with a real car.  Really bad example.

[Sidney]

DreamerM wrote...

If the situation was really dire enough to break Orsino like that, then it REALLY needed more build-up. We saw him face his slaughtered mages outside the Vicount's keep without wigging out. Maybe 2ed time was the charm?

I would guess if you asked the writers they'd say you beat an advance guard or a detachment but the full might of the Templars still hasn't fallen on the Gallows yet. Orsino would know that and be preparing for the final fight. There's an element of truth there since you don't beat the templars they lose because they turn their backs on Meredith when she goes all BSC. It isn't an terrible explaination but the timing of Orsino goesn't nuts is generously awkward more likely awful.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except he isn't discussing, he is using it. Yea, reading about renaissance art alone does not make one a renaissance artist.

Mechanics learn to repair cars by reading about it in training or manuals. It isn't like the concept of reading about somnething to learn to do it is new.

I highly doubt that them reading one report, allows them to pull off an obscure mechanical feat when they didn't even want to learn it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 04:56 .

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So it's hard for you to believe that he didn't practice a spell that turns someone into a mindless super abomination? Sure, whatever.


As for Adralla, I think she had to be a bonafide blood mage because her litany would only work if she practiced the arcane field

Do you have knowledge of Organic Chemistry?  Could you make an ester that smells of pineapple from instructions in a book?

You would need some basal knowledge of organic chemistry to do this, or you would get some other chemical from trying.

As such, yes, it makes no sense that he could in one shot, without knowledge or desire to test that knowledge would make that ester in one shot, and much akin to that, it's hard for me to believe that he could use that stupid spell in one shot to 100% success.

Which is what made the entire situation kinda stupid to me.  Bioware just wanted to make you fight an epic boss and didn't really think about putting it together properly.

Apples and oranges. No, blueberries and watermelons.


Does making an ester make you mindless? No. Is going Harvester reversible? No. Can you practice making an ester until you get it perfect? Yes. Can you practice turning into a mindless super abomination until you get that perfect, and then reverse it, so you can do it again later? NO.


Which leads me to believe that Quentin gave a very thorough and incredibly detailed report on turning into a Harvester. And that Orsino has an eidetic memory.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 juin 2011 - 04:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Which leads me to believe that Quentin gave a very thorough and incredibly detailed report on turning into a Harvester.

Which Orsino learned in one reading, when he didn't even want to. Because he's that damn good.

[Sidney]

Harid wrote...

Most mechanics actually learn hands on. . .with a real car.  Really bad example.

Really not true anymore. They spend a lot of time in class rooms and demos to learn to do and then apply that knowledge.

Most things are perfected by doing but at some point someone only knows how to do accounting from reading a book.  I leanred how to build kitchen cabinets from a book. I learned how to use Word and Excel from a book. Again, the notion that you don't learn from books or written materials sort of flies in the face of thousands of years of education.

[Sidney]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I highly doubt that them reading one report, allows them to pull off an obscure mechanical feat when they didn't even want to learn it.

How many manauls to fixing an intake manifold do you think they have to read to fix the thing?

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Apples and oranges. No, blueberries and watermelons.


Does making an ester make you mindless? No. Is going Harvester reversible? No. Can you practice making an ester until you get it perfect? Yes. Can you practice turning into a mindless super abomination until you get that perfect, and then reverse it, so you can do it again later? NO.


Which leads me to believe that Quentin gave a very thorough and incredibly detailed report on turning into a Harvester. And that Orsino has an eidetic memory.

Ok, so how did Quentin make this report without the ability to test it himself, verify it himself, and make sure it works in the first place, himself?  We meet Quentin as a regular crazy blood mage mind you, based on your own qualifications, this spell's very origin makes no sense.

The ester thing was an example at applying knowledge.  Nothing in real life is going to be point for point comparable.

The spell was stupid.

Not even going to go into how Orsino learned it in one shot without basal knowledge of necromancy/blood magic.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juin 2011 - 05:01 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Which leads me to believe that Quentin gave a very thorough and incredibly detailed report on turning into a Harvester.

Which Orsino learned in one reading, when he didn't even want to. Because he's that damn good.

Maybe Orsino read it all, which is what I'm arguing here. He read the entire report, which was thoroughly detailed, and was able to remember it.


People remember different things. I said I can remember plotlines. I can also remember things from when I was 2, like when I cracked my skull open on a radiator because I fell. That was horrifying to me. I had to get stitches done. And horrifying things do tend to stick with people.

Given Orsino's comments on the ritual being too evil, I'm led to believe he was horrified by it.