626 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

They'd follow her orders because she's so cute. They'd worship her. And Isabela would teach her how to command men.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Foolsfolly wrote...

You may have a point, KoP. But that bit of near last minute dialogue put all of Meredith's actions and ideals into perspective. I understood why she behaved like she did.

There's nothing similar to Orsino. He's just a nercomancer, blood mage who supports serial killing mad men for reasons we can only guess at because he never explains why ever.

Yea, but I'd argue that the few seconds of Meredith character exposition became almost entirely irrelevent when the idol came into play, seeing how it was handled oh so subtly. It ended up not mattering to me at all.

Saren on the otherhand, was quite different.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
It felt like it was Bioware stating that you were damned if you did, and damned if you didn't.  That's. . .grey, right?

Except Hawke didn't do much.

Having a completely tragic ending with it exploding in your face might be interesting. If it's written well and makes sense.

[TEWR]

Well, it's not like the idol sword wasn't present from the very beginning of Act 3. When Meredith steps forward you can clearly see she has a red glowing sword on her back.

It was still poorly handled though. It could've been handled a lot better, but we would've had to meet Meredith at least prior to the climax of Act 2.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 juin 2011 - 05:39 .

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
It felt like it was Bioware stating that you were damned if you did, and damned if you didn't.  That's. . .grey, right?

Except Hawke didn't do much.

Having a completely tragic ending with it exploding in your face might be interesting. If it's written well and makes sense.

You ever play Arc the Lad 2?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, it's not like the idol sword wasn't present from the very beginning of Act 3. When Meredith steps forward you can clearly see she has a red glowing sword on her back.

It was still poorly handled though. It could've been handled a lot better, but we would've had to meet Meredith at least prior to the climax of Act 2.

I think what he's saying is because the idol makes you crazy, it kind of invalidates your motivations, the sword made you do it.  But I am not going to speak for him.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juin 2011 - 05:42 .

[TEWR]

Oh I understand what KoP meant. I'm just pointing out that it's not like it makes a sudden appearance at the end of the game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, it's not like the idol sword wasn't present from the very beginning of Act 3. When Meredith steps forward you can clearly see she has a red glowing sword on her back.

I know, which made any character exposition of her entirely irrelevent to me, if I knew that the game was going to fall down to soul edge level of banality. When I didn't know of this, I was finding reasons to care. 

@ Harrid
No I haven't

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 05:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh I understand what KoP meant. I'm just pointing out that it's not like it makes a sudden appearance at the end of the game.

Yoiu're saying that you actually knew that her sword was the idol?

I didnt. I didn't think that Bioware was that bad at the moment that they woudl resort to such bs.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 05:44 .

[Foolsfolly]

Harid wrote...

Merill? The Blood Mage that listens to demons? A good spokesperson for mages? When people are afraid of mages because they may be listening to demons?

And the stupidity and naivete? A good leader? What?

She doesn't even learn anything after her clanleader takes the bullet for her, What the hell?

This is why you establish leadership prior to a revolution Bioware.

That wasn't the story BioWare wanted to tell. They wanted to tell a story that hinted at the story they wanted to tell while pricing 20 dollars worth of story content as 60+ dollars worth.

Seriously, there's one thing at the end with a certain companion who's actions is most assuredly a spoiler. Other than that one action everything about DA2 you'd need to know is in the trailers. Hell, the first 5 minutes with Varric and Cassandra tells you everything you need to know.

[Harid]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Harid wrote...

Merill? The Blood Mage that listens to demons? A good spokesperson for mages? When people are afraid of mages because they may be listening to demons?

And the stupidity and naivete? A good leader? What?

She doesn't even learn anything after her clanleader takes the bullet for her, What the hell?

This is why you establish leadership prior to a revolution Bioware.

That wasn't the story BioWare wanted to tell. They wanted to tell a story that hinted at the story they wanted to tell while pricing 20 dollars worth of story content as 60+ dollars worth.

Seriously, there's one thing at the end with a certain companion who's actions is most assuredly a spoiler. Other than that one action everything about DA2 you'd need to know is in the trailers. Hell, the first 5 minutes with Varric and Cassandra tells you everything you need to know.

Fair enough.

They are going to have trouble pushing dlc for this game, especially if they plan to amend the mistakes they made with this game through them.

At least, I'd like to think so.  People paid for Horse Armor.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh I understand what KoP meant. I'm just pointing out that it's not like it makes a sudden appearance at the end of the game.

Yoiu're saying that you actually knew that her sword was the idol?

I didnt. I didn't think that Bioware was that bad at the moment that they woudl resort to such bs.

I found it odd that Bartrand said he sold the lyrium idol to a woman and Meredith has a red glowing sword on her back, and Javaris Tintop said lyrium glows.


So, yes I did know. But at that point I was still trying to care. Plus all of her "arguments" against Orsino's points were pathetic.

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, it's not like the idol sword wasn't present from the very beginning of Act 3. When Meredith steps forward you can clearly see she has a red glowing sword on her back.

It was still poorly handled though. It could've been handled a lot better, but we would've had to meet Meredith at least prior to the climax of Act 2.

It shouldn't have been handled at all. Her paranoia of blood mages is founded in her past. It's a character trait that she's harsh on mages because she's personally seen and suffered at the hands of an out of control mage.

The Idol adds absolutely nothing to that. All it does is take away from her character. It feels like it was used entirely for the boss battle and the loose tie back to the first Act...so the first Act isn't completely unrelated to the story.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I found it odd that Bartrand said he sold the lyrium idol to a woman and Meredith has a red glowing sword on her back, and Javaris Tintop said lyrium glows.

I don't remember it glowing until the end. I just noticed it and said "what an ugly sword". 

[Foolsfolly]

People paid for Horse Armor.

People paid for ME2 companion skins, which was worse than horse armor. Horse armor at least looked nice and gave your horse an armor boost.

But I agree. And from what terribly small amount of information we have on Legacy (just a name and all the achievement names and descriptions) it sounds like it's not for me. I don't care about Malcolm Hawke and another small self-contained storyline during the game isn't going to fix the third act or give any depth to Orsino/Meredith or the conflict in which idiots are willing to fight mindlessly for.

...but who knows. Perhaps there's more to the DLC than this really small bits of information is telling me.

And it might be 5 dollars and really well received.

So, yes I did know. But at that point I was still trying to care. Plus all of her "arguments" against Orsino's points were pathetic.

I agree on the first play through. But on the second all I could see was a necromancer/blood mage complaining that Templars want to do their job and search the Circle because if they found him out he'd be killed.

Game really doesn't have anyone to root for. Even Hawke's stupid enough to inspire contempt instead of pride.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, it's not like the idol sword wasn't present from the very beginning of Act 3. When Meredith steps forward you can clearly see she has a red glowing sword on her back.

It was still poorly handled though. It could've been handled a lot better, but we would've had to meet Meredith at least prior to the climax of Act 2.

It shouldn't have been handled at all. Her paranoia of blood mages is founded in her past. It's a character trait that she's harsh on mages because she's personally seen and suffered at the hands of an out of control mage.

The Idol adds absolutely nothing to that. All it does is take away from her character. It feels like it was used entirely for the boss battle and the loose tie back to the first Act...so the first Act isn't completely unrelated to the story.

Hmmm.... well I think if we had met her around maybe Act 1 (maybe after the Tarohne quest) and gotten to converse with her somewhat in Act 1 and a lot in Act 2, we could've found out more about her past.

Then, around Act 3, she comes up to challenge Orsino's rousing of the nobility, but don't show the sword on her back.

Then around the climax of Act 3, she says that her sword was just recently completed, and you leave it unclear whether the Annulment was a result of the idol, or her past.


Better?

[Harid]

Foolsfolly wrote...

People paid for Horse Armor.

People paid for ME2 companion skins, which was worse than horse armor. Horse armor at least looked nice and gave your horse an armor boost.

But I agree. And from what terribly small amount of information we have on Legacy (just a name and all the achievement names and descriptions) it sounds like it's not for me. I don't care about Malcolm Hawke and another small self-contained storyline during the game isn't going to fix the third act or give any depth to Orsino/Meredith or the conflict in which idiots are willing to fight mindlessly for.

...but who knows. Perhaps there's more to the DLC than this really small bits of information is telling me.

And it might be 5 dollars and really well received.

But. . .there was an easily found invincible horse.

But eh. . .it's getting clear for crpgs. . .to wait for the GOTY edition.  I'm pretty sure dlc cannot fix the third act. . .they are going to have to retcon the hell out of it to get anything salvageable outta it.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juin 2011 - 06:03 .

[TEWR]

@Foolsfolly: I agree it's hard to side with Orsino again, but I can't not side with him and condemn all the other mages.


Bioware just needs to retcon Orsino's death for pro-mage players. No one is happy with how that turned out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If the idol had to be included, then it should have been done like Saren.

The first time we meet her, she talks in harsh, but pragmatic terms. Then as time goes by, she starts to use more and more religious arguments. Then she starts invoking the name of the Maker too often as if she's talking to him. And then she goes completely nuts.

That would have included the idol and Meredith evolving (or devolving) as a character.

But ideally, the idol should have been removed entirely. Human nature is interesting and complex enough as it is without needing bs like that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 06:03 .

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the idol had to be included, then it should have been done like Saren.

The first time we meet her, she talks in harsh, but pragmatic terms. Then as time goes by, she starts to use more and more religious arguments. Then she starts invoking the name of the Maker too often as if she's talking to him. And then she goes completely nuts.

That would have included the idol and Meredith evolving (or devolving) as a character.

But ideally, the idol should have been removed entirely. Human nature is interesting and complex enough as it is without needing bs like that.

I figure, partly that the idol was included to give a reason for a human last boss to actually. . .be a worthy last boss.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

There's nothing similar to Orsino. He's just a nercomancer, blood mage who supports serial killing mad men for reasons we can only guess at because he never explains why ever.

Left up to the imagination, I'd assume his curiosity about necromancy was....uh....academic? Maybe?

Yeah I know. Weak. Very weak.

I get that they wanted to show a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't kind of dilema, maybe similar to the choice we had to make in Orzimmar where you had to choose between two pretty unsavory characters and decide for ourselves which was better: to do bad things for a good end result, or do good things for a bad end result?

Problem is, they didn't give either Orsino OR Meredith the build-up they really need. Maybe less-so with Meredith, since you can, in fact, learn what drives her and you start hearing about her ruthlessness the very instant you step off the boat (literally), but Orsino isn't even mentioned until he turns up outta the blue during the Qunari attack. And then, he seems perfectly sane. Heck, when Meredith is all for kicking in the door, Orsino's the one who actually comes up with the sane plan that's less likely to get hostages massacred. And THEN attacks a whole squad of qunari by his lonesome to give you a chance of rescuing the innocent. 

Yes, we find a letter in Quintin's place signed "O" but who knows how old that is, or how much of Quintin's research he actually saw before he declared it "evil."

For him to decide, at the 11th Hour, that corpse-eating blood magic is not just a good thing, but the ONLY thing, makes no sense at all.

[DreamerM]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the idol had to be included, then it should have been done like Saren.

The first time we meet her, she talks in harsh, but pragmatic terms. Then as time goes by, she starts to use more and more religious arguments. Then she starts invoking the name of the Maker too often as if she's talking to him. And then she goes completely nuts.

That would have included the idol and Meredith evolving (or devolving) as a character.

But ideally, the idol should have been removed entirely. Human nature is interesting and complex enough as it is without needing bs like that.

Sometimes I wonder if "The Idol causes Crazy!" or "The Wonky Veil!" were put in the game as afterthoughts, to justify some plot twists that make no sense otherwise...

[TEWR]

We know that she acquired the idol sometime in Act 2, so that's where her de-evolution would occur.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DreamerM wrote...
Sometimes I wonder if "The Idol causes Crazy!" or "The Wonky Veil!" were put in the game as afterthoughts, to justify some plot twists that make no sense otherwise...

I personally am inclined to think so.

It ranks high up there alongside my "DA2 was meant to be a political social satire" theory.

[Foolsfolly]

But. . .there was an easily found invincible horse.

Available to Dark Brotherhood members. If you were roleplaying a goodie-two-shoes character than the horse was unavailable to you.

Ah, see.

...although, I can't remember the original price of Horse Armor. I remember it being horribly over priced. I want to say 7 dollars but it's been years. It was terrible and I never got it on principle. But I still see the ME2 companion costumes being worse, especially since most of them look terrible. The only one that looked nice was Miranda's because she was wearing armor.

But eh. . .it's getting clear for crpgs. . .to wait for the GOTY edition.

Fallout: New Vegas has had quality DLCs so far. Sure there's just two of them but Dead Money was fantastic and Honest Hearts had a cool character (The Burned Man) and an interesting map to explore.

I'm still waiting for the ME2 GotY edition since my sister broke my second disk to ME2. (If I must rebuy I want some DLC I don't have...like the armor packs.)

@ Ethereal Writer Redux.

Hmmm.... well I think if we had met her around maybe Act 1 (maybe after the Tarohne quest) and gotten to converse with her somewhat in Act 1 and a lot in Act 2, we could've found out more about her past.

Then, around Act 3, she comes up to challenge Orsino's rousing of the nobility, but don't show the sword on her back.

Then around the climax of Act 3, she says that her sword was just recently completed, and you leave it unclear whether the Annulment was a result of the idol, or her past.


Better?

I don't think so. Then it's always there to be a nice scapegoat for her character going nutso. Also it's completely sudden appearance would smack of stupid even more. And perhaps even just have fans say it was Varric lying to protect Hawke.

And people who think that about this game are desperate to overlook any and everything they dislike about the game.

Of course, any Varric lies will be found out by the time DA3 comes out. And if the ending was a big huge lie then the entire point of DA2 is....nothing. Just play Origins and skip to DA3.

@Foolsfolly: I agree it's hard to side with Orsino again, but I can't not side with him and condemn all the other mages.


Bioware just needs to retcon Orsino's death for pro-mage players. No one is happy with how that turned out.

The whole Pro-Mage Act 3 makes little sense. You have a mission where you're forced to hunt down mages, then you meet a group that always call you for working with the Templars and then you're always forced to slay them, and then while fending off waves successfully Orsino attacks you and reveals that he supported the guy that killed your mom.

I mean that's one big facepalm of an act for Mage supporters.

[TEWR]

Hmmm.... well I think if we had met her around maybe Act 1 (maybe after the Tarohne quest) and gotten to converse with her somewhat in Act 1 and a lot in Act 2, we could've found out more about her past.

Then, around Act 3, she comes up to challenge Orsino's rousing of the nobility, but don't show the sword on her back.

Then around the climax of Act 3, she says that her sword was just recently completed, and you leave it unclear whether the Annulment was a result of the idol, or her past.


Better?

I don't think so. Then it's always there to be a nice scapegoat for her character going nutso. Also it's completely sudden appearance would smack of stupid even more. And perhaps even just have fans say it was Varric lying to protect Hawke.

And people who think that about this game are desperate to overlook any and everything they dislike about the game.

Of course, any Varric lies will be found out by the time DA3 comes out. And if the ending was a big huge lie then the entire point of DA2 is....nothing. Just play Origins and skip to DA3.

Well, to add a little bit to my post: First, add maybe 3 or 4 more quests for Act 3. Then, establish that these quests (and any side quests you do in between them) all take place over a certain amount of time. Say 3 months at most.

Then, you can talk to Meredith even as a pro-mage Hawke to find out more about her, and around Quest 4 (the first additional main quest), you see the sword on her back.

Better?

@Foolsfolly: I agree it's hard to side with Orsino again, but I can't not side with him and condemn all the other mages.


Bioware just needs to retcon Orsino's death for pro-mage players. No one is happy with how that turned out.

The whole Pro-Mage Act 3 makes little sense. You have a mission where you're forced to hunt down mages, then you meet a group that always call you for working with the Templars and then you're always forced to slay them, and then while fending off waves successfully Orsino attacks you and reveals that he supported the guy that killed your mom.

I mean that's one big facepalm of an act for Mage supporters.

That was changed I believe to "We know you're spying for Orsino!" which still makes me go  and facepalm. Orsino's the one trying to get Meredith ousted and they act like idiots.


And then you have to deal with Grace, who's upset that Hawke defended himself from Decimus. Decimus attacks you for no reason when you might have mages in your party (yourself even), and you haven't even yet said you're turning them in.

I could understand Decimus' actions and Grace's were we to say "I'm turning you in" before Decimus attacked.


We should've been able to walk into the caves and say to Decimus and company:

A) I'm turning you in.

*Decimus says you won't, fights you, you kill him. Grace eventually goes insane.


I'm helping you escape.

*Decimus and company escape, Decimus stays, or returns to being, sane, join Thrask's rebellion later on, Thrask's rebellion doesn't get sabotaged at all by Grace or Samson. They help to fight off the Templars for pro-mage players once the climax of Act 3 happens.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 juin 2011 - 06:25 .