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[TEWR]

we would also need to explore more of the Gallows during the Annulment. And if you go pro-Templar, you fight Thrask and company.


Alternatively, what I posted in my thread "Friendship and Rivalry -- you should play a part in the story itself" thread could also happen.

[DreamerM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The whole Pro-Mage Act 3 makes little sense. You have a mission where you're forced to hunt down mages, then you meet a group that always call you for working with the Templars and then you're always forced to slay them, and then while fending off waves successfully Orsino attacks you and reveals that he supported the guy that killed your mom.

I mean that's one big facepalm of an act for Mage supporters.

And not in the good "oh I am so conflicted, this is such a complicated and morally ambiguous situation that makes me reconsider my values as a person!" kind of way. In a "oh you are kidding me, where did THAT come from" kind of way.

It's one thing if you come to a nieve misunderstanding of a situation. It's another if the only way you could have avoided that "misunderstanding" was by being either pathologically paranoid or PSYCHIC.

[Foolsfolly]

Harid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the idol had to be included, then it should have been done like Saren.

The first time we meet her, she talks in harsh, but pragmatic terms. Then as time goes by, she starts to use more and more religious arguments. Then she starts invoking the name of the Maker too often as if she's talking to him. And then she goes completely nuts.

That would have included the idol and Meredith evolving (or devolving) as a character.

But ideally, the idol should have been removed entirely. Human nature is interesting and complex enough as it is without needing bs like that.

I figure, partly that the idol was included to give a reason for a human last boss to actually. . .be a worthy last boss.

That is actually a really good argument. That's a problem with not having an ancient evil (although the Idol probably counts as one) or some big powerful bad guy to fight.

But I don't think having the Idol be that reason was the best answer to that difficult question. Were I in the room and throwing around ideas I'd just suggest that the battle itself was the boss fight.

Since it's the first battle of a large war treat it like a battle. Fighting through rank and file soldiers, ordering troop movements, and taking strategetic locations itself would be the boss fight. The actual combat with Meredith just being a tough Elite Boss surrounded by troopers.

Clearly not the bombastic ending that DA2 has but I think it would be an interesting fight. Especially if the enemy could use multiple (two-three) strategies against the player so it's not the exact same commands/orders of troops that wins the day.

Well, to add a little bit to my post: First, add maybe 3 or 4 more
quests for Act 3. Then, establish that these quests (and any side quests
you do in between them) all take place over a certain amount of time.
Say 3 months at most.

Then, you can talk to Meredith even as a
pro-mage Hawke to find out more about her, and around Quest 4 (the first
additional main quest), you see the sword on her back.

Better?

Certainly better. But I'm never going to say the Idol was better than Meredith being sane, albeit biased, human character.

We should've been able to walk into the caves and say to Decimus and company:

A) I'm turning you in.

*Decimus says you won't, fights you, you kill him. Grace eventually goes insane.


I'm helping you escape.

*Decimus
and company escape, Decimus stays, or returns to being, sane, join
Thrask's rebellion later on, Thrask's rebellion doesn't get sabotaged at
all by Grace or Samson. They help to fight off the Templars for
pro-mage players once the climax of Act 3 happens.

I couldn't agree more. The only thing I'd add is another mission or conversation where Grace is going insane. So the betrayal/insanity thing doesn't come across as completely nonsensical. Which it kinda does in the current game.

...lot of insane mages in this game.

[Harid]

To be fair, if you speak to Grace after you catch her, throughout the Acts, she kinda shows you she's a bit unhinged, IIRC.

Unfortunately I can't find quotes as the game is not in front of me, but I do recall her saying she wish she died with Decimus and the like.

[TEWR]

@Harid: I know of what you speak (as I typed that it sounded familiar), but it doesn't help her case at all. She goes insane for stupid reasons.


"You helped me escape, but they caught us! You must've told them about us!"


Yes, because I knew exactly where the hell you were and I confessed to the Templars that I helped apostates escape. Great logic Grace.

[Foolsfolly]

Harid wrote...

To be fair, if you speak to Grace after you catch her, throughout the Acts, she kinda shows you she's a bit unhinged, IIRC.

Unfortunately I can't find quotes as the game is not in front of me, but I do recall her saying she wish she died with Decimus and the like.

Cool. Because I wanted to kill her along with Decimus and the rest of the Starkhaven mages when I did my 'Pro-Templar Absolutely no Mercy for Blood Magic' Hawke.

Instead I had to turn them over to the Big Scary Bad Templars who figured having known escapee, arsonist, murdering Blood Mages not put down or tranquiled was a good judgement call.

[TEWR]

Merrill, Anders, Orsino (pre-Harvestino Orsino), and Bethany are the only mages I like in the game.



Just to be clear, I like Anders because I agree with him and justify his actions. Doesn't mean anything else beyond that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...

To be fair, if you speak to Grace after you catch her, throughout the Acts, she kinda shows you she's a bit unhinged, IIRC.

Unfortunately I can't find quotes as the game is not in front of me, but I do recall her saying she wish she died with Decimus and the like.

Which makes the mages who follow her, and Thrashk who trust her, stupid. Her history of being the lover of a weird cult leader aside, her obsession and denial when it comes to Hawke should have made everyone raise an eyebrow, when they wanted to kidnap Hawke's sibling and lure him in the middle of nowhere.

....even if Hawke demonstrated time and time again that he is pro-mage....

**** this game.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 06:43 .

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Harid: I know of what you speak (as I typed that it sounded familiar), but it doesn't help her case at all. She goes insane for stupid reasons.


"You helped me escape, but they caught us! You must've told them about us!"


Yes, because I knew exactly where the hell you were and I confessed to the Templars that I helped apostates escape. Great logic Grace.

OH. I remember dialogue like that. I also remember one where she said something like "Oh, you let us free but where were we supposed to go with no food or blah blah" and all I could think was....

Where the hell were you going when Decimus was leading you? Did you honestly burn down a Circle and run into the wilds without a single idea of where you were going or how you were going to survive? Let alone escape the Templars?

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Harid: I know of what you speak (as I typed that it sounded familiar), but it doesn't help her case at all. She goes insane for stupid reasons.


"You helped me escape, but they caught us! You must've told them about us!"


Yes, because I knew exactly where the hell you were and I confessed to the Templars that I helped apostates escape. Great logic Grace.

Never said it wasn't stupid, I just said that it didn't entirely come out of nowhere.

I haven't even bothered to try to play a pro mage playthrough though.

Mage rebellion is contrived and stupid and realistcally wouldn't work.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juin 2011 - 06:45 .

[DreamerM]

Harid wrote...

To be fair, if you speak to Grace after you catch her, throughout the Acts, she kinda shows you she's a bit unhinged, IIRC.

Oh I knew there was going to be trouble instant she turned up in the Mage Circle, seething; "well of course we all got caught, we had only a few moments head start!" 

For some reason there's no option to say "well then you should have run FASTER Lady!"

Why was that not an option? Why?

[Sidney]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't remember it glowing until the end. I just noticed it and said "what an ugly sword". 

It was one of, how many swords are in the game, oh well all of them but the Templar Swords ugly swords. I suspect that is why no one noticed it looked ridiculous. Weapon design across the board in DA2 was much worse than in DAO and since there the design was lousy you can imagine how bad DA2 is.

[TEWR]

If King Alistair aided the apostates around Act 2's beginning or a year prior, then they should've fled to Ferelden.


Or we should've busted them out using Anders' Mage Resistance connections. Though I would want the option of calling her an idiot for getting caught.


"If you get caught this time, I'm not helping you again. I've been an apostate my whole life and you couldn't even be one for more than 2 years. You're pathetic."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't remember it glowing until the end. I just noticed it and said "what an ugly sword". 

It was one of, how many swords are in the game, oh well all of them but the Templar Swords ugly swords. I suspect that is why no one noticed it looked ridiculous. Weapon design across the board in DA2 was much worse than in DAO and since there the design was lousy you can imagine how bad DA2 is.

Indeed. I mean



wtf is that?

[Sidney]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Where the hell were you going when Decimus was leading you? Did you honestly burn down a Circle and run into the wilds without a single idea of where you were going or how you were going to survive? Let alone escape the Templars?

You overestimate most people's planning skills to be honest - let alone assuming there was planning and it wasn't just a spontaneous uprising to a specific cause.

Grace clearly didn't reveal the whole "crazy" side since Thrask seems taken aback by her "transformation". She was clearly using/trying to manipulate the situation to her advantage.

[TEWR]

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't remember it glowing until the end. I just noticed it and said "what an ugly sword". 

It was one of, how many swords are in the game, oh well all of them but the Templar Swords ugly swords. I suspect that is why no one noticed it looked ridiculous. Weapon design across the board in DA2 was much worse than in DAO and since there the design was lousy you can imagine how bad DA2 is.

I thought the weapons were amazing in DA2. Hayder's Razor is the only problematic one I saw. But the greatswords in DA2 use the same models as DAO did.

[DreamerM]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes, because I knew exactly where the hell you were and I confessed to the Templars that I helped apostates escape.

Brilliant plan, considering we have already been told that Meredith's declared "aiding apostates" a capital offense and those helpful Templars would have been obligated to hang me. Yeah. Just brilliant.

[TEWR]

@KoP: Isn't that from the item pack?


*shudders*

[Sidney]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sidney wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't remember it glowing until the end. I just noticed it and said "what an ugly sword". 

It was one of, how many swords are in the game, oh well all of them but the Templar Swords ugly swords. I suspect that is why no one noticed it looked ridiculous. Weapon design across the board in DA2 was much worse than in DAO and since there the design was lousy you can imagine how bad DA2 is.

Indeed. I mean



wtf is that?

Offhand my first guess were flippers. It does sort of approximate the structure of a whale fin with the vestigal hands inside the flipper. Not sure why I'd want that as a weapon.

[Harid]

There are pretty much stylized hatchets.

I don't really see the big deal. . .

[DreamerM]

Sidney wrote...
 Weapon design across the board in DA2 was much worse than in DAO and since there the design was lousy you can imagine how bad DA2 is.

At least DA2 did away with the World's Ugliest Underwear.

Really, underpants cut that high don't flatter ANYBODY.

Really really, that banana hammock was the scariest thing in the game. Much more terrifying then the archdemon. Much.

Modifié par DreamerM, 26 juin 2011 - 07:00 .

[Foolsfolly]

Oh god those are the ugliest damn daggers I've ever seen in a game. What the hell is up with that? That from the Item Pack? Gah.

Gah. Just ridiculous.

I want to slap the person who designed them. "These are weapons not hand fans for elderly southern women during Prohibition!"

Or we should've busted them out using Anders' Mage Resistance connections. Though I would want the option of calling her an idiot for getting caught.

By Anders' Mage Resistance you mean a few token lines about a Resistance we never meet, even when playing Pro-Mage and a few off hand references to a manifesto which must read something like "Blow up things to take away any chance compromise, die a martyr, and assume the mages win."

Pithy net comment aside the Resistance should have played at least a part of the story line. Likewise the fraternities should have had a part to play.

And the Gallows should have opened up at some point, especially in Act 2 since it's very likely your sibling is there.

[Sidney]

Harid wrote...

There are pretty much stylized hatchets.

I don't really see the big deal. . .

Hatchets are a kind of axe. Those sure aren't axes.

They might look like cleavers more than anything else...like Hawke is going to start a Benihana routine any moment.

[Harid]

I meant cleaver, sorry.

It's not like they are ineffective at killing is my main point, which is why I wasn't bothered by them.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juin 2011 - 06:57 .

[Foolsfolly]

Sidney wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Where the hell were you going when Decimus was leading you? Did you honestly burn down a Circle and run into the wilds without a single idea of where you were going or how you were going to survive? Let alone escape the Templars?

You overestimate most people's planning skills to be honest - let alone assuming there was planning and it wasn't just a spontaneous uprising to a specific cause.

Grace clearly didn't reveal the whole "crazy" side since Thrask seems taken aback by her "transformation". She was clearly using/trying to manipulate the situation to her advantage.

They must have planned something to start the fire and destroy their phylacteries (I am not going to wiki for the correct spelling). If that was the end of their plan then they deserve to die out in the wilderness with no supplies, allies, or destination.

I mean they walked from Starkhaven to Kirkwall the ****ing Templar center of the universe.