211 réponses à ce sujet

[TexasNationalist]

I was under the impression that the Protheans and the Reapers were the only spacefaring species 50,000 years ago.

Which means it was the Reapers, or the Protheans harvesting resources to escape the Reapers, or the Protheans having fun with genocide before the Reaper invasion. There is insufficient knowledge on Prothean warfare and the nature of their species, so all are plausible.

Also, I have no idea why people are arguing with me while agreeing with me.

[TexasNationalist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Many of these extinctions are far older than 50,000 years.

Indeed, but I'm just citing one planet.  I've only barely started reading the planetary entries when I go on missions, and never realized what I was missing.  They have entries on wars between species, colonization, and political intrigue.  It fills in some missing information.

[Saaziel]

Edit , never mind , i got confused over the topic.

My bad.

Modifié par Saaziel, 23 juin 2011 - 01:54 .

[RAF1940]

George-Kinsill wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mass extinctions are nothing special. We've had several of them on Earth alone.

Mass Extictions such as super volcanoes, asteroids, global climate change, eve a gamma ray burst, sure. But calculated orbital bombardment genocide destroying all traces of existance, even mining infrastructure that could easily be taken and exploited for resources? That is unique, and hasn't been seen by any modern citadel species. Even the batarians only resort to these tactics when it is impossible to do otherwise.

I'm wondering this too. And if he did, he could persuade the rest of the Council (if still alive).

[George-Kinsill]

[/quote]

"Not necessarily the Reapers"

You said it yourself.

Anyone could have wiped them out. In the Mass Effect universe a bronze age species is only a few thousand years away from competing in with you in the galaxy at large. So why not kill 'em off now while you can do it cheaply and expediently?

[/quote]

I agree wit you wholeheartedly that sure, killing a home planet i orbital bombardment is efficient in a secies on species war, but when easily conquerable mines are vaporized of all their resources, and this happens for every extinction, someone would ave to raise an eye brow or two. The fact remains, often with these sudden extinctions, there is no evidence of another species competing for resources, or of civil war. At a certain point, the council and everyone else must admit there is something REALLY weird about these past extinctions (which has been going on for billions of years at 50,000 year intervals) and the Reaper thery should be gven the credibility its due as a plausible explanation.

[Saaziel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saaziel wrote...


Resistance is possible , though disorganized.

Edit: hold on i think i miss understood you.

The Reapers can easily be aware of a bronze age civilization, or even a more primitive one.

Wait so, were you saying that "Reapers are or should actively attack primitive civilizations"?

If so then i suppose my previous , now deleted , post still bears merit.

The vastness of space is too great and the necessary component for sentient life , seemingly , too hard to predict in order to justify a "hunt' of this kind.  Moreover , if we're to take the "Reaper's" word , they have a completely different understanding of time it self. Being without beginning or end they couldn't differentiate between 100 and 50 000 years.

Having baited advanced civilization to establish governments on the citadel , then destroying it to leave its citizens in disarray seems like a more efficient , predatory way to reproduce.

Again , i was following two different thread , and i think i got the topic confused however.

Modifié par Saaziel, 23 juin 2011 - 02:14 .

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'm saying that they have incentive to do so. Though the point of my original post was that even non-Reapers have plenty of reasons to destroy a primitive civilization before it becomes a "not-primitive" one.

I just thought of the Yahg.

[Saaziel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saaziel wrote...

Wait so, were you saying that "Reapers are or should actively attack primitive civilizations"?

I'm saying that they have incentive to do so. Though the point of my original post was that even non-Reapers have plenty of reasons to destroy a primitive civilization before it becomes a "not-primitive" one.

I'd probably put my money on Non-Reapers eliminating civilization that way. Though of course its not out of the question that the Reapers and their allies (Like the collectors or Geths) might act like "gardeners" to their Gods. So by proxy the Reapers would most certainly be involved.

And thanks for clearing it out, makes more sense to me now.

Modifié par Saaziel, 23 juin 2011 - 02:24 .

[George-Kinsill]

Saphra Deden wrote...

George-Kinsill wrote...

 but when easily conquerable mines are vaporized of all their resources, and this happens for every extinction, someone would ave to raise an eye brow or two.

The galaxy is brimming with resources. Not strange at all.

It wouldn't be weird for peaceful times, but in war, ations don't have the time to start major infrastructure projects, so if there was an easily acesible mining moon/planet that could be taken over as easily as the asteroid in BDTS in MW1 by Balak, and quickly use its resources against the enemy, the ony logical thing to do is to take it over. To destroy a erfectly good mining moon and aporize it into a satur like ring would take a lot of resources and conquering would result in a net gain of resources. ny a race bet on illogical genocide would do something like this.

[TexasToast712]

That or the Protheans didnt like competition.

[KnobConan]

Regarding the bronze age civilization that was wiped out. Has anyone considered that maybe some protheans took refuge on the planet and were tracked there by the Reapers. It would not be easy to wipe out the protheans without contaminating the culture of the indigenous population so they decided to bomb the whole planet from orbit.

[George-Kinsill]

As for the bronze age extinction (to which not date is given) I would have considered it out of place for the Reapers before coverage of ME3, but now that it turns out the Reapers are indoctrinating ad huskifying non-space species like the Shadow Broker's, I could easily believe that the Reapers destroyed this Bronze age civ.

[George-Kinsill]

KnobConan wrote...

Regarding the bronze age civilization that was wiped out. Has anyone considered that maybe some protheans took refuge on the planet and were tracked there by the Reapers. It would not be easy to wipe out the protheans without contaminating the culture of the indigenous population so they decided to bomb the whole planet from orbit.

That is actually a really good idea, but remember, it could have been another species as it's not specified tat this extinction happened 50,000 years ago; it could be much older.

[Heimdall]

I actually feel like I'm the only one who thinks the Council's conclusion is a reasonable one.

A: What evidence do they have of the Reapers, truly? Nobody else saw Vigil or the beacons. They only have pieces of Sovereign, good chunks of which were taken by scavengers. And what does that tell them? That Sovereign was a very advannced ship... That's it. Though, given it's company, it would be reasonable to assume it was crewed by AI, probably Geth. There is absolutely no evidence of a machine race waiting to come kill us all, that just sounds like a conspiracy theory. A far more reasonable theory would be that it was or was derived from a piece of Prothean technology that Saren used to solidify his alliance with the Geth.

B: In a lot of threads, I've seen people complain about the Council not trusting Shepard enough. The Council does trust Shepard. They believe he is telling what he believes is the truth. It would be incredibly irresponsible for a group of beings responsible for trillions of lives to take drastic actions based on the unverifiable testimony of one man when the theory that he was manipulated by a charismatic and clever former operative seems far more plausible.

[Homebound]

politicians bein politicians the way i see it. its more convenient to dissmiss a problem, leave it for a next generation to fix, than to actually do something about it.

the question of the reapers existing isnt the problem, the problem is the council doesnt want to admit they exist out of convenience.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 23 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[Homebound]

deleted

Modifié par Hellbound555, 23 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[InHarmsWay]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I actually feel like I'm the only one who thinks the Council's conclusion is a reasonable one.

A: What evidence do they have of the Reapers, truly? Nobody else saw Vigil or the beacons. They only have pieces of Sovereign, good chunks of which were taken by scavengers. And what does that tell them? That Sovereign was a very advannced ship... That's it. Though, given it's company, it would be reasonable to assume it was crewed by AI, probably Geth. There is absolutely no evidence of a machine race waiting to come kill us all, that just sounds like a conspiracy theory. A far more reasonable theory would be that it was or was derived from a piece of Prothean technology that Saren used to solidify his alliance with the Geth.

B: In a lot of threads, I've seen people complain about the Council not trusting Shepard enough. The Council does trust Shepard. They believe he is telling what he believes is the truth. It would be incredibly irresponsible for a group of beings responsible for trillions of lives to take drastic actions based on the unverifiable testimony of one man when the theory that he was manipulated by a charismatic and clever former operative seems far more plausible.

The idea that Sovereign is a Geth is just as ridiculous as the Reapers.

Reaper material would be completely different from Geth machines, since Reapers are made from people. There would be a consistency of elements between all ships and platforms of the Geth. Not to mention that today's dating techniques would be able to tell that the Reaper materials would be much old than 300 years.

Also the idea that the Geth would only build one super destroyer ship. And don't give me the, "Well they might not have the resources to make that many ships." The Geth has all the Quarian terroritories under their command. They don't sleep or need rest so they can creates ships night and day.

And then you have Saren. By the Council's OWN CONCLUSIONS, Saren convinced the Geth that the Reapers are real and that Sovereign (which in another breath they claim is a Reaper) is also a Reaper and that he is a prophet of their kind. So Saren convinced the Geth that something they built was their god?

[George-Kinsill]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I actually feel like I'm the only one who thinks the Council's conclusion is a reasonable one.

A: What evidence do they have of the Reapers, truly? Nobody else saw Vigil or the beacons. They only have pieces of Sovereign, good chunks of which were taken by scavengers. And what does that tell them? That Sovereign was a very advannced ship... That's it. Though, given it's company, it would be reasonable to assume it was crewed by AI, probably Geth. There is absolutely no evidence of a machine race waiting to come kill us all, that just sounds like a conspiracy theory. A far more reasonable theory would be that it was or was derived from a piece of Prothean technology that Saren used to solidify his alliance with the Geth.

.

My problem with the cuncil is that they don't seem to do any investigating on this matter whatsoever. Sure, like you said there is not enough evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but there is eough in regards to Shepard's testimony and the fate of ever previous galactic civilization to make it a reasonable belief. Instead, the council act like Shepard is delusional and call him a crazy traitor. They could at the very least not caracter assasinate Sheard, which they do between ME1 & ME2.

Also, there is the footage of billion year old leviathan, a reaper, and there was evidence of Soveriegn being an ancient AI back whe Anderson was working with Saren. Like I said, not eough to prve it, but enough to deserve a long term extensive investigation, not air quotes.    

[RAIDENKUN]

I don't think the matter has anything to do with logic.

There's clearly enough evidence of the Reapers for the Council to take an interest in them (or at least in these incredible dreadnoughts that the Geth allegedly control). At a minimum you would expect the Council to immediately bulk up their respective militaries in order to combat the threat of further "Geth" attacks on the Citadel.

What it comes down to is that "You'll have to save the galaxy on your own Shepard, with all odds against you" lends to a more compelling story than "You're completely right Shepard, sit back and relax while we assemble a fighting force many times more capable than you individually."

[George-Kinsill]

RAIDENKUN wrote...

I don't think the matter has anything to do with logic.

There's clearly enough evidence of the Reapers for the Council to take an interest in them (or at least in these incredible dreadnoughts that the Geth allegedly control). At a minimum you would expect the Council to immediately bulk up their respective militaries in order to combat the threat of further "Geth" attacks on the Citadel.

What it comes down to is that "You'll have to save the galaxy on your own Shepard, with all odds against you" lends to a more compelling story than "You're completely right Shepard, sit back and relax while we assemble a fighting force many times more capable than you individually."

I agree with you, but I guess my problem is that there seem to be 3 options that are argued when it comes to the council not believing Shepard:
1) Not enough evidence
2) Plot hole
3) Volutary igorance

As you ad I have both stated, there is enough evidence to at least be receptive and investigate the Reaper theory, especially considering its imlications, so 1 is out.

If its a plot hole just left there to make Shepard more awesome, I would be mad at BW, ad all their plaetary extinction descriptions will have been wasted time.

If its 3, which seems the best stro wise, then the ethics of knowledge is brought up, and if the old saying is true, that "voluntary ignorance is criminal" then th ecouncil is essentially guilty fr allowing galactic genocide and failig their respective species, and even a paragon would have to punish them for their crimes, and I would be really mad if there is another scneario in the game where the paragon option is to allow thousands or millions to die to preserve te council, as frankly if 3 is the case, they have no right to be saved.