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Council is blatantly ignorant for not connecting dots of mass extinctions


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#151
General User

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Lord Aesir wrote...
Please present this evidence that Sovereign is anything other than an advanced ship.

   
Sovereign is an advanced ship. All Reapers are. 
-By the Council’s own admission, Sovereign is markedly different from every other geth ship. 
-Shepard and company’s testimony and the SR-1’s mission logs.
-Any testimony or physical evidence the Council cares to collect form Feros, Noveria, Virmire, or Illos will support Shepard's story. It has to because Shepard’s story is true.

Lord Aesir wrote...
There is no evidence supportingthe idea that there are other ships like it out there, let alone ancient AIs waiting to destroy them.  All they have is Shepard's word. 

Shepard is their personal agent sent to investigate the matter, not some chap off the street. And every bit of evidence that is available to the Council corroborates Shepard’s “word.”

Lord Aesir wrote...
So they go with the least preposterous explaination hat doesn't sound like a wacked conspiracy theory, that Sovereign was a Geth.

No. They went with a theory that fit their own preferences despite evidence to the contrary. 

Lord Aesir wrote...
Does it fit perfectly?  No, but there is certainly nothing pointing the Reaper theory as any better. 

You know what does 'fit perfectly'?  Shepard's version of events.

Do you know why it 'fits perfectly'?  Because it's true.

Lord Aesir wrote...
Especially when they believe Shpard has fallen for a ruse by Saren.

Are you trying to say that the Council is capable of Olympic-level mental gymnastics in order to justify their own prejudiced theories?  If so, I agree entirely.

#152
littlezack

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If I told you vampires existed, even if I had some evidence that supported my claim, would you automatically take it at face value? 

#153
Il Divo

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General User wrote...

1.Sovereign is an advanced ship. All Reapers are. 
2.-By the Council’s own admission, Sovereign is markedly different from every other geth ship. 
3.-Shepard and company’s testimony and the SR-1’s mission logs.
4.-Any testimony or physical evidence the Council cares to collect form Feros, Noveria, Virmire, or Illos will support Shepard's story. It has to because Shepard’s story is true.



1. That's great, except it doesn't follow a logical progression: 'Sovereign is a Reaper'. 'Reapers are advanced ships'. 'All advanced ships are Reapers'. The third statement does not follow from the first two.

2. Different design does not equal Reaper. An advanced ship is, by definition, different.

3. Except they don't believe Shepard, nor his squad mate's testimony. Truth is denoted by the ability to corroborate evidence.

4.  The burden of proof is on you to list this 'evidence', not to say that the Council can obviously find it. Virmire suffered a nuclear explosion, Vigil shut down on Ilos, there's nothing on Feros, and the Rachni Queen is either dead/escaped.
 
Liara is the closest thing to an expert there is, yet she's not taken seriously by other Prothean scholars.

No. They went with a theory that fit their own preferences despite evidence to the contrary. 


There is no 'hard evidence', contrary to what you claim.

You know what does 'fit perfectly'?  Shepard's version of events.

Do you know why it 'fits perfectly'?  Because it's true.


The truth is irrelevant. Individuals do not change their beliefs because something is true. If I am trapped in the Matrix, someone will not convince me of this merely because it's 'true'. I need some form of evidence.

In this case, belief in Reapers alters my system of truth much more than believing that Sovereign was merely a Geth construct. From this, it follows that belief in Reapers will require much more evidence/proof.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 juin 2011 - 01:24 .


#154
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littlezack wrote...

If I told you vampires existed, even if I had some evidence that supported my claim, would you automatically take it at face value? 

If you told me?  An anonymous bloke on the internet?  No, of course not.

If you should happen to be a person of substance however, a senior military officer, or a political official, or a well-regarded scientist, then I would most certainly be willing to look at your evidence.  And if it all turned out to be kosher... well, you could probably find me at the store stocking up on wooden stakes.

And if I were a senior government official and several of my military, political, and intelligence colleagues have been warning me about vampires.  And I dispatched a spy to look into the matter, and the chap comes back and says "Yep, vampires."  And, one day a bunch of blokes with pasty skin and fangs attacked a major city...  I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Modifié par General User, 26 juin 2011 - 12:41 .


#155
littlezack

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And, one day a bunch of blokes with pasty skin and fangs attacked a major city... I think you can see where I'm going with this.


Except it wasn't a bunch of pasty guys. It was one guy. And he died, and there was never any proof that he was what you said he was. And no other pasty guys showed up for three years after that, despite claims of an 'impending vampire invasion'.

#156
sartt

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George-Kinsill wrote...

After finally getting an HDTV, I was finally able to read all the descriptions of all the worlds, and to my surprise, there were many with desciptios of advanced space faring species pre-dating the protheans. These species all were powerful, spanning the galaxy, AND WERE DESTROYED IN A GENOCIDAL FASHION WITH ALL HABITATION CENTERS DECIMATED BY DREADNOUGHT class+ WEAPONS! These panets include Joab, Bothros, Tosal Nym, Aphras, Gaelon, etc. Even mining outposts, which were out of the way and could have easily been captured and exploited by an organic race bent on conquest, were vaorized, with only te smallest traces left, meaning that all these super advanced species did not dissappear via civil war (wich is only logical cause of death whe there is only 1 space faring species) BUT BY PURPOSEFUL AND CALCULATED GENOCIDE BY AN OUTSIDE FORCE BET ON ERASING ALL TRACES OF EXISTANCE!

All of this out of the way, the questio must be brought up, "WHY THE HELL DOES IT TAKE A OOB ARCHAEOLOGIST LIARA AND SHEPERD TO POINT OUT THAT THERE MAY BE SOME CONNECTION BETWEEN AL OF THESE EXTINCTIONS!? I mean, if a few extinctions were caused by purposeful geocide and war, the Reaper theory would have no weight. But when every sinle extinction is caused in the same fashion, tou'd think when a hyper-advanced dreadnought class ship comes along, destroys the entire citadel fleet, ad maipuates the citadel in a way that ot even the council knew was possible, all accodring in the way the Reaper theory was presented by Shepard ad Liara, that every thing might click with the council and everything else that these extinctions are related. Instead, the Council in ME2 says there is o evidence supporting the Reaper theory, despite the fact that it was confirmed by their best operative, Shepard, and millions of years of historica evidence. I mean, statistically there would have to be a few planets hastily evacuated if there was a supervolcano extinction, wich would result in Pompeii like perfect preservation, or a few asteroid related extinctions, or something. But no, everyone of these civilizations is destroyed by orital bombardment genocide, almost a traces erased, and the targeted fashion of the bombardment confirmation that it wasn't a natural collision extinction event. So is it just me, or in light of all of this does it seem like the counil has their heads even further up their @sses then previously thought?    

ITS A GAME..:mellow:

#157
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littlezack wrote...


And, one day a bunch of blokes with pasty skin and fangs attacked a major city... I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Except it wasn't a bunch of pasty guys. It was one guy. And he died, and there was never any proof that he was what you said he was. And no other pasty guys showed up for three years after that, despite claims of an 'impending vampire invasion'.

All right then, one guy, whose autopsy revealed he clearly wasn’t human even if it couldn’t be determined exactly what he was (reputable medical literature on vampires is rather hard to come by after all).


Il Divo
The truth is irrelevant.

Sounds like you're going for a Council seat yourself.

Modifié par General User, 26 juin 2011 - 12:58 .


#158
Il Divo

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General User wrote...

Sounds like you're going for a Council seat yourself.


I was hoping to see something of actual value, but I guess this is the best you can do. A pity.

#159
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Il Divo wrote...
I was hoping to see something of actual value, but I guess this is the best you can do. A pity.

Fine, fine, fine! I’ll take time out of my day to explain why your specific opinions are wrong. The worst part is I probably won’t even get a thank you!


Il Divo wrote...
1. That's great, except it doesn't follow a logical progression: 'Sovereign is a Reaper'. 'Reapers are advanced ships'. 'All advanced ships are Reapers'. The third statement does not follow from the first two.

It’s a good thing I didn’t make that third statement then.


Il Divo wrote...
2. Different design does not equal Reaper. An advanced ship is, by definition, different.

An advanced ship is by definition advanced, but I think I see what you’re getting at, and you’re missing the point. The idea is not to show that Sovereign was a Reaper, but to show that Sovereign was different from geth vessels. When two vessels differ in virtually every aspect of their composition, components, and construction, the logical conclusion is that they have separate origins.

Il Divo wrote...
3. Except they don't believe Shepard, nor his squad mate's testimony. Truth is denoted by the ability to corroborate evidence.

Which Shepard has. You seem to be confusing the concepts of ‘evidence’ and ‘proof.’ NONE of the evidence before the Council proves Shepard’s story, ALL of the evidence supports it. 



Il Divo wrote...
4.  The burden of proof is on you to list this 'evidence', not to say that the Council can obviously find it. Virmire suffered a nuclear explosion, Vigil shut down on Ilos, there's nothing on Feros, and the Rachni Queen is either dead/escaped.
 
Liara is the closest thing to an expert there is, yet she's not taken seriously by other Prothean scholars.

The concept of ‘burden of proof’ does not necessarily come into play in an inquisitorial proceeding. The onus is on the Council to accurately determine the events leading up to and circumstances surrounding the Battle of the Citadel, a task they failed at, even when everything they needed was dumped in their laps.

The reason I won't list the evidence supporting Shepard is because it's simply too voluminous.  It's EVERYTHING!  Every recording, every video, every after action report, every comm. log/sensor log/door log, every interview made, every analysis conducted.  ALL of it will support Shepard.

And Liara is far from the only reputable scientist Shepard’s can point to and say “See!  Just like I said.”


Il Divo wrote...
The truth is irrelevant.

I’m sorry for mocking you.  But, in all seriousness, if you truly believe this then your perception of reality is so far different from mine that I don’t think a productive conversation between us is possible.


Il Divo wrote...
In this case, belief in Reapers alters my system of truth much more than believing that Sovereign was merely a Geth construct. From this, it follows that belief in Reapers will require much more evidence/proof.

If your forwarding that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/proof" I agree.  And I contend that if an actual Reaper coming out of a mass relay to blast a hole clean through the centre of galactic defenses doesn't qualify as extraordinary, nothing does.

#160
Naughty Bear

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General User wrote...


Il Divo wrote...
2. Different design does not equal Reaper. An advanced ship is, by definition, different.

An advanced ship is by definition advanced, but I think I see what you’re getting at, and you’re missing the point. The idea is not to show that Sovereign was a Reaper, but to show that Sovereign was different from geth vessels. When two vessels differ in virtually every aspect of their composition, components, and construction, the logical conclusion is that they have separate origins.



Not really, English and the good people of Japan and many other cultures have different styles to pretty much everything. Completely different dlife style, language and writing yet still Human overall.

Not saying Sovereign is a Geth or from a different type of Geth but just because Sovereign looks different does not mean it is not Geth overall.

#161
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If Lord Nelson went to Trafalgar with HMS Victory and a fleet of Japanese junks I think the French would have noticed something was amiss.

#162
Naughty Bear

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But the origin is Human overall, you won't start thinking they are aliens. The Geth have not been seen for yonks, no-one has hardly seen them since Mass Effect 1 so i highly doubt we have seen the best of technology, when we have a full blown war agaisnt the Geth then that is when we shall see what they are capable of.

Same with war in reality, you won't see the best and most advanced weaponry until war starts

#163
Ianamus

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Naughty Bear wrote...

General User wrote...


Il Divo wrote...
2. Different design does not equal Reaper. An advanced ship is, by definition, different.

An advanced ship is by definition advanced, but I think I see what you’re getting at, and you’re missing the point. The idea is not to show that Sovereign was a Reaper, but to show that Sovereign was different from geth vessels. When two vessels differ in virtually every aspect of their composition, components, and construction, the logical conclusion is that they have separate origins.



Not really, English and the good people of Japan and many other cultures have different styles to pretty much everything. Completely different dlife style, language and writing yet still Human overall.

Not saying Sovereign is a Geth or from a different type of Geth but just because Sovereign looks different does not mean it is not Geth overall.


Not to mention the fact that the Reapers gave the Geth Reaper tech in exchange for their help, so the Geth ships were probably built with the same technology as well.

The Council were stupid for not seeking expert advice though. The Quarians, who built the Geth in the first place  would have been ideal for judging whether Soverein was a Geth construct or not. In fact, Ascension hints that the Quarians themselves don't actually believe that Soverein was a Geth warship.

Modifié par EJ107, 26 juin 2011 - 02:51 .


#164
Il Divo

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General User wrote...

An advanced ship is by definition advanced, but I think I see what you’re getting at, and you’re missing the point. The idea is not to show that Sovereign was a Reaper, but to show that Sovereign was different from geth vessels. When two vessels differ in virtually every aspect of their composition, components, and construction, the logical conclusion is that they have separate origins.


Between the two theories of 'Reapers' vs. super-advanced Geth warship, the Reaper theory requires a fundamental reconstruction in terms of belief. "Reapers exist. They are responsible for all technological advancement and have purged the galaxy of all life for the last 37 million years." This is a difficult belief to accept, especially when it comes at odds with everything organics believe to be true.

The Geth warship, while problematic, is still in-keeping with how the Council and the galaxy at large still perceives reality.

Which Shepard has. You seem to be confusing the concepts of ‘evidence’ and ‘proof.’ NONE of the evidence before the Council proves Shepard’s story, ALL of the evidence supports it. 


It's simply an issue of semantics. We can put it your way too, if you like. There exists 'evidence' of Reapers which the Council has no means of accessing. Hence, there is no means of 'proving' their existence.

The concept of ‘burden of proof’ does not necessarily come into play in an inquisitorial proceeding. The onus is on the Council to accurately determine the events leading up to and circumstances surrounding the Battle of the Citadel, a task they failed at, even when everything they needed was dumped in their laps.


Virmire: obliterated by a nuclear warhead.
Feros: no evidence.
Ilos: Vigil shuts down.
Noveria: Benezia is dead and the Rachni Queen is either escaped/dead.

The Council is at fault here because they could not find non-existent evidence?

The reason I won't list the evidence supporting Shepard is because it's simply too voluminous.  It's EVERYTHING!  Every recording, every video, every after action report, every comm. log/sensor log/door log, every interview made, every analysis conducted.  ALL of it will support Shepard.


What recordings? What reports? What interviews? If evidence exists as you suggest it does, you should be able to point out the most significant aspects.

And Liara is far from the only reputable scientist Shepard’s can point to and say “See!  Just like I said.”


What scientists? And no, Chorban alone won't do it.  

I’m sorry for mocking you.  But, in all seriousness, if you truly believe this then your perception of reality is so far different from mine that I don’t think a productive conversation between us is possible.


'Truth', as you are describing it, does not work as an argument. What is true and what evidence I have of that truth are two entirely different things.

If only I know vampires exist, I cannot convince other people because it's the truth. Other people will be convinced based on existing evidence of vampires. The Reaper theory follows this. Truth alone is meaningless.

If your forwarding that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/proof" I agree.  And I contend that if an actual Reaper coming out of a mass relay to blast a hole clean through the centre of galactic defenses doesn't qualify as extraordinary, nothing does.


You are assuming your own conclusion. You must prove Sovereign is a Reaper for what you are suggesting to work.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 juin 2011 - 04:02 .


#165
littlezack

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It's not what you know. It's what you can prove.

#166
Il Divo

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littlezack wrote...

It's not what you know. It's what you can prove.


Exactly this. Much better than I could have put it.

#167
atheelogos

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littlezack wrote...

If I told you vampires existed, even if I had some evidence that supported my claim, would you automatically take it at face value? 

What about the recordings from the Helmets sheps team wore throughout the game.

#168
littlezack

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atheelogos wrote...

littlezack wrote...

If I told you vampires existed, even if I had some evidence that supported my claim, would you automatically take it at face value? 

What about the recordings from the Helmets sheps team wore throughout the game.


I honestly can't recall any instance that showed their helmets had recording capabilities.

#169
Il Divo

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atheelogos wrote...

What about the recordings from the Helmets sheps team wore throughout the game.


The problem with this is twofold:

1) Playthroughs where my Shepard/squad were not wearing helments throughout the mission.

2) Shepard never mentions the existence of cameras on his hardsuit. This is somewhat more problematic. The cameras are given a brief mention in the codex (and seen briefly on Eden Prime), but it's never mentioned or used again, for any purpose. Shepard doesn't make reference to any recordings he's taken and never presents it to the Council during their reports. Personally, I assumed he doesn't mention the recordings for the same reason he doesn't  mention Benezia, the Virmire facility, or the Thorian as sources of evidence when the Council doubts the existence of 'Reapers'.

In effect, it occupies the same problem as Asari mind-melding where the developers simply forget about the technology they themselves have invented.  

#170
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Il Divo wrote...
Between the two theories of 'Reapers' vs. super-advanced Geth warship, the Reaper theory requires a fundamental reconstruction in terms of belief. "Reapers exist. They are responsible for all technological advancement and have purged the galaxy of all life for the last 37 million years." This is a difficult belief to accept, especially when it comes at odds with everything organics believe to be true.

The Geth warship, while problematic, is still in-keeping with how the Council and the galaxy at large still perceives reality.


That’s just it, the Council’s perception and beliefs are in error and they’re cherry-picking to suit themselves.

Il Divo wrote...
Virmire: obliterated by a nuclear warhead.
Feros: no evidence.
Ilos: Vigil shuts down.
Noveria: Benezia is dead and the Rachni Queen is either escaped/dead.

The Council is at fault here because they could not find non-existent evidence?

Feros: Only if you leave no survivors. Potentially including a senior enemy defector.
Noveria: Shepard’s actions in at least Port Hanshan are “on the record.”
Virmire: Multiple survivors, again potentially including a senior member of Saren’s staff.
Illos: Vigil shuts down and the rest of the facility remains intact.

Il Divo wrote...
What recordings? What reports? What interviews? If evidence exists as you suggest it does, you should be able to point out the most significant aspects.


I would think that a fan of a science fiction franchise would be somewhat embarrassed to admit to such a shocking lack of imagination.

Il Divo wrote...
What scientists? And no, Chorban alone won't do it.

What about the lady who proved that the mass relays predate the protheans by a far sight?
Or the engineers who reverse engineered Sov.'s wreckage?

Il Divo wrote...

littlezack wrote...

It's not what you know. It's what you can prove.

Exactly this. Much better than I could have put it.

To prove is to show that it cannot be another way.  Proving the existence of Reapers was never Shepard's objective, stopping them was/is.  Shepard assumed that galactic leadership would be wise enough to recognize the truth when looking it right in the eye.  Shepard assumed wrong. 

Il Divo wrote...
You are assuming your own conclusion. You must prove Sovereign is a Reaper for what you are suggesting to work.

I'm not asking the Council to conclude anything from Sov.'s wreckage alone.

#171
yamomoto

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well, they dont have any visible reference to say that sovereign was a reaper, the only information widely known about reapers is that they are old sentient machines, which is then even not entirely clear to people.

the only way it would 'may' have been proven that sovereign was a reaper is if the quarians(or legion/geth) examined the wreckage or sovereign and said it wasnt geth technology, then scientists examined technology on iilos and said it wasnt prothean technology. BUT, the council could still say that it was old prothean technology since everyone believes the mass effect relays and the citidel were prothean-made, then just comparing those they could easily say there is no reaper evidence.

quarians study sovereign, say NOT geth tech
scientists study illos, say NOT prothean (illos) tech
council study citadel & relays, say IS prothean (space) tech

#172
Colintastic

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The daily prophet says that Voldemort isn't back and Harry is a liar. I don't know what to believe though really.

#173
ZLurps

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I'm not sure how canonical ME novels are but in the ME: Retribution novel Illusive Man tells Grayson that knowledge of the Reapers has been buried to avoid panic. (p. 85)

There is scene In ME2 that supports what was said in Retribution. In the Citadel there is an Avina that player can ask about few things, including Reapers. IIRC in that scene some party member or something, says that all information about Reapers is being actively removed from the extranet.

Modifié par ZLurps, 26 juin 2011 - 06:58 .


#174
George-Kinsill

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TobyHasEyes wrote...

George-Kinsill wrote...

MiniMosher wrote...

OP did you find the planet Vir? I cant remember which system its in but it may be in the minos wasteland, I found it via scan and it was filled with infinite husks and some sort of reaper artifact, I just wondered why no one ever thought ''hey where did our huge mining team go?'' or more to the point ''why are these indigo objects fully functional while every other civilisation has been obliterated with little evidence?'' the only conclusion is that the ones who made the artifacts are still in buisness, but I guessed they dismissed the claim :/


The planet you are thinking of is Aequitas, in the Fortis system of the Minos Wasteland. Yeah, that was a really weird mission, and now that Arrival is out, it was clearly the same as Object Rho, and if I'm not mistaken, it was just burried and not destroyed, right? What Shepard should do is tell the Council to look under there for evidence of the Reapers (which there is) but I doubt that will happen. But yeah, there seem to be these Reaper artifacts also just laying across the galaxy. There was also some other Reaper artifact in ME1 on Logan, Theseus System in the Attican Beta cluster that turned a bunch of scientists into husks. Why is the council not investigating these Reaper artifacts that show the Geth didn't invent husks? Clearly another ball dropped by the council. 


 Prothean artifacts (beacons, data disks) are still around and operational, so the discovery of some other operational old technology isn't an instant pointer to a Reaper-like threat

 And artifacts that make people husks? With these events,  I think the lack of witness' is one point, and probably more importantly the geth use husks as well.. so seeing as the official line is that attacks are the nasty ole Geth that evidence fits the bill (if they don't investigate too deeply, which with half a galaxy to look over probably happens a lot)


They really don't do any investigation, as its noted in ME1 how strange it is that all these husks were made so far from any geth presence (as its on the other side of the galaxy pretty much) and the scientists uncovered it, not placed there recently, which should be pretty easy to tell. I agree with you, that sure, everyone would like to blame the geth, but the fact the council didn't do any investigation that would have easily revealed these things as artifacts that predate the geth and protheans, is really quite absured. The evidence is out there, littering the galaxy, and as in the case of these side missions, in plain view, but everyone but Shepard seems to lazy to investigate it. Technically one could say the fact tht Shepard was there constitutes a Council investigation, but since they don't believe anything he says about the Reapers, they should at the very least corrobarate it then, not just sit on their cloacas and mock Shepard with air quotes. This alone as you stated, would not prove Reaper origin, but at the very least that husks and indoctrination is an OLD technology, predating Saren, the geth, and the Protheans.

#175
atheelogos

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littlezack wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

littlezack wrote...

If I told you vampires existed, even if I had some evidence that supported my claim, would you automatically take it at face value? 

What about the recordings from the Helmets sheps team wore throughout the game.


I honestly can't recall any instance that showed their helmets had recording capabilities.

Ashley said they did back in ME1. I'll try and find the link.