211 réponses à ce sujet

[Ja5ck]

they are well aware of the reapers existence, (at least the Salarians and Turians) but are denying it for whatever BS political reason

[littlezack]

Here's a thought - even if the Council believed Shepard 100%, what would that change, really?

[Heimdall]

General User wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Please present this evidence that Sovereign is anything other than an advanced ship.

   
Sovereign is an advanced ship. All Reapers are. 
-By the Council’s own admission, Sovereign is markedly different from every other geth ship. 
-Shepard and company’s testimony and the SR-1’s mission logs.
-Any testimony or physical evidence the Council cares to collect form Feros, Noveria, Virmire, or Illos will support Shepard's story. It has to because Shepard’s story is true.

-Different from other Geth ships =/= crewed by a full AI and there are hundreds waiting to invade the galaxy.  This alone is not evidence of the Reapers.
-The only evidence they can collect from feros, noveria, or ilos would prove that geth had been there and that the geth believe in the reapers, nothing else.  Sovereign was never at those locations.  All evidence from Virmire was obliterated in a nuclear explosion.
-All Shepard and his crew's testimony can prove is that they believe in the Reapers

Lord Aesir wrote...
There is no evidence supportingthe idea that there are other ships like it out there, let alone ancient AIs waiting to destroy them.  All they have is Shepard's word. 

Shepard is their personal agent sent to investigate the matter, not some chap off the street. And every bit of evidence that is available to the Council corroborates Shepard’s “word.”

  And not a shred of that evidence indicates that there are a fleet of super AI warships waiting outside the galaxy to kill them all.  Like I've said, they trust Shepard to tell them what he believes to be the truth, that doesn't mean they are willing to believe such an insane theory without strong evidence indicating it is true.  Such evidence they do not have.

Lord Aesir wrote...
So they go with the least preposterous explaination hat doesn't sound like a wacked conspiracy theory, that Sovereign was a Geth.

No. They went with a theory that fit their own preferences despite evidence to the contrary.

  They go with the theory that seemed a lot more likely than Shepard's.

Lord Aesir wrote...
Does it fit perfectly?  No, but there is certainly nothing pointing the Reaper theory as any better. 

You know what does 'fit perfectly'?  Shepard's version of events.

Do you know why it 'fits perfectly'?  Because it's true.

  The truth is one thing, what Shepard can prove is another.  The Council doesn't have to disprove Shepard's theory, it has to be proven to them, and it cannot.

Lord Aesir wrote...
Especially when they believe Shpard has fallen for a ruse by Saren.

Are you trying to say that the Council is capable of Olympic-level mental gymnastics in order to justify their own prejudiced theories?  If so, I agree entirely.

  Saren was devious, clever, and intelligent.  He is easily capable of such a deception, as he fooled the council.  The folly would be in assuming Shepard was immune to his deceit.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 26 juin 2011 - 11:58 .

[Heimdall]

General User wrote...
To prove is to show that it cannot be another way.  Proving the existence of Reapers was never Shepard's objective, stopping them was/is.  Shepard assumed that galactic leadership would be wise enough to recognize the truth when looking it right in the eye.  Shepard assumed wrong.

  So you want the Council to magically accept something that sounds like a wild conspiracy theory that cannot be proven and believe it.  I would consider them terribly irresponsible if they did.  As they said, the Council is responsible for governing half the galaxy and thus they cannot accept something that unlikely sounding without a good deal of evidence.

There is nothing proving Sovereign was one of many omnicidal AI hellbent on galactic destruction on Feros or Noveria

All evidence on Virmire was blown away

Vigil was pretty much the last functioning thing on Ilos and it shut itself down after Shepard saw it.

[OdanUrr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

So you want the Council to magically accept something that sounds like a wild conspiracy theory that cannot be proven and believe it.  I would consider them terribly irresponsible if they did.  As they said, the Council is responsible for governing half the galaxy and thus they cannot accept something that unlikely sounding without a good deal of evidence.

There is nothing proving Sovereign was one of many omnicidal AI hellbent on galactic destruction on Feros or Noveria

All evidence on Virmire was blown away

Vigil was pretty much the last functioning thing on Ilos and it shut itself down after Shepard saw it.

It is equally irresponsible not to investigate these claims. Yes, they went to Ilos but that's not pushing the matter very far. I mean, Cerberus with its resources found the derelict Reaper on Mnemosyne. There's likely more evidence out there of the existence of the Reapers (and how they're not related to the Geth) and the Council is bound to have more resources than Cerberus.

[littlezack]

The difference being that Cerebus believes in the Reapers, and the Council doesn't. Why look for something that you don't believe exists? 

[OdanUrr]

littlezack wrote...

The difference being that Cerebus believes in the Reapers, and the Council doesn't. Why look for something that you don't believe exists? 

The Council once dismissed Shepard's claims that Saren was a traitor and that was later proven to be the case. If Shepard now says big, bad aliens are coming to kill us all, I'd look into it just in case.

[George-Kinsill]

OdanUrr wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

So you want the Council to magically accept something that sounds like a wild conspiracy theory that cannot be proven and believe it.  I would consider them terribly irresponsible if they did.  As they said, the Council is responsible for governing half the galaxy and thus they cannot accept something that unlikely sounding without a good deal of evidence.

There is nothing proving Sovereign was one of many omnicidal AI hellbent on galactic destruction on Feros or Noveria

All evidence on Virmire was blown away

Vigil was pretty much the last functioning thing on Ilos and it shut itself down after Shepard saw it.

It is equally irresponsible not to investigate these claims. Yes, they went to Ilos but that's not pushing the matter very far. I mean, Cerberus with its resources found the derelict Reaper on Mnemosyne. There's likely more evidence out there of the existence of the Reapers (and how they're not related to the Geth) and the Council is bound to have more resources than Cerberus.

Yeah, if the Council has the same dedication as Cerberus (in investigating, not torturing and the like) they would have found more than enough evidence. Sure, the Reaper theory may be hard to swallow, but considering the implications, they need to investigate it for the good of the galaxy. Cerberus is a small organization, that spent most of its funds on Lazuras and the Normandy SR-2, yet they found an actual Reaper, while the council's investigation was a lazy half @ssed look at Ilos, and that was it, even though they have exponentially more funds than Cerberus, and more of a reason to do so, being the organization charged with protecting the galaxy. Again, I get it, its a far-fatched idea, but when the dots are connected, from the sudden mysterious dissappearances of every past civilization, Artifacts that randomly indoctrinate and turn people into husks, an attack by a warship that decimated the citadel fleet, and the word of a great Spectre, they should do a more thorough investigation. Even if there is a 1 in 1000 chance of it being true, the implications of it being true are infinitely disasterous.

[littlezack]

Aside from the defunct Vigil, what on Ilos could have proved the Reapers existence, anyway? All they would find were a bunch of dead Protheans and maybe some files in a language they can't even read.

[George-Kinsill]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Here's a thought - even if the Council believed Shepard 100%, what would that change, really?

A much better preparation for the Reaper invasion.

...Such as not putting an entire fleet in one spot where it can easily be destroyed in a matter of minutes (i.e. the opposite of what the entire alliance fleet does at the beginning of ME3).

[littlezack]

George-Kinsill wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Here's a thought - even if the Council believed Shepard 100%, what would that change, really?

A much better preparation for the Reaper invasion.

...Such as not putting an entire fleet in one spot where it can easily be destroyed in a matter of minutes (i.e. the opposite of what the entire alliance fleet does at the beginning of ME3).

How would spreading them out make any difference? The Reapers are impervious to their weaponry.

[littlezack]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Here's a thought - even if the Council believed Shepard 100%, what would that change, really?

A much better preparation for the Reaper invasion.

Such as...

[OdanUrr]

littlezack wrote...

Aside from the defunct Vigil, what on Ilos could have proved the Reapers existence, anyway? All they would find were a bunch of dead Protheans and maybe some files in a language they can't even read.

Who said anything about restricting the investigation to Ilos? Going as far as ME1, Liara found signs that pointed to the extinction cycle being brought about by the Reapers. There are a number of worlds with Prothean ruins that could serve as a starting point.

[littlezack]

OdanUrr wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Aside from the defunct Vigil, what on Ilos could have proved the Reapers existence, anyway? All they would find were a bunch of dead Protheans and maybe some files in a language they can't even read.

Who said anything about restricting the investigation to Ilos?

Um, this guy.

Cerberus is a small organization, that spent most of its funds on Lazuras and the Normandy SR-2, yet they found- an actual Reaper, while the council's investigation was a lazy half @ssed look at Ilos,

 

Going as far as ME1, Liara found signs that pointed to the extinction cycle being brought about by the Reapers. There are a number of worlds with Prothean ruins that could serve as a starting point.

True, but that's just Liara. Even she makes a point of saying that her theories are just that - theories, and not widely popular ones at that. In fact, I think she flat out admits that she doesn't have any hard evidence for her claims, and that it's more or less just a hunch.

Modifié par littlezack, 27 juin 2011 - 01:03 .

[OdanUrr]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

(...) making beacons to warn future species in case they fail (...)

LOL, I kinda called dibs on that one. I proposed a ME3 trailer concept of Shepard doing just that here, only a few hours ago.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 27 juin 2011 - 01:31 .

[littlezack]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Here's a thought - even if the Council believed Shepard 100%, what would that change, really?

A much better preparation for the Reaper invasion.

Such as...

Do I really have to answer this?

Increasing military recruitment, increasing the number of ships and planetery defenses, increase in weaponary such as the Thanix cannon, warning others about the dangers of indoctrination, making secret hideouts all across the galaxy like the Protheins did on Ilos, planning tactics, gathering allies, working together with other species, making sure they don't repeat the same mistakes that the previous civilizations did with the Citadel, making beacons to warn future species in case they fail, helping out Shepard to carry out missions, etc.

Increasing military recruitment and ships won't do a damn thing to help - again, numbers aren't really the problem. Well, they are, but there are so many Reapers that creating the number of ships needed to counter them all in time would be astronomical, to say the least, and that's even assuming that, if they had enough ships, they could destroy a Reaper through sheer bombardment. 

Warning about indoctrination doesn't help. Knowing about indoctrination doesn't make you immune.

Finding a hideout big enough to hold civilizations would take decades - and it would also have to be done in complete secrecy, since the Reapers can monitor civilization through the Collectors and other means. The Protheans didn't make the hideout on Illos because of the Reapers, it just so happened to already be there for them and they took advantage of the secrecy. 

They don't have to worry about repeating the same mistakes the previous civilizations did with the Citadel - the Keepers don't follow Reaper instructions anymore. The Reapers can't get into the Citadel, at least not the way they're used to.

They don't have the technology to make beacons, at least not like the Protheans did. The only reason the Reapers didn't find the Prothean beacons is because they were designed to only work on a Prothean mind. Anything else, and the Reapers would likely find it and destroy it.

Modifié par littlezack, 27 juin 2011 - 01:38 .

[Arijharn]

Wulfram wrote...

I tend to believe that the Council do believe in the reapers, but are keeping that secret to avoid panic. Really, their determination to hush things up is excessive if they really thought it was just a loony theory.

I also don't tend to put much store by the planet descriptions - I get the impression that most are just bashed out as filler. After all, Liara's theory about there being any cycle of extinctions was supposed to be novel and only obvious after 40 years of research. Not blatantly obvious to anyone who looked.

I'm inclined to agree with this as well, especially considering:
• Mordin's research into Indoctrination (as confirmed by the SB dossiers)... and the fact that Maelon knows what you're talking about.
• And, if the live action trailer for ME3 is anything to go by, the Alliance fleet is amassing to protect Earth. The interviewee just jumps straight ahead and says not to put any credence into the theory of sentient warships about to devour us all.
• The artifact that was essentially the pretext for the entire First Contact War.

I think they know about the Reapers very well, but may not be fully cognizant of the threat they represent, or alternatively they do know yet don't want mass riots etc.

I can tell you right now that if I was a politician in this scenario then damn straight I'd suppress the truth. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be taking steps to try and defeat it. At some point though, it would reach critical mass and it would come out, but it's better to find out if it does eventuate, rather than to just pre-emptively announce it... because lets face it, that would be just stupid.

[General User]

Lord Aesir wrote...
-Different from other Geth ships =/= crewed by a full AI and there are hundreds waiting to invade the galaxy.  This alone is not evidence of the Reapers.
-The only evidence they can collect from feros, noveria, or ilos would prove that geth had been there and that the geth believe in the reapers, nothing else.  Sovereign was never at those locations.  All evidence from Virmire was obliterated in a nuclear explosion.
-All Shepard and his crew's testimony can prove is that they believe in the Reapers

Even as you list them, these things support Shepard’s version. 

Was Sov. not at Feros?  How did Saren get there?  Virmire had several survivors, even some not on Shepard's crew. 

Besides, no one has to prove or disprove anything, and no one was ever trying to. Shepard's role was military.  The Council’s proper role in this matter is inquisitorial in nature. 

Lord Aesir wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Does it fit perfectly?  No, but there is certainly nothing pointing the Reaper theory as any better. 

You know what does 'fit perfectly'?  Shepard's version of events.

Do you know why it 'fits perfectly'?  Because it's true.

  The truth is one thing, what Shepard can prove is another.  The Council doesn't have to disprove Shepard's theory, it has to be proven to them, and it cannot.

I beg your pardon, but as a man of science, and when I see someone reject a theory that fits all available evidence in favor of one that does not and/or has serious counter indications, it strikes me as anathema.

Lord Aesir wrote...
Saren was devious, clever, and intelligent.  He is easily capable of such a deception, as he fooled the council.  The folly would be in assuming Shepard was immune to his deceit.

Assuming Saren was able to deceive Shepard because Saren was able to deceive them doesn’t make the Council less foolish, just more arrogant.

[Arijharn]

I would think though that since Shephard is an agent specifically charged with extra-judicial capabilities and responsibilities that perhaps the Council should think that perhaps (s)he might have a reason to be concerned.

The Council assuming that Reapers exist is neither here nor there imo, just that they might think that there is a threat out there. It doesn't matter if you call them Reapers or anything else just that steps are taken.

Having said that though; I'm guessing that in the events of ME2, the Council has every reason to be wary of Shephard. Not least of which is the reason that their own intelligence services pinpointed our (wo)man as working for an 'avowed enemy.'

[Heimdall]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
-Different from other Geth ships =/= crewed by a full AI and there are hundreds waiting to invade the galaxy.  This alone is not evidence of the Reapers.
-The only evidence they can collect from feros, noveria, or ilos would prove that geth had been there and that the geth believe in the reapers, nothing else.  Sovereign was never at those locations.  All evidence from Virmire was obliterated in a nuclear explosion.
-All Shepard and his crew's testimony can prove is that they believe in the Reapers
[/quote]

Even as you list them, these things support Shepard’s version. 

Was Sov. not at Feros?  How did Saren get there?  Virmire had several survivors, even some not on Shepard's crew. 

Besides, no one has to prove or disprove anything, and no one was ever trying to. Shepard's role was military.  The Council’s proper role in this matter is inquisitorial in nature.  [/quote]  Those things also support the version that Saren is putting on a show to keep the Geth and Shepard convinced of the Reaper's existance.

Even if Sovereign had been to Feros, pray tell what evidence it could have left behind to prove that it was anything but a Geth crewed vessel.


[quote] [quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
[quote]
[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
Does it fit perfectly?  No, but there is certainly nothing pointing the Reaper theory as any better. 
[/quote]
You know what does 'fit perfectly'?  Shepard's version of events.

Do you know why it 'fits perfectly'?  Because it's true.[/quote]  The truth is one thing, what Shepard can prove is another.  The Council doesn't have to disprove Shepard's theory, it has to be proven to them, and it cannot.
[/quote]
I beg your pardon, but as a man of science, and when I see someone reject a theory that fits all available evidence in favor of one that does not and/or has serious counter indications, it strikes me as anathema. [/quote]  The Saren-is-a-master-manipulater-and-used-an-advanced-ship-to-convince-the-Geth-and-Shepard-the-god-machines-were-returning theory fits the evidence as well and sounds a lot more likely to any sensible being.[/quote]


[quote][quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
Saren was devious, clever, and intelligent.  He is easily capable of such a deception, as he fooled the council.  The folly would be in assuming Shepard was immune to his deceit.
[/quote]
Assuming Saren was able to deceive Shepard because Saren was able to deceive them doesn’t make the Council less foolish, just more arrogant.
[/quote]  When Shepard being decieved is more likely than Shepard being correct, and any rational being would believe that Shepard was being decieved rather than in the existance of space bogeymen.  It is only logical to consider that Saren may be putting Shepard on, trying to mislead him.  Imagine yourself as a being in the Mass Effect universe and tell me you wouldn't consider a traiter being duplicitous more likely than omnicidal machines nobody has ever found heard of before.

Should the Council investigation have been more thorough?  Perhaps.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 juin 2011 - 06:49 .

[General User]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Those things also support the version that Saren is putting on a show to keep the Geth and Shepard convinced of the Reaper's existance.

The difference is the Council’s version was formed after the fact, based on prejudices that existed beforehand. Believing the Council’s version requires dismissing all key testimony, multiple recordings and logs, diverse scientific analysis, and generously massaging physical evidence.  

Lord Aesir wrote...
The Saren-is-a-master-manipulater-and-used-an-advanced-ship-to-convince-the-Geth-and-Shepard-the-god-machines-were-returning theory fits the evidence as well and sounds a lot more likely to any sensible being.

It doesn’t makes sense for Saren to be able to use Sovereign to convince the geth of the Reapers existence if Sovereign was itself a geth construct. 

Lord Aesir wrote...
When Shepard being decieved is more likely than Shepard being correct, and any rational being would believe that Shepard was being decieved rather than in the existance of space bogeymen.  It is only logical to consider that Saren may be putting Shepard on, trying to mislead him.  Imagine yourself as a being in the Mass Effect universe and tell me you wouldn't consider a traiter being duplicitous more likely than omnicidal machines nobody has ever found heard of before.

What is illogical un-sceintific is to simply assume that to be true and custom tailor a theory to fit that assumption.


And that's the heart of the problem with the Council's theories, they all ultimately rest on the idea: "Saren was able to manipulate others, be they geth or human, as easily and/or as thoroughly as he manipulated us."  It's a fallacy born of arrogance on the face of it, and is demonstrably false.  Saren is not a master manipulator, never has been, at least not when it comes to humans (or geth apparently).

Modifié par General User, 27 juin 2011 - 01:33 .

[Il Divo]

General User wrote...

That’s just it, the Council’s perception and beliefs are in error and they’re cherry-picking to suit themselves.

Except they don't think their beliefs are in error. Which makes more sense:

1. That Sovereign is a highly advanced geth construct.

2. That Sovereign is a Reaper, a 37 million year old race of machines which periodically purges the galaxy of all life. And that they are responsible for manipulating the existence of all organic species everywhere.

Theory # 1's only issue is that Sovereign is more advanced than the Geth warship, but still fits closer to current beliefs than your imaginary Reapers.

Feros: Only if you leave no survivors. Potentially including a senior enemy defector.
Noveria: Shepard’s actions in at least Port Hanshan are “on the record.”
Virmire: Multiple survivors, again potentially including a senior member of Saren’s staff.
Illos: Vigil shuts down and the rest of the facility remains intact.

Feros: And those survivors know nothing.
Noveria: Shepard's actions in Port Hanshan had nothing to do with Saren.
Virmire: The Salarian team knows nothing, beyond the existence of the Krogan cure.
Ilos: What evidence exists of Reapers on Ilos, without Vigil? The facility's purpose was to create relay technology.

I would think that a fan of a science fiction franchise would be somewhat embarrassed to admit to such a shocking lack of imagination.

Imagining non-existent evidence to prove your argument does not fall within the domains of sci-fi.

What about the lady who proved that the mass relays predate the protheans by a far sight?
Or the engineers who reverse engineered Sov.'s wreckage?

So the engineers proved Sovereign was an advanced warship?

And did this woman prove that Reapers were the answer?

  Shepard assumed that galactic leadership would be wise enough to recognize the truth when looking it right in the eye.  Shepard assumed wrong. 

 Let's rephrase that:

Shepard assumed that galactic leadership would be dumb enough to believe a mad-man's ravings without any evidence to back him up.

Wisdom means accepting facts based on evidence. Shepard has not presented evidence.

And I'm still waiting on all yours, by the way.

Modifié par Il Divo, 27 juin 2011 - 04:36 .