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[Heimdall]

General User wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Those things also support the version that Saren is putting on a show to keep the Geth and Shepard convinced of the Reaper's existance.

The difference is the Council’s version was formed after the fact, based on prejudices that existed beforehand. Believing the Council’s version requires dismissing all key testimony, multiple recordings and logs, diverse scientific analysis, and generously massaging physical evidence. 

  The Council's version takes into account what they know of the galaxy and what seems likely.  The Reaper version requires them to dismiss many of the things that have stood as established fact for centuries if not thousands of years without any evidence and make several nonsensical massive leaps in logic.  That is not something any rational being does.

Pray tell what logs and recordings you're talking about.  They do not seem to exist.

Lord Aesir wrote...
The Saren-is-a-master-manipulater-and-used-an-advanced-ship-to-convince-the-Geth-and-Shepard-the-god-machines-were-returning theory fits the evidence as well and sounds a lot more likely to any sensible being.

It doesn’t makes sense for Saren to be able to use Sovereign to convince the geth of the Reapers existence if Sovereign was itself a geth construct.

  It's easy, I'll gice you an example.  Saren discovers a piece of Prothean technology and uses it to construct a prototype dreadnaught.  He then uses it to convince the Geth of the Reaper's existance and the ship is crewed and modified by the Geth.  See? Geth ship, advanced ship.  This fits the evidence and seems more likely than the Reaper theory given what the Council knows of the galaxy.

Lord Aesir wrote...
When Shepard being decieved is more likely than Shepard being correct, and any rational being would believe that Shepard was being decieved rather than in the existance of space bogeymen.  It is only logical to consider that Saren may be putting Shepard on, trying to mislead him.  Imagine yourself as a being in the Mass Effect universe and tell me you wouldn't consider a traiter being duplicitous more likely than omnicidal machines nobody has ever found heard of before.

What is illogical un-sceintific is to simply assume that to be true and custom tailor a theory to fit that assumption.

  So what makes the Reaper theory any different?  It seems you expect them to assume that is true with your insistance that it doesn't need to be proven.  They saw evidence and created a theory that seems likely and fits the evidence, what's more scientific than that?

And that's the heart of the problem with the Council's theories, they all ultimately rest on the idea: "Saren was able to manipulate others, be they geth or human, as easily and/or as thoroughly as he manipulated us."  It's a fallacy born of arrogance on the face of it, and is demonstrably false.  Saren is not a master manipulator, never has been, at least not when it comes to humans (or geth apparently).

They know Saren can decieve and lie effectively, that is also demonstratable, hell, he sat on his discovery of Soverign for about twenty years before Eden Prime.  Why do you think it would not be foolish for them to assume Saren is telling them the truth.  Saren has every reason to lie and try to mislead Shepard.  Why should they assume he isn't?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 juin 2011 - 10:05 .

[General User]

Lord Aesir wrote...
The Council's version takes into account what they know of the galaxy and what seems likely.  The Reaper version requires them to dismiss many of the things that have stood as established fact for centuries if not thousands of years without any evidence and make several nonsensical massive leaps in logic.  That is not something any rational being does.

You are not far wrong.

The Council's version takes into account what they believe about the galaxy and what seems likely. The Reaper version requires them to dismiss many of the things that have stood as accepted fact for centuries if not thousands of years.  It’s the Council's unwillingness to question their own beliefs that makes them so worthy of contempt. It’s their willingness to treat accepted fact as established fact that gives their theory feet of clay.

To do this they are merely required to correctly interpret the evidence available to them, all of it.   Doing so requires not only rationality, but also intelligence and integrity. 

Lord Aesir wrote...
It's easy, I'll gice you an example.  Saren discovers a piece of Prothean technology and uses it to construct a prototype dreadnaught.  He then uses it to convince the Geth of the Reaper's existance and the ship is crewed and modified by the Geth.  See? Geth ship, advanced ship.

Pieces of technology used to construct ships are called shipyards. And further down the rabbit hole we go.

Lord Aesir wrote...
So what makes the Reaper theory any different?

How it was formed, when it was formed, and the evidence it includes. 

Lord Aesir wrote...
It seems you expect them to assume that is true with your insistance that it doesn't need to be proven.

Yes to the first, no(ish) to the second.

As the Council itself says in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of the Citadel, Shepard has more than earned their trust.  And I've tried to be very deliberate in my use of the words 'proof' and 'prove,' if I've used one of them improperly I apologize.

Lord Aesir wrote...
They know Saren can decieve and lie effectively, that is also demonstratable, hell, he sat on his discovery of Soverign for about twenty years before Eden Prime.  Why do you think it would not be foolish for them to assume Saren is telling them the truth.  Saren has every reason to lie and try to mislead Shepard.  Why should they assume he isn't?

Again you are very near to right. It is logical to assume Saren is attempting to deceive Shepard, it is illogical (and arrogant) to assume Saren succeeded.

Modifié par General User, 27 juin 2011 - 10:58 .

[Vengeful Nature]

Theory 1: The Council do know about the Reapers, but Shepard is now seen as a liability for working with Cerberus and is cut out of the loop. They are well aware of the threat and are preparing for it quietly, putting assets into place but doing all this behind the scenes so as not to alert the Reapers and cause a massive panic. An executive body in charge of a massive galactic organisation are, naturally, cleverer than many people give them credit for.

Theory 2: The Council were handed a massive idiot ball. Poor writing is responsible.

I usually alternate between these two, depending on my mood. <_<

Time will tell. I suspect we'll get the answers in ME3. Whether they are satisfactory or not remains to be seen.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 27 juin 2011 - 11:17 .

[Abispa]

The Citadel itself is Reaper technology. The Council has been indoctrinated for some time (maybe Saren's back up plan). At least, that's my theory anyway.

[Heimdall]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
The Council's version takes into account what they know of the galaxy and what seems likely.  The Reaper version requires them to dismiss many of the things that have stood as established fact for centuries if not thousands of years without any evidence and make several nonsensical massive leaps in logic.  That is not something any rational being does.
[/quote]You are not far wrong.

The Council's version takes into account what they believe about the galaxy and what seems likely. The Reaper version requires them to dismiss many of the things that have stood as accepted fact for centuries if not thousands of years.  It’s the Council's unwillingness to question their own beliefs that makes them so worthy of contempt. It’s their willingness to treat accepted fact as established fact that gives their theory feet of clay.

To do this they are merely required to correctly interpret the evidence available to them, all of it.   Doing so requires not only rationality, but also intelligence and integrity.  [/quote]  And how are they supposed to know which interpretation is correct, hmm?

Both theories fit the evidence, one makes more sense given accepted fact than the other, which simply sounds absurd.  You are asing them to be illogical.  What reason have they to question their own beliefs when none of the evidence contradicts them?

[quote][quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
It's easy, I'll gice you an example.  Saren discovers a piece of Prothean technology and uses it to construct a prototype dreadnaught.  He then uses it to convince the Geth of the Reaper's existance and the ship is crewed and modified by the Geth.  See? Geth ship, advanced ship.
[/quote]Pieces of technology used to construct ships are called shipyards. And further down the rabbit hole we go.[/quote]  A Shipyard is a place where ships are built, not a component of a ship.  There is no point to this comment.  My scenario fits the evidence.


[quote][quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
So what makes the Reaper theory any different?
[/quote]How it was formed, when it was formed, and the evidence it includes.[/quote] [/quote]  The how only brings it into further question.  Hallucinations, unverifiable sources like vigil and Saren's word.  The when is irrelevant.  They include the same evidence, as far as what the Council has available is concerned.


[quote][quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
It seems you expect them to assume that is true with your insistance that it doesn't need to be proven.
[/quote]Yes to the first, no(ish) to the second.

As the Council itself says in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of the Citadel, Shepard has more than earned their trust.  And I've tried to be very deliberate in my use of the words 'proof' and 'prove,' if I've used one of them improperly I apologize.[/quote]  As I've said multiple times, trusting Shepard to tell them what he believes is the truth, which they do, is different from believing everything he says is true.


[quote][quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
They know Saren can decieve and lie effectively, that is also demonstratable, hell, he sat on his discovery of Soverign for about twenty years before Eden Prime.  Why do you think it would not be foolish for them to assume Saren is telling them the truth.  Saren has every reason to lie and try to mislead Shepard.  Why should they assume he isn't?
[/quote]

Again you are very near to right. It is logical to assume Saren is attempting to deceive Shepard, it is illogical (and arrogant) to assume Saren succeeded.[/quote]  Again, it is equally illogical to assume that Saren failed.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 28 juin 2011 - 12:17 .

[Chromie]

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Abispa wrote...

The Citadel itself is Reaper technology. The Council has been indoctrinated for some time (maybe Saren's back up plan). At least, that's my theory anyway.

I think you are right about that. It would be a good scheme to slowly indoctrinate the Council at Citadel Station to make it self-satisfied and unready for a full scale assault. It would allow the Reapers quickly to gain control of the Mass Relay network. That is probably Harbinger´s backup plan, not Saren´s or Sovereign´s because they would have used it to open the Citadel relay and let other Reapers in. Saren and Sovereign probably didn´t know about that. My guess is that they would have needed another Reaper to activate the indoctrination and to open the Citadel Relay. That is one reason why they needed the Human Reaper.

Another interesting thing is that if the Council is indoctrinated then it is the task for Spectres to remove the tainted Council. It Spectre´s duty to maintain the galactic stability and if the Council is really indoctrinated then they are a threat to the galactic stability. However, proving that would be very interesting.

[Nashiktal]

I think we should take into account that its not the council's job to change their beliefs and preconceptions, as much as it would help everyone and save lives.

History has shown us that much at least, and considering we don't have time for a revolution (or at least regime change) until after the fact means we can't really do much until the reapers hit.

[stewie1974]

Lord Aesir wrote...

It's easy, I'll gice you an example.  Saren discovers a piece of Prothean technology and uses it to construct a prototype dreadnaught.  He then uses it to convince the Geth of the Reaper's existance and the ship is crewed and modified by the Geth.  See? Geth ship, advanced ship.  This fits the evidence and seems more likely than the Reaper theory given what the Council knows of the galaxy.

You'd think the council would have some evidence of Saren -building- a massive starship....

Shipyards required to build a reaper scale starship would be enormous. That would leave a physical "trail" as well as a financial one.... ((workers require payment and the resources to build ships of such magnatude are not cheap))

Even if assembled in parts , it would still require -assembly- somewhere with the staff and resources available.

If the council believes the geth built it for saren, then the geth would know that it wasn't a "reaper", so it invalidates the council claim that "saren convinced the geth to follow him because he told them his massive starship was a god"

So the question for the council would be...

So the geth didn't build it.... who did, and where is the evidence of its construction. I'm sure intell isn't so poor that billions of credits pooled into the secret construction of a star ship would remain a secret from the combined intelligence forces of the galaxy.

Modifié par stewie1974, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:32 .

[George-Kinsill]

stewie1974 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It's easy, I'll gice you an example.  Saren discovers a piece of Prothean technology and uses it to construct a prototype dreadnaught.  He then uses it to convince the Geth of the Reaper's existance and the ship is crewed and modified by the Geth.  See? Geth ship, advanced ship.  This fits the evidence and seems more likely than the Reaper theory given what the Council knows of the galaxy.

You'd think the council would have some evidence of Saren -building- a massive starship....

Shipyards required to build a reaper scale starship would be enormous. That would leave a physical "trail" as well as a financial one.... ((workers require payment and the resources to build ships of such magnatude are not cheap))

Even if assembled in parts , it would still require -assembly- somewhere with the staff and resources available.

If the council believes the geth built it for saren, then the geth would know that it wasn't a "reaper", so it invalidates the council claim that "saren convinced the geth to follow him because he told them his massive starship was a god"

So the question for the council would be...

So the geth didn't build it.... who did, and where is the evidence of its construction. I'm sure intell isn't so poor that billions of credits pooled into the secret construction of a star ship would remain a secret from the combined intelligence forces of the galaxy.

Adding to your argument, also Soveriegn was a Dreadnought class starship, and even the Turians only have 32 of them, and humanity has only 8. So saying that Saren somehow had the resources to build one of the most powerful eapons in the galaxy is just absurd.

Also. if the Geth believed that Soveriegn was a god, why the hell would this "god" allow itself to be modified? If it is the appex of synthetic evolution, no modifications would be needed, so the Geth would not believe it to be a god. And if they did at first (which is impossible) then repairing/modifying it would have neccesitated the ability for it to go into Soveriegns internal networks and hard drives, in which they would see that it was an advanced construct, but by no means a Reaper (as this was the way the Geth came to know Soveriegn as "Nazara").

And finally, even if the STG somehow didn't know Saren was constructing a Reaper, the shadow broker would notice hundreds of billions of credits, if not trillions, being moved around, and sell this info. Even if the theory that Soveriegn was a prthean/some othe species construct that needed modifcation, billions of credits and workers would be needed to move the starship and get to be operational enough to get it into Geth space.