129 réponses à ce sujet

[CajNatalie]

m14567 wrote...

I think global is the best personally, and in the above example:

I use tech armor, 3 seconds later I use throw, apparently I can use tech armor again after 3 seconds.

Ouch, I think you just broke the idea. =/
It looked so good, too.
>.<

[Repearized Miranda]

Nyoka wrote...

I don't quite get why global cooldown encourages using always the same power. If I charge, and then 6 seconds later I have all my powers available, I don't feel the need to charge again. For example, I have gone through Grunt's recruitment a couple hours ago. There is an outdoors corridor at some point with some blue suns behind cover, including a rocket launcher. I charged the first one, then used shockwave to take the rest out of cover. Could someone help me out with this?

One of the reasons you answered in your first sense - that being it would depend on your character, but it would also depend on the playstyle - in which the difficulty level can affect minimally or greatly - and it does.

Casual gameplay usually means you could just run up on an deck an enemy as they are pretty much useless (overall AI tuning is a different issue). The other end being staying back because they run up on you on Insanity. This doesn't mean that you still couldn't invert these playstyles, but try running up on Harby on Insanity! Chances are slim you won't get popped - even if you don't die. (I did this in the SM and went "That was close!" I've seen squadmates rush enemies fearing they get decked, but take them out. It can and has been done, but it is not advised!)

I'm not saying that multiple abilites can't be used (see Mesina's video link); however, think about this this way.

What about your squadmates signature powers. Though they only have three, switching even at a steady rate would hinder the player somewhat. Do you think that Garrus switching between AP Ammo and Overload is effective to take out shields, then inverting this to take out armor? It works, but I think he'd rather exhaust Overload until the shields are down, then exhaust AP Ammo to tear down armor. (Guess the enemy he's facing?)

This is Mesina's point, too! Everybody is just focused on Shepard completely ignoring their squadmates as if to say: "Let's really make this a SP experience!" in every sense! Yet, when I have said, "Sometimes it's better to play alone until you need help," as this may as well be done since Shepard is "too invincible!" (Solidier, Sentinel). However, I hear more about Adepts, Vangaurds being hindered, but no one mentions how in that case that using your squadmates is very benefical. Again, they seem to want the total aspect of a SP game!

I'm an "overpowered" character, but I still utilize my squadmates!

IA when you say that once you've used a power to exhaust a defense, it isn't needed; however, if you can "kill two birds with one stone," (Warp is ridiculous against all defenses), why not do that - you can throw in some gunplay as well. No one said you had to do this, but if it suits your particular play-style ... and it's not meant just for the player as you can adapt your squadmates to either style as well. (ie: Tell them to get into cover or follow you the entire fight)

Modifié par Repearized Miranda, 24 juin 2011 - 03:02 .

[Dave666]

Nyoka wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

But IMO it would actively encourage using combo's, rather than ME:2's 'spam your strongest power'.

Ah, I think I understand now why you think global cooldown encourages using always the same power (the strongest one). How does this idea applies to the example I gave in my last comment? I feel different situations require different powers. If I see five guys behind cover, I will use shockwave rather than charge (or pull, if you don't like shockwave very much; it's just an example), even if charge is fully evolved and the other isn't. If I have Miranda with me and I see an YMIR, she will use overload first, then warp.

Maybe another class has this issue?

Take a look at the Soldier, (which granted has a crappy loadout when it comes to powers) would you ever find yourself in a situation where using A Rush was a bad idea?  Or how about the Vangard?  Provided you know what you're doing and aren't silly if you have a choice between using Charge or another ability (particularly if you're under fire) which would you choose?  Infiltrators can use Incinerate on any enemy that doesn't have a Shield or Barrier.  It works on Armour or Health extremely well, which is a good portion of the enemies that you face and they'd probably have Disruptor Ammo on permanently for dealing with the Shields to get to that Armour or Health.  What about Sentinels?  Is it ever a bad idea to activate Tech Armour?

Thats what I mean by spamming your most powerful ability.  Sure you can use other abilities if you want, but those abilities alone are almost never a bad idea so if in doubt, people use them.

[implodinggoat]

Definitely Global.

If you say individual I invite you to go back and play Mass Effect 1.

Every single encounter amounts to fire off all your powers to cripple as many enemies as possible then unload on them till your powers come back, then repeat.

The global cooldown forces you to think about what power you're going to use now and on who because you know that using said power means you won't be able to fire off another power.

There are definitely balancing issues when it comes to the global cooldown system; but if ME3 went back to individual cooldowns then it would strip away much of the tactical depth.

[Dave666]

implodinggoat wrote...

Definitely Global.

If you say individual I invite you to go back and play Mass Effect 1.

Every single encounter amounts to fire off all your powers to cripple as many enemies as possible then unload on them till your powers come back, then repeat.

The global cooldown forces you to think about what power you're going to use now and on who because you know that using said power means you won't be able to fire off another power.

There are definitely balancing issues when it comes to the global cooldown system; but if ME3 went back to individual cooldowns then it would strip away much of the tactical depth.

Erm...You do realize that you made a conscious choice to spam all of your abilities at once and leave yourself with nothing in reserve until they all came back...Right?

You could have used them tactically which you are claiming that you want.

Ever tried throwing up Barrier and running around shooting enemies and luring them all close together before using Singularity?  Works like a treat and you're still left with Lift and Throw.

Just because you didn't use those abilities tactically, does not in any way mean that Individual cooldowns are not tactical.

[implodinggoat]

Dave666 wrote...

Just because you didn't use those abilities tactically, does not in any way mean that Individual cooldowns are not tactical.

I could have used them in a more tactical manner yes;  but you're missing the point.

The Individual cooldown system doesn't reward me for using my powers tactically it rewards me for unloading them as rapidly as possible.

I was all over the ME1 strategies and tactics forum back when ME1 came out and all the discussion was about the best ways to constantly cycle through your powers as soon as their individual cooldowns ended so that you could deploy them as often as possible and keep your enemy in constant dissaray.

The system didn't encourage you to wait for the best tactical opportunity to deploy a power since doing so reduced the frequency with which you could deploy said power and thus your overall combat effectiveness.

The global cooldown forces you to consider what you're doing since deploying a power not only forces you to wait to use that power again; but also forces you to wait before you can delpoy any other.

Thus with a global cooldown system you always have to think about which power will serve you best at this particular moment while with an individual cooldown system you become preoccupied with firing off your powers as rapidly as possible.

[implodinggoat]

I think global cooldown is the best system.

The only alternative I might be open to would be similar to the system used in DA2 where in each power has its own individual cooldown as well as an amount that it drains from a constantly regenerating pool of stamina (global cooldown).

That system would allow you to fire off 2 powers in rapid sucession; but would still force you to consider what powers you're using since each use would drain your total stamina.   

Even there though I worry about players becoming preoccupied with the best way to use their powers as frequently as possible since that is effectively what the accepted strategy in DA2 has become (namely devise some combo of powers that maximizes damage and spam that combo as frequently as possible).

[Dave666]

implodinggoat wrote...

I think global cooldown is the best system.

The only alternative I might be open to would be similar to the system used in DA2 where in each power has its own individual cooldown as well as an amount that it drains from a constantly regenerating pool of stamina (global cooldown).

That system would allow you to fire off 2 powers in rapid sucession; but would still force you to consider what powers you're using since each use would drain your total stamina.   

Even there though I worry about players becoming preoccupied with the best way to use their powers as frequently as possible since that is effectively what the accepted strategy in DA2 has become (namely devise some combo of powers that maximizes damage and spam that combo as frequently as possible).

I've already suggested a hybrid system on page 3.

However, getting back to your argument that Global Cooldowns promote tactical use of abilities.

One might easilly argue that the tactical use of abilities in ME:2 had absolutely nothing to do with Global Cooldowns whatsoever.  It was the abilities themselves that promoted tactical use of abilities and all Global Cooldowns did was restrict the frequency with which you used them.  Warp-bombs, Pull -Throw combo's and Incinerating a frozen target spring to mind.

Imagine if ME:2 had used the Individual Cooldown system (or my proposed hybrid for that matter).  Would you still have spammed every ability at once?  Or would you have used your abilities to set up more warp-bombs and Pull-Throw combo's?  My money is on combo's, because they are more effective.

Its the powers themselves that determin how you use them.  Not the Global Cooldown.

[Dave666]

Luc0s wrote...

Global cooldowns but remove the cooldowns from the ammo powers.

I'm fine with the ME2 cooldown system, but I hate it that when I accidentally deactivate my ammo power that I have to wait a few seconds before I can reactivate it again. Or when I start a battle and I see that my ammo power isn't activated yet, which means I have to activate it and then wait before I can do anything else. Kinda frustrating.

So, global cooldown, but NO COOLDOWN for ammo powers!

Just out of curiosity.  Which class do you play most often?

[CroGamer002]

Mesina2 wrote...

Group cooldown

[Dexi]

Lol, Mesina, you just won't take it... Group cooldown is a bad idea. Period.

[CroGamer002]

^And nobody even attempted to explain what's wrong with it.

[julian08]

Global. With the individual cooldown, I was always spamming my powers like crazy and didn't care much if they were effective or not. With a global cooldown, you have to put a lot more thought into it, especially on the higher difficulties.

[JayhartRIC]

Mesina2 wrote...

^And nobody even attempted to explain what's wrong with it.

It's been discussed multiple times already.  It only helps one class which is basically the easiest class to play already.

[CroGamer002]

^Can be more detailed with then with just overpowers Sentinel?

[Guitar-Hero]

Individual cooldowns.

[The Twilight God]

m14567 wrote...

I AM KROGAAANNN wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

<snip>

Globally individual.

Use Tech Armor (12 sec cooldown): All skills go into cooldown
3 seconds later: Throw is usable.
6 seconds later: Warp is usable.
12 seconds later: Tech Armor is usable.

Use Warp (6 sec cooldown): All skills go into cooldown
3 seconds later: Throw is usable.
6 seconds later: Warp and Tech Armor Available are usable.

Use Throw (3 second cooldown): All skills go into cooldown.
3 seconds later: Everything is available.

In a nutshell, skills with longer cooldowns should not impose longer cooldowns on skills with shorter cooldowns.

I also think Stasis, Energy Drain, Reave and Shield/Armor buffs (not including Tech Armor) should be on a individual cooldown that is longer than most. Maybe it's just me, but they seem more like emergency skills. I only try to use them when in a bind. 

You shouldn't even have to activate ammo powers at all. When you click on a squadmate's weapon another icon should be next to the weapon toggle to toggle between their own ammo power and any squad ammo power currently in effect.

Give this man some appreciiation! He just solved the spamming problem with both cooldown configurations! 

Although this partcular cooldown feature isn't devoid of flaws, it is definitely something Bioware should consider testing and implementing. 

I think global is the best personally, and in the above example:

I use tech armor, 3 seconds later I use throw, apparently I can use tech armor again after 3 seconds.

No, you've misread. If you use Tech Armor you can use it again in 12 seconds. Throw becomes available 3 seconds after using Tech Armor. 3 seconds after that Warp is available and 6 seconds after that Tech Armor is available. A power still in cooldown does not come out of cooldown because you perform another power with a significantly shorter cooldown. There is no global cooldown reset.

Hence, it was described as "Globally Individual".

Modifié par The Twilight God, 24 juin 2011 - 12:33 .

[Dave666]

Luc0s wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Global cooldowns but remove the cooldowns from the ammo powers.

I'm fine with the ME2 cooldown system, but I hate it that when I accidentally deactivate my ammo power that I have to wait a few seconds before I can reactivate it again. Or when I start a battle and I see that my ammo power isn't activated yet, which means I have to activate it and then wait before I can do anything else. Kinda frustrating.

So, global cooldown, but NO COOLDOWN for ammo powers!

Just out of curiosity.  Which class do you play most often?

Vanguard is my favorite and most-played class, with Soldier and Infiltrator being my 2nd and 3rd most played class. Why?

Then you might as well say that you prefer Individual cooldowns.  If we take the ME:2 Vangard as an example.

If we remove Incendiary Ammo and Cryo Ammo from the cooldown pool then we're left with Charge, Pull and Shockwave.
On Hardcore or Insanity we remove Shockwave, because its reduced to a stagger effect and for 6 seconds cooldown its just not worth it.  A few people like Boz and Caj have found ways to fit it into their playstyles, but quite frankly its a waste of a cooldown.  Thats 6 seconds that you could have been doing something else, like charging to regen your barriers.

So now we're left with Charge and Pull.  Is it worth having a Global cooldown for two abilities?

[Kronner]

Dave666 wrote...
...
So now we're left with Charge and Pull.  Is it worth having a Global cooldown for two abilities?

Yeah, although you completly ignore bonus power (big mistake by the way), your point is somewhat valid..for Insanity and maybe Hardcore.

I am pretty sure that most players play on Normal or Veteran, and Global Cooldown does serve a purpose there.

I really hope devs simply build on ME2 and do not rebuild again. ME2's combat (especially Insanity and Hardcore with everpresent enemy protections) was excellent and really fun.

Modifié par Kronner, 24 juin 2011 - 01:29 .

[Dave666]

Kronner wrote...

Dave666 wrote...
...
So now we're left with Charge and Pull.  Is it worth having a Global cooldown for two abilities?

Yeah, although you completly ignore bonus power (big mistake by the way), your point is somewhat valid..for Insanity and maybe Hardcore.

I am pretty sure that most players play on Normal or Veteran, and Global Cooldown does serve a purpose there.

I really hope devs simply build on ME2 and do not rebuild again. ME2's combat (especially Insanity and Hardcore with everpresent enemy protections) was excellent and really fun.

Fair play.  I did forget about the bonus power.  But on a Vangard, if you knew that you could use a third 'Ammo Power' without suffering a cooldown, might you not be tempted?

I understand that you actually like the GCD.  The thing is, I absolutely hate it.

My favorite class is the Adept and unless I try very hard then I find that due to the GCD I'm using guns almost as much as abilities.  And the Adept gets bugger all to aid in gun use.  No Slowdown effect, no bonus damage.  Nothing.  Sure, enemies take extra damage whilst under the effects of Biotics, but so what?  A Soldier can get those same benefits by bringing along a squadmate and thats on top of the bonus to base weapon damage from their passive and A Rush.  Not that they need more damage the class is so powerful.

I don't play the Adept because I want to be using guns half or more of the time.  If I wanted to focus on gun use, I'd choose a Soldier or Infiltrator.  I play the Adept because I want to be power heavy, not gun heavy.

For me GCD gets in the way and IMO doesn't add any tactics.  Just restrictions.

For me tactics comes from using the right power (or combination of powers) at the right time, in the right way on the right enemy.  Not from 'oh I used X power, now I can't use any powers 'til the GCD is up.  Guess I'll shoot things.  Joy'.

Have a look on page 3 at the hybrid I've suggested. It'd need tweaking and the numbers are there more to get the general idea across but it's less restrictive and benefits all classes equally.