170 réponses à ce sujet

[Kekkis]

strive wrote...

Kekkis wrote...
Im actually more afraid, that Reapers could take it back and start building new babynator. If it´s destroyed, Reapers must build new one, if they want to make new Reaper. That could give us some more time to save humanity.

They can´t just kill us all, or send us to that collector base, if it is destroyed.

Making a Reaper isn't as simple as microwaving some hot pockets. The Collectors had been working for two years, and were only in larval form. If the Reapers are making more Reapers then we as a galaxy have lost. Since it takes time and millions and millions of individuals to make a Reaper.

Yep. But if that base was their old factory, that has been around millions of years and you destroy it they need new one, before they can start doing smoothies again. They had one Citadel, that worked everytime until now. Why they would have backup Reaperfactory Inc, if old one worked every time?

Modifié par Kekkis, 23 juin 2011 - 09:02 .

[jbblue05]

Roxy12 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Warkupo wrote...

Destroying the base may have been a Paragon option, but I totally did it for Renegade reasons. Watching TIM squirm was delicious.

Paragons are emotional-based

Renegades are logic based

nonsense

Paragons don't punch annoying reporters, shoot Conrad or push the Merc out of the window on the way to met Thane.

You're talking about being impatient or patient.

Paragon/Renegade system is centered around major choices

[goofyomnivore]

Kekkis wrote...
Yep. But if that base was their old factory, that has been around millions of years and you destroy it they need new one, before they can start doing smoothies again. They had one Citadel, that worked everytime until now. Why they would have backup Reaperfactory Inc, if old one worked every time?

I don't follow..

That wouldn't save us. It would just mean there is a non zero probablity of us becoming a "Reaper". They would have plenty of time to build a new one for the next wave of species.

I think after Mass Effect 2 it is pretty clear, that we've gone from potential Reaper, to annoying threat to their survival. They're going to crush us with their might if they can.

Modifié par strive, 23 juin 2011 - 09:09 .

[Kekkis]

strive wrote...

Kekkis wrote...
Yep. But if that base was their old factory, that has been around millions of years and you destroy it they need new one, before they can start doing smoothies again. They had one Citadel, that worked everytime until now. Why they would have backup Reaperfactory Inc, if old one worked every time?

I don't follow..

That wouldn't save us. It would just mean there is a non zero probablity of us becoming a "Reaper". They would have plenty of time to build a new one for the next wave of species.

I think after Mass Effect 2 it is pretty clear, that we've gone from potential Reaper, to annoying threat to their survival. They're going to crush us with their might if they can.

Reapers are just old stubborn machines. They think, that they are going to win and becouse humanity is good for creating new Reaper, they will do it. If Collector base is still there they will use it.

[Skirata129]

so? that still adds more possibilities for loss. if we lose with the base, we are either wiped out or become a reaper. if we lose without the base, we are most likely just wiped out. there's really no reason to destroy it aside from an adolescent urge to thumb your nose at the Illusive Man.

[Malanek]

I love Grunts response if you talk to him after keeping the base. Obviously been watching vids of the Turian Councilor.

[Kekkis]

Skirata129 wrote...

so? that still adds more possibilities for loss. if we lose with the base, we are either wiped out or become a reaper. if we lose without the base, we are most likely just wiped out. there's really no reason to destroy it aside from an adolescent urge to thumb your nose at the Illusive Man.

We have more time to fight back. Reapers need new factory. They used long way to get here after they lost Citadel. They want to do what they do. Protheans gave us time when they messed up Citadel. If Shepard destroys Reaper Factory, (S)he gives us time, becouse Reapers can´t just kill us all before they have new smoothie machine.

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote..
I also like to keep my options open with regard to Reaper technology. As a rule understanding it is preferable to destroying it, and once the Reapers are defeated, there will be countless lumps of the stuff floating around in the galaxy. So destroying it here is pointless anyway.

On a philosophical point, ME2 was all about creating your own future or accepting the future someone else decided for you. Mordin even talks about this.

[In Exile]

laecraft wrote...

Heh, never seen that line. Really, Legion? It's too late to achieve anything on "our own terms." Maybe if we had another fifty thousand years, then we could afford to hide behind the veil from the rest of the universe and build our own technology from scratch...only to emerge from our isolation to find the rest of the galaxy having progressed far beyond us, and find that we've been left in the dust while the others uncovered the secrets of the universe! But what do you expect from Legion, he's an isolationist.

Time's is up, team Milky Way. Leave the morals and philosophies aside. Take everything you can, put to use everything you can, and maybe your children will live to see the sunrise. Leave it to them to contemplate the subject of import, exchange of ideas, outsourcing, and isolationism. Our only goal is to survive!

We beat one reaper on our own terms. And the essence of the choice is that the goal isn't survival. It's to determine your own future - and with that, choosing death is a powerful choice in itself, because it comes on your own terms instead of someone elses. If, for example, humans use reaper technology to build their own reapers... then winning just means replacing one cosmic horror for another.

[Bad King]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lyvef1re wrote...

Short of Mordin, Legion was the most smart and most rationally minded character on the Normandy

No he isn't. If you followed his philosophy on the Suicide Mission you'd wind up with a lot of dead squadmates.

No Thanix cannon upgrade.

No shield upgrade.

No upgrades that aren't strictly of human design.

That's why Legion is a fool and Bioware is too if they try to enforce his view on the game-world since they've already shot themselves in the foot.


EDIT

Oh, and don't forget EDI: the ship's new artificial intelligence... who saved the mission in numerous occassions.

Also he recommends that you keep the collector base and then changes his mind later when you're on the ship.

[AlanC9]

Maybe we ought to fold this into the Battlestar Galactica thread. What's the quote.... "It's not enough to survive; you also have to be worth of survival."

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[Someone With Mass]

Bad King wrote...
Also he recommends that you keep the collector base and then changes his mind later when you're on the ship.

Or not. He just said that it was "an interesting choice".

[TexasNationalist]

jbblue05 wrote...

Warkupo wrote...

Destroying the base may have been a Paragon option, but I totally did it for Renegade reasons. Watching TIM squirm was delicious.

Paragons are emotional-based

Renegades are logic based

Sometimes the altruistic option is best for the group, sometimes the selfish option is best for the group too.  What is best for self-interest (however you define) is neither emotional- nor logic-based, but a weighing of both for the long-term.

I don't play through with total Paragon or total Renegade.  It ignores the subtleties of life or death decisions. 

[Bad King]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Also he recommends that you keep the collector base and then changes his mind later when you're on the ship.

Or not. He just said that it was "an interesting choice".

?

Legion (at the Collector Base): Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Then he U-turns and says that it was a bad idea; that by keeping the base, humans are advancing on the path that the reapers desire.

Modifié par Bad King, 23 juin 2011 - 10:15 .

[Son of Illusive Man]

jbblue05 wrote...

Warkupo wrote...

Destroying the base may have been a Paragon option, but I totally did it for Renegade reasons. Watching TIM squirm was delicious.

Paragons are emotional-based

Renegades are logic based

Not true.

Paragon and Renegade isn't really consistent.

Sometimes, it means Diplomatic/Agressive, Sometimes it means Idealistic/Ruthless, sometimes it means Nice/Being a dick for no apparent reason, sometimes long-term/immediate gratification

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Putting that much faith in a glorified blender is equally as stupid.

Now you are just being immature. The Collector base is not a "blender". It is a cache of advanced technology. Technology which may save our lives. The only way to find out is to examine it piece by piece.

Then again, Cerberus is your enemy in ME3

Whose to say they won't just use it against you, and have a self-destruct device inside it in case you come back for it.  They know how you work, and they're not exactly just going to leave it there for you to take.  They know that leaving troops there isn't enough either.

Cerberus is better than the Reapers, but if they're both your enemies, all you're doing is making Cerberus stronger, which will make you spend more time defeating them, stalling your attack on the Reapers.

[George-Kinsill]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Give it to Cerberus? Ofcourse they won't like it.

Better Cerberus gets it then nobody gets it. Lesser of evils and all that.

That's a way overly simplified generalization. Remember, if TIM get's the base, then ME: Retribution occurs, Grayson is indoctrinated wit the collector/Reaer tech, kills a buc of Turians, countless people on Omega, and gives valuable intelligence to Reapers on human biotics. Based on this alone, it justifies the Paragon position of destroying the reaper base. And to ounter the reapers, TIM in  way alluded to making more humans into smoothies, and who knows, even creating a human Reaper (which is belieable, considerig Cerberus is now with the Reapers). For those that are deontologists and even rule utilitarianists, destroying the ollector base is a moral imperative, and even act utilitarianists are taking a gamble, as Ceberus screws up a lot (Rachni, overlord, direlect reaper, ME: Retribution). Now, I don't believe heeping the base is al negative, as their may be certain benefits, but it will come at a heavy cost, ruthless acts, murder, and the resulting benefits are not in any way ertain (especially now that Cerberus is also working for the Reapers.)

[Kekkis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Putting that much faith in a glorified blender is equally as stupid.

Now you are just being immature. The Collector base is not a "blender". It is a cache of advanced technology. Technology which may save our lives. The only way to find out is to examine it piece by piece.

It is Reaper Technology and Reapers want us to use their technology. We must do stupid things to win. Like EDI said: She needs Joker to do stupid things to beat another EDI.

If we play chess with Reapers using old rules we will lose. If we use our tower using rules of queen we might get checkmate. Opponent then says that you can´t do that. Well we just did, so we can do that. We just changed the rules of the game.

Destroying that base is another "rules of this game has just changed" moment for Reapers.

Modifié par Kekkis, 23 juin 2011 - 10:49 .

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Also he recommends that you keep the collector base and then changes his mind later when you're on the ship.

Or not. He just said that it was "an interesting choice".

?

Legion (at the Collector Base): Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Then he U-turns and says that it was a bad idea; that by keeping the base, humans are advancing on the path that the reapers desire.

It really seems like BW had two different writers who had no contact with each other do those sections. I have no other explanation.

[DragonIroh001]

Seboist wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Also he recommends that you keep the collector base and then changes his mind later when you're on the ship.

Or not. He just said that it was "an interesting choice".

?

Legion (at the Collector Base): Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Then he U-turns and says that it was a bad idea; that by keeping the base, humans are advancing on the path that the reapers desire.

It really seems like BW had two different writers who had no contact with each other do those sections. I have no other explanation.

From an In-Story perspective, You could also say that it's Legion's own personal opinion on the matter, and that when he got back in contact with the rest of the Geth, and discussed it with them, they told him through Legion that it was a bad Idea.

[Kekkis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Meta-gaming.

What is meta-gaming? That someones logic don´t fit to yours? Ruining Reapers plans is completely logical for me. Giving that base to Cerberus and risking that Reapers might take it back in vain hope, that there might be something useful is stupid from my point of view.

[Someone With Mass]

Kekkis wrote...

What is meta-gaming? That someones logic don´t fit to yours? Ruining Reapers plans is completely logical for me. Giving that base to Cerberus and risking that Reapers might take it back in vain hope, that there might be something useful is stupid from my point of view.

You see, "metagaming" is the excuse people are coming up with when they can't leave a good counterargument, even if it has nothing to do with the topic at hand whatsoever.

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Which is a completely asinine quote to use when the survival of your entire species is at stake. Only a moron would even write something like that.

It's the difference between letting someone physically abuse you to live and standing up to them and dying. Basically, the American motto of "live free or die". There are things in life worth more than just living.