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[Someone With Mass]

It is human nature to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.

[aimlessgun]

In Exile wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Which is a completely asinine quote to use when the survival of your entire species is at stake. Only a moron would even write something like that.

It's the difference between letting someone physically abuse you to live and standing up to them and dying. Basically, the American motto of "live free or die". There are things in life worth more than just living.

So? I don't see any scenario where keeping a base is going to destroy all freedom in the galaxy after the Reapers are defeated. 

Also, when applied to a whole species, live free or die is a disgusting motto. To die is to give up, to remove all chance of anything getting better. Just because a society is not free at that moment does not mean it will never be free, does not mean things will never improve. It horrifies me to think someone might choose to **** out and say "nah, let's just die instead of trying to stay alive and keep open the chance of a better tomorrow."

[xSTONEYx187x]

My "canon" Shep kept the base, even though he's not a big fan of Cerberus. And even though we know they are an enemy in ME 3, I'll still keep it.

Makes role playing a lot more interesting.

[tobynator89]

We do not have sufficient info to make any assumptions about this yet.

[archurban]

do you argue with it? we all know that Cerberus will turn to great enemy in ME 3. so don't keep it. that's so simple. TIM will kill you anyway.

[sevach]

Son of Illusive Man wrote...


Then again, Cerberus is your enemy in ME3

Whose to say they won't just use it against you, and have a self-destruct device inside it in case you come back for it.  They know how you work, and they're not exactly just going to leave it there for you to take.  They know that leaving troops there isn't enough either.

Cerberus is better than the Reapers, but if they're both your enemies, all you're doing is making Cerberus stronger, which will make you spend more time defeating them, stalling your attack on the Reapers.

Wait for it, i'm betting that one of the missions in the game is to confront Cerberus/TIM, Cerberus resources will be controlled by Shepard/Miranda before the endgame... i think. 

[Keedmo]

if the reapers wanted us to use the collector base to develop along the paths reapers desire then why did we need to steal a reaper IFF to get to that base. Wouldn't the base be accessible like the relays or the Citadel?

[Reever]

Someone With Mass wrote...

If I had the option to give the
base to anyone else but Cerberus, I would've done it. Now all I can do
is hope that there's something that can be salvaged.

 
True dat! But who do you think will be the ones to salvage what can be found?! Yes, Cerberus! Would be plausible way for them to aquire Reaper tech no matter the state of the base (if kept - super!, if not: tech salvaged....).

Saphra Deden wrote...

If we have to do things we later regret in order to survive, that's fine. It's terrible price, but it is a price we can pay. Once the danger is passed we can redeem ourselves. If however we stay by our morals and die out completely then our morals die with us. There will be no redemption, no regret. We'll be dead. Forever. In a short time we'll be forgotten.

Yeah, because we and our morals set the standard in the universe...there was life before us, there will be after us. We are no Gods. So yeah, you can even use the BG quote when your whole species goes down. Fighting for survival isn´t an excuse for everything - and in an universe where other life is possible (and no, don´t mean it in Reaper form =D) even more so!
Of course, this was just a retort to your pragmatic view point! Only because the military does what needs to be done, doesn´t mean the whole species is "tainted"... So yeah.
You guys are too serious about this anyway =D

And to be on topic: How the hell do you come from what Legion say to your conclusion? They only say you chose to go your own path (like the true Geth did as well!). So how did you get to your train of thought?
They also said we "can achieve it on our own terms". Does that mean we can develop the same technologies? [ till they come of course, not in the long run...).
(If I missed something excuse me, it´s late )

[xassantex]

keeping it is a renegade choice , destroying it is paragon .
is that a misleading choice ?

[In Exile]

aimlessgun wrote...

So? I don't see any scenario where keeping a base is going to destroy all freedom in the galaxy after the Reapers are defeated.

Whoever owns the base decides to make another (or multiple reapers) or uses the reaper technology to create an oppresive dictatorship.

Also, when applied to a whole species, live free or die is a disgusting motto. To die is to give up, to remove all chance of anything getting better. Just because a society is not free at that moment does not mean it will never be free, does not mean things will never improve. It horrifies me to think someone might choose to **** out and say "nah, let's just die instead of trying to stay alive and keep open the chance of a better tomorrow."

Well, no. The whole point is not to give up, and the idea is that giving up your life in the hope of creating a free world is justified. Destroying the base isn't giving up; it's choosing to win or lose on your own terms.

[goofyomnivore]

@Exile

Everyone is going to have tons and tons and tons of Reaper tech if we survive. And there is no way TIM could make a Reaper in any reasonable amount of time. Let alone an army of them. Cerberus isn't the USSR of space. They are one of the weaker players on the galactic scale.

edit; Saphra beat me to it.

Modifié par strive, 24 juin 2011 - 01:16 .

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

In Exile wrote...


Whoever owns the base decides to make another (or multiple reapers) or uses the reaper technology to create an oppresive dictatorship.

That's rediculous. It would require Cerberus abducting millions of people.

It is also kind of pointless seeing as after the war everyone will have their hands on Reaper tech.

Indeed, that's why TIM says the CB is vital against the "Reapers and beyond". The man is brilliant.

[nitrog100]

I think Legion is just saying that even though you would be doing so on your terms, you didn't take the Reaper technology (like the Heretic Geth want). It's an integrity thing that Shepard and the "True" Geth have in common.

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...
That's rediculous. It would require Cerberus abducting millions of people.

Right. So Cerberus scales up their evil experiments from hundreds or thousands to millions.

It is also kind of pointless seeing as after the war everyone will have their hands on Reaper tech.

We don't know that. It's as much speculation as the reaper base itself providing useful tech.

[In Exile]

strive wrote...
Everyone is going to have tons and tons and tons of Reaper tech if we survive.

And we can all get toghether and melt it in a pot.

And there is no way TIM could make a Reaper in any reasonable amount of time. Let alone an army of them. Cerberus isn't the USSR of space. They are one of the weaker players on the galactic scale.

He could just clone people and throw them in the pot.

[goofyomnivore]

The Reapers are > or = to anything found on that base, since well they built it. The debris from countless Reapers>Collector Base. The Collector Base just helps close the technology gap for the war.

Cloning? A big factor in making a Reaper is genetic diversity. If they didn't need that I'm sure the Reapers would of just grabbed a dozen humans and cloned them.

Making a Reaper would be the least of my concerns. It isn't efficient or plausible. If anything, I'd be worried about TIM harnessing the shields/weapons from the base, and outfitting mercs with them to seize "valuable finds" on the post war salvaging, so human's can get a monopoly -- before other species can reverse engineer the technology. I personally don't think they could even pull that off. Cerberus is very small compared to the other empires in the galaxy.

Modifié par strive, 24 juin 2011 - 02:38 .

[Skirata129]

xassantex wrote...

keeping it is a renegade choice , destroying it is paragon .
is that a misleading choice ?

most choices in this game are, as it all depends on the intention of the person choosing.

I kept the genophage cure as a bargaining chip, even though I believe it is correct, and rewrote the geth to use as frontline soldiers. Renegade motivations that apparently are labelled as paragon.

[In Exile]

strive wrote...

The Reapers are > or = to anything found on that base, since well they built it. The debris from countless Reapers>Collector Base. The Collector Base just helps close the technology gap for the war.

Then we already have superior technology from the shreds of Sovereign. Why does the base have any value? How do you know it closes the gap? What technology does the base provide?

Cloning? A big factor in making a Reaper is genetic diversity. If they didn't need that I'm sure the Reapers would of just grabbed a dozen humans and cloned them.

Or maybe they just do it for the lulz instead of cloning. Cerberus can certainly try, and the galaxy has to suffer for it.

Making a Reaper would be the least of my concerns. It isn't efficient or plausible. If anything, I'd be worried about TIM harnessing the shields/weapons from the base, and outfitting mercs with them to seize "valuable finds" on the post war salvaging, so human's can get a monopoly -- before other species can reverse engineer the technology. I personally don't think they could even pull that off. Cerberus is very small compared to the other empires in the galaxy.

What weapons? What shields? The base had neither. It made husks, and it made reapers. It housed the Collectors, but we have no evidence as to whether or not the actual stockpiles of weapons/armour were on the base or on the collector ship.

If Cerberus can't actually pull anything off the base in 2yrs, then it makes the base entirely useless.

[goofyomnivore]

Then we already have superior technology from the shreds of Sovereign. Why does the base have any value? How do you know it closes the gap? What technology does the base provide?

Anderson/Codex said themselves most of Sovereign wasn't salvaged, it was either lost or taken by Mercs/private investors. An incomplete sample and look at the major technology gains. Now imagine a Reaper graveyard where everyone has dozens of Reapers they can analyze, instead of fighting over scraps of one.

Or maybe they just do it for the lulz instead of cloning. Cerberus can certainly try, and the galaxy has to suffer for it.

"for the lulz" Great reasoning. They can try what? Go against the only thing we know for sure about a Reapers biology? It isn't like making a hot pocket. They would have to learn each step of the process, and the devote resources to mass cloning which would take years its self. Then the whole of going through it mistake free(unlikely) it being their first time with a complete alien concept. It isn't realistic or efficient at all to think Cerberus can have a Reaper any time soon. Let alone an army of them.

What weapons? What shields? The base had neither. It made husks, and it made reapers. It housed the Collectors, but we have no evidence as to whether or not the actual stockpiles of weapons/armour were on the base or on the collector ship.

If Cerberus can't actually pull anything off the base in 2yrs, then it makes the base entirely useless.

I said the base had no weapon, shields, or sensors. But then I also noted the interior being of value. The place where the Collectors store their weapons, shields, etc. I don't understand what proof you need. It is their base do you think they store their technology somewhere else? Not to mention it is a Reaper factory. If you're making super sentient star ships in a base, I imagine you got parts lying around for it inside, call me crazy.

From the Codex take the Collector Particle Beam; "If given more samples -- could rapidly be reversed engineered for major technological upgrades". I imagine the base has stockpiles of them, since it is a pretty common weapon the Collectors use, and it being their base in all -- just a hunch.

Modifié par strive, 24 juin 2011 - 01:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Relying on "hope" to save you from annihilation is folly.

Putting that much faith in a glorified blender is equally as stupid.

Sure. Now putting a little bit of faith in research labs, weapon production facilities, genetics research, biotic/cybernetic maintanence infrastructure... that's a fair deal better.

[DarkSeraphym]

In Exile wrote...


Then we already have superior technology from the shreds of Sovereign. Why does the base have any  value? How do you know it closes the gap? What technology does the base provide?

Well, we really don't know that the Collector Base would close any gap at all. However, given the damage that we saw from Sovereign at the Battle of the Citadel, I think we havejust barely touched upon the technology that the Reapers have at their disposal. Really, it seems like your argument is getting analogous to one in which Native Americans, a tribe from the 1700s, would attack a modern military transport vehicle and discover firearms, then argue not to loot a modern United States military depot simply because they have already discovered standard firearms. What if that depot can also offer things like RPGs, tanks, and body armor?

It's a ridiculous notion of course, but I think it really gets down to the issue at hand. When comparing the technology, humanity and the other races are fighting against the Reapers with the technological equivalent of bows and arrows versus modern warfare equipment. Sure, we might be able to take down a soldier or two when they are on their own, but only if we can amass such a large group to fight back. However the moment those soldiers are all in massive numbers, we wouldn't stand a chance. I do not think we should stop at "firearms" so to speak.

What weapons? What shields? The base had neither. It made husks, and it made reapers. It housed the Collectors, but we have no evidence as to whether or not the actual stockpiles of weapons/armour were on the base or on the collector ship.

Well, I did see the Collectors carrying weapons and I am going to assume that they thought it was logical to store a certain amount of those weapons within the Collector Base seeing as how they are shooting at Shepard with them.

Aside from that, unlike the poster you were responding too, I am more interested in that dead Reaper larva and the machines that went into building it. Often times, understanding how a certain weapon is produced and the mechanics of that weapon is how people are able to build countermeasures for whatever it is capable of. The value in that base isn't so much in the weapons it could produce, but in the information that could be gathered from examining how Reapers are made. Like I said, understanding how something is produced can often times lead into understanding how it functions and developing a weapon to use against it.

If Cerberus can't actually pull anything off the base in 2yrs, then it makes the base entirely useless.

Well, only if your only interest was in the Collector Base stopping the Reapers. I will not lie, I personally have an ulterior motive in using the Collector Base to keep humanity dominant over the other races but that does not necessarily appear to be Shepard's incentive for doing so based upon what he/she says when agreeing with the Illusive Man. Likewise, I don't think that was my initial motivation for keeping it since I do not recall the Illusive Man discussing the potential of using it against the other races until Shepard spoke with him after the mission was complete.

Regardless, I also look at it from the philosophy of "better safe than sorry." I'd rather leave the Collector Base and hope that it has useful technology, which if it doesn't why argue about Cerberus having it anyway, as it can be destroyed if it becomes a problem in the future than simply destroy it and then discover that there were secrets in that thing later that I can never recover.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 24 juin 2011 - 02:47 .

[Ieldra]

I don't see why people can't see that the base can't be but valuable:

(1) It is an enemy HQ. Ask any military strategist about the value of that. I bet the answer is something along the lines of: "If you capture one and blow it up without demonstrating an overarching necessity, you'll end up court-martialed for treason." You might as well be an enemy agent for all you have achieved.

(2) It's a Reaper factory. Which means, if the Reapers have any weaknesses we can exploit in the war, this is THE place to find out about it. After the derelict Reaper is gone, there is no other place with information quite as valuable.

The main value of the base does not lie in the resources, like weapons etc.. It lies in information. Information is crucial in any war.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 02:32 .

[goofyomnivore]

The information is the best part I agree, and you find the information in the technology and techniques used in the Collector Base. But Cerberus is baaaaaaaaaaaad. Worse than Harbinger ever thought of being right..