170 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

Mesina, is there no drawback to keeping the collector base? in your opinion of course...

[BloodyTalon]

I don't think keeping the collectors base will be all that predictable in outcome, given the illusive man is not trust worthy and will always put humans first, a-lot of the solution may also be if you kept the council alive or not also.

Think given things if the council is alive the illusive man may not want the tech from that base falling into alien hands and may restrict your access to what they uncovered or something, see not that predictable really it probbly will depend alot on other choices you made.

Sorry for any typos or errors.

[Warkupo]

jbblue05 wrote...

Warkupo wrote...

Destroying the base may have been a Paragon option, but I totally did it for Renegade reasons. Watching TIM squirm was delicious.

Paragons are emotional-based

Renegades are logic based

Yeah, flipping out and killing people because they pissed you off is very logical, isn't it Renegade? 

[Warkupo]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kekkis wrote...

What is meta-gaming? That someones logic don´t fit to yours? Ruining Reapers plans is completely logical for me. Giving that base to Cerberus and risking that Reapers might take it back in vain hope, that there might be something useful is stupid from my point of view.

You see, "metagaming" is the excuse people are coming up with when they can't leave a good counterargument, even if it has nothing to do with the topic at hand whatsoever.

No, meta-gaming is when you pick an option based on it's rewards, which your character should have no real knowledge of. It's the opposite of role playing. If you are given a Paragon choice that offers 3000 credits, and a renegade choice that offers 3001 credits, you'd pick the renegade choice simply because it offers more credits. Not because you agree or disagree with the decisions presented to you, but because you know which offers the statistically 'best' reward.

I'm not sure if it applies to the Collector Base decisions, however, as wanting to keep the base because you think it might benefit you runs in parallel with what Shepard should be thinking from a role-playing perspective anyway.

[DarkSeraphym]

Warkupo wrote...

No, meta-gaming is when you pick an option based on it's rewards, which your character should have no real knowledge of. It's the opposite of role playing. If you are given a Paragon choice that offers 3000 credits, and a renegade choice that offers 3001 credits, you'd pick the renegade choice simply because it offers more credits. Not because you agree or disagree with the decisions presented to you, but because you know which offers the statistically 'best' reward.

I'm not sure if it applies to the Collector Base decisions, however, as wanting to keep the base because you think it might benefit you runs in parallel with what Shepard should be thinking from a role-playing perspective anyway.

The reason why metagaming comes up a lot in this topic is because three of the most common arguments for not keeping the base anymore is A). Cerberus is going to be your enemy in Mass Effect 3, . it is likely we will not be getting their help as such, and C.) It's looking like there are no rewards for choosing to keep the Collector Base. Instead, there appears to be more risks. All three of these arguments are indeed metagaming.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 24 juin 2011 - 04:05 .

[BloodyTalon]

Keeping the collectors base is like the choice to save thhe council or not, I can see benefits to both choices regardless

If you ;et the council die the tarians break from the treaty and started building more dreadnoughts according to a report, it may be hard to get them to agree to help in three though(if I am recalling one of the news reports right)

And if you let the council live, they start making admends for what happen in the first cvontact war according to another news report perhaps making them easier to recuirt and coming to humanities aid more quickly.

Some f the big choices like that can have many outcomes really, I am surre the base will be no different.


Sorry for any typos or errors again

[Omega Torsk]

Non-Metagaming Reasons for Destroying the Base

1. I'll essentially be giving it to Cerberus. Cerberus. I don't trust the Illusive Man as far as I can throw him. His motives are never truly clear and the last thing I would want to do is give a base chock-full of Reaper tech to an organization that is borderline terrorist. I don't care if they do whatever it takes to get the job done; there are certain lines that should never be crossed that Ceberus enjoys skipping over on a daily basis. So yeah, it's not that I don't see the value of the collector base; I just don't trust Cerberus with it. Like what Shepard says, TIM will probably want to build his own Reaper, next.

2. It will most likely blow up in their face. They can try to use it with the best of intentions, but it is essentially a death snare. It's Reaper tech not meant to be discovered by other races. Like with the inactive Reaper, they will most likely become indoctrinated by it.

3. (Idealistic reason) Hundreds of thousands of humans lost their lives at that base, melted into Reaper goo. It became their tomb. Like what Miranda said, using the base would seem like a betrayal.

4. EDI extracted a lot of data from the Collector base (if not all) before it was destroyed (information that includes Harbinger). So, destroying it is not a total loss.

Metagaming Reasons for Destroying the Base

1. Cerberus is going to betray you, anyway. So there is no reward for preserving the base. Actually, destroying the base may actually work to your advantage.

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 24 juin 2011 - 06:48 .

[Jackfin]

Casey Hudson confirmed that cerberus will work for reapers.
Still i'm goin to leave collector base to illusive man in my other save... maybe.

[sorentoft]

Given that 4/5 Cerberus projects fail miserably and become a potent threat to galactic security in the process it would of course be preferable to just blow the base up instead of having to come back again (80% risk) and clean up in the midst of fighting the reapers.

[Medhia Nox]

I think keeping the Collector Base makes sense.

I think destroying the Collector Base makes sense.

And I know that neither of them will be punished.

[RyuujinZERO]

Omega Torsk wrote...

Non-Metagaming Reasons for Destroying the Base

[stuff]

A lot of that is rather idealistic. Remember, and, this is a biggy I think BIOWARE ITSELF forgets:

You are facing a seemingly unstoppable force that has literally destroyed all life in the universe several HUNDRED times over; races powerful enough to build cannons that can crater a planet and kill a reaper, races likely with tech scarely imaginable to us. Countless races each individual, unique and with their own insights - ALL THEM FAILED, alll of them - try and put that into perspective, thousands of races fought the reapers, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them, lost the fight

At this point, no cost should be too high; giving your "political enemies" tech, using tech that has cost lives, sacrificijng entire star systems full of innocents to delay the enemy by a few months, using tech you barely udnerstand as a weapon - all of this is nothing compared to what is at stake, failiure means death, not just for you and your politicial faction (ie "the alliance"), but all life in the universe, if that means giving a group like cerberus the keys to the greatest weapon ever conceieved because only they are willing to use it, so be it. The cost of failiure is too high to not take ever risk nessecary even if it throws the galactic politicial landscape into upheaval for a century or two after, at least anyone's left alive to have a politicial upheaval.

To assume you'll win just with grit, determination and sticking to what your personal code of honour and allegiances is to show exreme hubris.

Hence my "paragon shep" gave cerberus the keys to the collector base, left the namby-pamby-heel-dragging old council to die in favour of alliance military prescence and would have blown up the relay even if it wasn't railroaded. As shep says if you save the base "A threat this big, rules go out the window. If the base can help us stop the reapers we have to use it"



Cerberus's betrayal doesn't preclude keeping the collector base either, it may be possible to take it back from cerberus and utilise it yourself later on. Destroying it, forever rules out that possibility.

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Medhia Nox]

You are facing a stoppable force that claims to have destroyed all space faring life in the universe several hundred times.

A race that has to use a trap (the Citadel and Mass Relay tech) and a sneak attack (the Relays) and a huge mechanical army (the Geth) to LOSE its initial attack.

Those races which were beaten - never, presumably - survived the initial sneak attack. They never recovered from it - and therefore the Reapers won.

The Reapers have already been beaten at the end of ME 1.

That doesn't mean the battle won't be great and terrible - but this unstoppable force is just mythology created by the fan base.

Even Legion thinks Shepard's foolish - they are, after all, just "Old Machines".

[unfringed]

My renegade didn't give it to TIM. Not going to chance the indoctrination of Cerberus. We don't need to strengthen the enemy, and it's almost certain the science teams investigating it would become indoctrinated and in turn tear Cerebrus apart from the inside.

Too big a gamble, can't predict the outcome.

Modifié par unfringed, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:08 .

[RyuujinZERO]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Reapers have already been beaten at the end of ME 1.

That doesn't mean the battle won't be great and terrible - but this unstoppable force is just mythology created by the fan base.

The protheans agree that while reapers are powerful, they're not indestructable which is why Sovereign had no dared attack previously.

Indeed, when the attack finally comes, it's only because sovereign knows Saren is aboard the citadel and has control of it's defences, and only loses because Shepard has chased Saren to the ends of the galaxy and has the same knowledge.

But even in the course of that attack Sovereign personally takes out 2 or 3 Turian dreadnaughts (carriers to be precise - even going so far as to RAM one), and over half a dozen Alliance cruisers, and ultimately seems to give up, when it realises that saren has failed, his husk lost, it is surrounded with no escape and no way to interact with the citadel systems. There's only around 60 dreadnaughts between all the council races, and 1 reaper took out 3 of them by itself. We know of around 250 reapers, but theres probably far, FAR more. If each reaper punches like sovereign, the council races will run out of ships before any real impact is made even if they take on the reapers many Vs one 

[Medhia Nox]

@RyuujinZERO - I'm not saying battling the Reapers is going to be simple. But - we've now seen how they "actually" harvest - when they didn't have Collectors to paralyze colonies for them.

Again - it was a sneak attack. While Sovereign could have easily been considered a flagship - I doubt the Turian brass would have commanded all attention upon it. After all - there were hundreds? of Geth ships launching salvos of "rockets" at the Turians, the Destiny Ascension, and the Citadel.

I am reminded of Pearl Harbor.

And yes - Sovereign does ram a cruiser - but I truly believe that "plot awesome" "plot armor" and "plot badassery" are largely ignored - to the detriment of many arguments.

[DarthSliver]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Reapers have already been beaten at the end of ME 1.

That doesn't mean the battle won't be great and terrible - but this unstoppable force is just mythology created by the fan base.

The protheans agree that while reapers are powerful, they're not indestructable which is why Sovereign had no dared attack previously.

Indeed, when the attack finally comes, it's only because sovereign knows Saren is aboard the citadel and has control of it's defences, and only loses because Shepard has chased Saren to the ends of the galaxy and has the same knowledge.

But even in the course of that attack Sovereign personally takes out 2 or 3 Turian dreadnaughts (carriers to be precise - even going so far as to RAM one), and over half a dozen Alliance cruisers, and ultimately seems to give up, when it realises that saren has failed, his husk lost, it is surrounded with no escape and no way to interact with the citadel systems. There's only around 60 dreadnaughts between all the council races, and 1 reaper took out 3 of them by itself. We know of around 250 reapers, but theres probably far, FAR more. If each reaper punches like sovereign, the council races will run out of ships before any real impact is made even if they take on the reapers many Vs one 

Well its good than that not all of them are the size of Sovereign.

[111987]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Reapers have already been beaten at the end of ME 1.

That doesn't mean the battle won't be great and terrible - but this unstoppable force is just mythology created by the fan base.

The protheans agree that while reapers are powerful, they're not indestructable which is why Sovereign had no dared attack previously.

Indeed, when the attack finally comes, it's only because sovereign knows Saren is aboard the citadel and has control of it's defences, and only loses because Shepard has chased Saren to the ends of the galaxy and has the same knowledge.

But even in the course of that attack Sovereign personally takes out 2 or 3 Turian dreadnaughts (carriers to be precise - even going so far as to RAM one), and over half a dozen Alliance cruisers, and ultimately seems to give up, when it realises that saren has failed, his husk lost, it is surrounded with no escape and no way to interact with the citadel systems. There's only around 60 dreadnaughts between all the council races, and 1 reaper took out 3 of them by itself. We know of around 250 reapers, but theres probably far, FAR more. If each reaper punches like sovereign, the council races will run out of ships before any real impact is made even if they take on the reapers many Vs one 

Actually, those were only cruisers that Sovereign destroyed. Sovereign did it effortlessly, which is impressive, but it didn't actually take out a dreadnaught,

However the Codex say's a Reaper's spinal-mounted main gun could one-shot a dreadnaught, and if a main cannon can fire every what, five seconds? EDI also says a Reaper's shields are impervious to dreadnaught fire (although they can be whittled down, of course). Things don't look so good for the galaxy at this point...

[Solmanian]

It was the pinnacle decision in the game, like saving the council or not. I'm sure it will have serious impact in ME3. But considering the extremly negative reaction of the crew, it was probably the "wrong" decision (like in the sense of letting the council die was "wrong", resulting in the human being viewed by the other races as powermongers, and with general dislike). I doubt it's gonna be game-breaking doom and gloom if you want full renegade, but definintely headed for harder times.
The question is how much the 9 different endings in ME3 are effected by past choices, and if certain choices automatically lock you out of certain endings.

[JamieCOTC]

Reading ME: Retribution

Cerberus gets Collector data regardless if Shepard blew up the base or not. (That's what s/he gets for blowing the base and not cleaning up the mess afterwards.) I also seem to recall a dev stating that Cerberus will be stronger if Shep gave them the base, but not overly. Using ME2 as a yardstick, my guess is that saving or destroying the Collector base will change nothing but a few dialogue options.

[Ieldra]

Jackfin wrote...
Casey Hudson confirmed that cerberus will work for reapers.

He did? That makes no sense. Do you have a source?

[Seboist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jackfin wrote...
Casey Hudson confirmed that cerberus will work for reapers.

He did? That makes no sense. Do you have a source?

3:00-3:10 ->

[Zakatak757]

That would be an interesting twist, and a deserved punch in the face for us idealistic Paragons.

The obvious thing to think is "the Illusive Man is a bad person hungry for power who will use it against us!" but seeing him use the Collector Base good would be a surprise.

[Drone223]

imo Keeping the base is just as risky as destroying, Are Ceberus going to hand you what they find on a silver platter (due to their histroy of back stabbing) and also their R&D projects don't exactly according to plan (save Shepard, EDI/Normandy) as we see in Overlord the VI hybrid controlls the geth but Ceberus could not control the VI hybrid and it went running riot, But then again your lossing all that technology that may be of use against the reapers

[DarkSeraphym]

Seboist wrote...

3:00-3:10 ->

If I am not mistaken, didn't Casey Hudson later retract that claim on twitter sometime in June?

[BlueMagitek]

The Reapers are a much, much larger threat than Cerberus.

Legion's thoughts on the matter are flawed. While he is correct that the Reapers have left their own technology in order to guide us along their lines, he is incorrect in assuming that the base (which one can only access with a Reaper IFF going through an obviously different Relay) is a part of that plan. While it is going along the Reaper's technological path, this advancement was not their influence.

Keeping the base is the way to go; if nothing else you gain additional knowledge on Reapers and whatever weapons/information that the Collectors were holding onto.