260 réponses à ce sujet

[ItsTheTruth]

Angelsdawn wrote...

So let me get this straight. People actually consider DA2 to be a good game?

It is a Borat joke: people consider DA2 to be a good game... NOT!

[Pasquale1234]

Theagg wrote...

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Theagg wrote...

Ahh yes, random combat, I remember that well from Origins. How often our progress was rudely interrupted by crossed swords on the map. Often occuring in places that looked remarkably similar to previous random tussle locations.

I don't think anyone claiming that DA2 is even in the same league as DA:O would want to bring up the topics of random combat or reused locations. DA:O combat scenes actually worked very well because each felt relatively consequential and unique. Even some of those "crossed swords" were actually triggered by quests or companion storyline (like Leliana or Wynne). The only really random and repetitive combat was on the Denerim map...

Or all of DA2.

Oh and I would argue, if you add up all the various primary 'exterior' areas in Kirkwall (Hightown, Lowtown, Darktown etc), the number of streets, alleys and corridors they contain, they add up to more variety and more mileage than all of Denerim, Orzammar and Redcliffe combined. (Denerim for example was pretty much just a single open courtyard/market surrounded by scenic buildings, Orzammar just an entrance hall and three fancy 'corridors', the Commons, Diamond Quarter and Dust Town etc )

I'm guessing it's been awhile since you've been to Denerim.  The area you describe is the Market District.  There is also the Pearl, several Back Alleys, the Elven Alienage, the Arl's Estate, Eamon's Estate, the Palace, Fort Drakon - all in Denerim.
+ Korcari Wilds
+ Ostagar
+ Lothering
+ Lake Calenhad & The Mage Tower
+ Brecillan Forest & Ruins
+ Several Thaigs in the Deep Roads
+ Haven & Frostback Mountains Ruins (Urn Quest)
+ some other areas added via DLC
+ some other quest specific map locations
... and each city typically had at least one pub, merchant, and chantry.  Lots of additional buildings you could enter and explore as you traveled throughout Ferelden.

HIghtown has the Viscount's Keep, Chantry, Blooming Rose, Hawke's Estate, Fenris' Mansion, and some street vendors.
Lowtown has the Hanged Man, Merrill's House, Gamlen's House, and some street vendors.
Lowtown Docks has - streets.  Harbormaster's Office, Qunari for awhile, and a disused passage.  Everything else is quest dependent.
The Gallows has Templar's Hall and street vendors.
Darktown has street people, thugs, and entrances to sewers.

Overall - Kirkwall has one government building, one pub, one chantry, one brothel, companion's homes, and some street vendors.  Except for the companion's homes, Denerim alone has all of that (the other Ferelden cities have most of them, too).  Kirkwall also has a mage circle/templar's quarters; Ferelden's version is at Lake Calenhad.

I really do believe there is a great deal more real estate to explore in DAO than DA2.  Many locations in Ferelden are visited only once - and in Kirkwall, you are visiting the same places multiple times in each act.  The Return to Ostagar DLC was really interesting to see, because it looked so very different with all of the tents gone and everything covered with snow.  It would have been really nice to see some obvious changes to Kirkwall and its environs during the 7 years we spend traipsing about the place.

Theagg wrote...
Lets see, you decide wether or not Bartrand dies. You decide wether or not the Dalish live, (as major a decision as any in Origions) You decide the fate of Feynriel. You decide wether or not Isabela remains free, or wether she returns for Act 3. You decide wether the Arishok dies, or he takes what he wants and leaves. You decide the fate of Fenris  You decide the ultimate fate of Anders. Carver or Bethany can live or die in the Deep Roads. And so on. All of those choices can have ramifications further down the line.

All true - although the fate of the Dalish is not presented as any sort of conscious decision or choice offered to you.  Their fate is determined by whether you choose a particular line of dialogue accepting responsibility for Merrill's actions.  Without metagaming, you would never know that you could have prevented their slaughter.  And whether Isabela returns is also not an intentional choice you make; it is determined by your relationship with her.

I think it's easy to overlook some of the choices we were given in DA2 for a couple of reasons:
1) The scope.  You have presented a list of outcomes that impact individuals in DA2, but the Warden was making decisions that impacted entire cultures, cities, and a nation.
2) The presentation.  The Warden had specific options from which to choose, i.e., Mages vs Templars, Isolde vs Connor vs Mage Assistance, Harrowmont vs Bhelan, Elves vs Werewolves, Urn vs Cult - and could choose from those options to realize a specific outcome.  Many of the things Hawke influenced were not necessarily intentional; Hawke was reacting to dialogue and events and then others reacted accordingly.

[Zanallen]

Yes, yes. Dragon Age 2 has a lot of reused maps. If I recall correctly, it has 28 unique maps, not counting day night cycles or the same map with altered item locations.

[Theagg]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I'm guessing it's been awhile since you've been to Denerim.  The area you describe is the Market District.  There is also the Pearl, several Back Alleys, the Elven Alienage, the Arl's Estate, Eamon's Estate, the Palace, Fort Drakon - all in Denerim.
+ Korcari Wilds
+ Ostagar
+ Lothering
+ Lake Calenhad & The Mage Tower
+ Brecillan Forest & Ruins
+ Several Thaigs in the Deep Roads
+ Haven & Frostback Mountains Ruins (Urn Quest)
+ some other areas added via DLC
+ some other quest specific map locations
... and each city typically had at least one pub, merchant, and chantry.  Lots of additional buildings you could enter and explore as you traveled throughout Ferelden.

It's been about 2 days since I was last in Denerim, Sunday Afternoon I recall. I'm now in the Ruins in the Brecillan forest.

I know what I was referring to though perhaps I wasn't clear enough, hence your post. To reiterate I wasn't comparing the entirety of the locations in DA2 to the larger number of locations that make up the whole of Origins. So your long list above wasn't really neccessary since that had nothing to do with my argument.

I was comparing actual  'exterior' locations and variability within Kirkwalls streets, to the 'exterior' street locations of Denerim, Orzammar and Redcliffe combined. That includes the number of alleys, turns, length of streets you can regularly walk, that are not quest dependent  and the square footage of buildings represented lining those streets in each. Kirwall beats or equals those three put together

I was not including the interior of buildings (and quests tied to those interiors) within those towns and cities as part of the comparison. Where those interiors probably did amount to much more than Kirkwalls interiors.

But nonetheless, since you mentioned a few other (mostly interior) locations in Denerim.

The Pearl = The Blooming Rose
Gnawed Noble = Hanged Man.
Back Alleys = Dirty Back Alley
The Arl's Estate = The Viscounts Keep probably
The Alienage = The Alienage

And so on.. but wether or not the square footage of those 'interior' locations was greater in Origins than in DA2 wasn't my point.

All true - although the fate of the Dalish is not presented as any sort of conscious decision or choice offered to you.  Their fate is determined by whether you choose a particular line of dialogue accepting responsibility for Merrill's actions.  Without metagaming, you would never know that you could have prevented their slaughter.  And whether Isabela returns is also not an intentional choice you make; it is determined by your relationship with her.

]I think it's easy to overlook some of the choices we were given in DA2 for a couple of reasons:
1) The scope.  You have presented a list of outcomes that impact individuals in DA2, but the Warden was making decisions that impacted entire cultures, cities, and a nation.

And in a way, so what. Is it your contention that from a role playing game perspective choices have to be ones that have epic or grand consequences on the large scale. And if not then its not 'role playing' ?

My contention would be a game in which your choices merely affect people rather than nations is just as valid and in some ways more interesting angle to take.

And despite those large scale changes my Warden implemented, I haven't really felt them or experienced them. They are mentioned in passing but beyond that haven't influenced game play to any great degree, if at all. And they probably never will because from a game design perspective, having large scale changes be reflected at the core of the gamers experience makes it much harder because of how you have to cater to numerous different players choices.

2) The presentation.  The Warden had specific options from which to choose, i.e., Mages vs Templars, Isolde vs Connor vs Mage Assistance, Harrowmont vs Bhelan, Elves vs Werewolves, Urn vs Cult - and could choose from those options to realize a specific outcome.  Many of the things Hawke influenced were not necessarily intentional; Hawke was reacting to dialogue and events and then others reacted accordingly.

Which mirrors real life does it not ? You react to many situations and how the situation unfolds depends on your reaction. You still have choices but you are not always the conscious instigator of change. Again, is it your contention that from a role playing choice, a player always has to be the knowledgable shaper of worlds and events ? Few people have such power. So I do like it that my choices might often lead to surprises.

So, taking Merrill and the Dalish as an example, sure you did not consciously take the decision to wipe them out but you made a choice nonetheless. They were incredibly hostile and you had options by which you could calm them down. Angry mobs kick off if you make flippant or hostile choices after all..so in a way you were forewarned things would not go pleasantly if you continually favoured Merrill throughout the game.

Effectively telling them that it was their spiritual leaders fault was the straw that broke that camel's back.

Modifié par Theagg, 28 juin 2011 - 02:36 .

[Pasquale1234]

Theagg wrote...

I know what I was referring to though perhaps I wasn't clear enough, hence your post. To reiterate I wasn't comparing the entirety of the locations in DA2 to the larger number of locations that make up the whole of Origins. So your long list above wasn't really neccessary since that had nothing to do with my argument.

I was comparing actual  'exterior' locations and variability within Kirkwalls streets, to the 'exterior' street locations of Denerim, Orzammar and Redcliffe combined. That includes the number of alleys, turns, length of streets you can regularly walk, that are not quest dependent  and the square footage of buildings represented lining those streets in each. Kirwall beats or equals those three put together

I was not including the interior of buildings (and quests tied to those interiors) within those towns and cities as part of the comparison. Where those interiors probably did amount to much more than Kirkwalls interiors.

But nonetheless, since you mentioned a few other (mostly interior) locations in Denerim.

The Pearl = The Hanged Man.
Back Alleys = Dirty Back Alley
The Arl's Estate = The Viscounts Keep probably
The Alienage = The Alienage

And so on.. but wether or not the square footage of those 'interior' locations was greater in Origins than in DA2 wasn't my point.

I would have done it more like this:
The Pearl = The Blooming Rose
The Gnawed Noble = The Hanged Man
... and Kirkwall's Alienage is a single courtyard, whereas Denerim's has multiple streets.

I would, however, agree that Kirkwall's exteriors feel expansive.

Theagg wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
All true - although the fate of the Dalish is not presented as any sort of conscious decision or choice offered to you.  Their fate is determined by whether you choose a particular line of dialogue accepting responsibility for Merrill's actions.  Without metagaming, you would never know that you could have prevented their slaughter.  And whether Isabela returns is also not an intentional choice you make; it is determined by your relationship with her.

]I think it's easy to overlook some of the choices we were given in DA2 for a couple of reasons:
1) The scope.  You have presented a list of outcomes that impact individuals in DA2, but the Warden was making decisions that impacted entire cultures, cities, and a nation.

And in a way, so what. Is it your contention that from a role playing game perspective choices have to be ones that have epic or grand consequences on the large scale. And if not then its not 'role playing' ?

My contention would be a game in which your choices merely affect people rather than nations is just as valid and in some ways more interesting angle to take.

I don't disagree with you.  I am merely postulating the reasons why so many players feel that their choices didn't matter in DA2, and I think the scope or sphere of influence may be part of it.

What you didn't mention is Hawke's influence with the Viscount, which is larger in scope than the ways Hawke can influence companions.  Being BFFs with the Captain of the Guard would likely exert some broader influence as well.

Theagg wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
2) The presentation.  The Warden had specific options from which to choose, i.e., Mages vs Templars, Isolde vs Connor vs Mage Assistance, Harrowmont vs Bhelan, Elves vs Werewolves, Urn vs Cult - and could choose from those options to realize a specific outcome.  Many of the things Hawke influenced were not necessarily intentional; Hawke was reacting to dialogue and events and then others reacted accordingly.

Which mirrors real life does it not ? You react to many situations and how the situation unfolds depends on your reaction. You still have choices but you are not always the conscious instigator of change. Again, is it your contention that from a role playing choice, a player always has to be the knowledgable shaper of worlds and events ? Few people have such power. So I do like it that my choices might often lead to surprises.

So, taking Merrill and the Dalish as an example, sure you did not consciously take the decision to wipe them out but you made a choice nonetheless. They were incredibly hostile and you had options by which you could calm them down. Angry mobs kick off if you make flippant or hostile choices after all..so in a way you were forewarned things would not go pleasantly if you continually favoured Merrill throughout the game.

Effectively telling them that it was their spiritual leaders fault was the straw that broke that camel's back.

Again - I'm not disagreeing with you except to say that you don't have to blame Marethari in order to have the clan attack you.  Telling them to stand down has the same effect.  Basically, any choice other than taking responsibility for Merrill will cause them to attack you (and taking responsibility for Merrill nets you a bunch of rivalry points with her).  This is one of the places where things felt inconsistent (or at the very least, dishonest) because there is nothing Hawke could do to dissuade her from that path, but ends up having to accept responsibility for her in order to keep the clan from taking actions that result in their annihilation (which you only know from metagaming).

Edited to fix quotes...

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 28 juin 2011 - 02:41 .

[Robhuzz]

I like both DAO and DA2 a great deal. Though DAO is (imo) a better game overall, DA2 is by no means a bad game. Sure it was rushed, had barely any polish and lots of reused maps, I still consider it a very good game. What BW did with the characters was very interesting too, having all of them live their own lives, while relying on Hawke for help, instead of just mindlessly following the protagonist and abandoning their own lives only to part ways after the story is finished.

I could go on for a while but I won't since I always hate having to read through incredibly long posts. In short I think DAO is still a better game overall but I really enjoyed DA2 as well and can't wait for some story DLC or a real expansion (provided it takes place after the main game).

[Theagg]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I really do believe there is a great deal more real estate to explore in DAO than DA2.  Many locations in Ferelden are visited only once - and in Kirkwall, you are visiting the same places multiple times in each act.  The Return to Ostagar DLC was really interesting to see, because it looked so very different with all of the tents gone and everything covered with snow.  It would have been really nice to see some obvious changes to Kirkwall and its environs during the 7 years we spend traipsing about the place.

I should have added as well that yes, I agree with you that seeing temporal changes over the 7 years in Kirkwall would have been a bonus.

But what form would those changes take.

If I take real life as an example and where I live. I have lived in this town for longer than Hawke lived in Kirkwall (I have been here over 11 years). Its not a small town nor a quiet backwater, its the hub of the local county council and local government. so its busy, it gets a lot of traffic from the large number of people who work here.

And yet it looks largely unchanged. The High street, the town centre, the shopping mall all look pretty much as they did back when I moved here. Save a few shop fronts that have changed as a result of new businesses moving in you would probably be hard pushed to tell the difference if presented with a picture of then versus now.

Even out of the town centre, the streets look almost exactly as they did 11 years ago. My street certainly does.

So what kind of changes would you expect to see in Kirkwall (in a period that probably moves more slowly than modern times) that don't simply appear to be arbitrary. Given how unchanging real world environments can be ?

And don't forget that for Origins, Denerim could be considered a hub of sort, somewhere you return to numerous times over the lenght of the campaign (a year, 18 months ?) and nothing changed there either.

In fact at least in Kirkwall a statue pops up. Not a very good statue mind you, looking nothing like my mage Hawke.

[Aaleel]

Theagg wrote...

I should have added as well that yes, I agree with you that seeing temporal changes over the 7 years in Kirkwall would have been a bonus.

But what form would those changes take.

If I take real life as an example and where I live. I have lived in this town for longer than Hawke lived in Kirkwall (I have been here over 11 years). Its not a small town nor a quiet backwater, its the hub of the local county council and local government. so its busy, it gets a lot of traffic from the large number of people who work here.

And yet it looks largely unchanged. The High street, the town centre, the shopping mall all look pretty much as they did back when I moved here. Save a few shop fronts that have changed as a result of new businesses moving in you would probably be hard pushed to tell the difference if presented with a picture of then versus now.

Even out of the town centre, the streets look almost exactly as they did 11 years ago. My street certainly does.

So what kind of changes would you expect to see in Kirkwall (in a period that probably moves more slowly than modern times) that don't simply appear to be arbitrary. Given how unchanging real world environments can be ?

And don't forget that for Origins, Denerim could be considered a hub of sort, somewhere you return to numerous times over the lenght of the campaign (a year, 18 months ?) and nothing changed there either.

In fact at least in Kirkwall a statue pops up. Not a very good statue mind you, looking nothing like my mage Hawke.

New vendors, new shops.  If anything changes in cities over the course of years its shops.  The same vendors stand in the same places, by the same tables all 7 years.  I live in a bigger city, and Kirkwall is a big city, and merchants will come and go over the course of years.

The city was damaged, set on fire and partly destroyed at the end of Act 2, so there would have definitely been more than just a new statue three years later.  And a lot of this damage took place in the area where the vendors were, so it definitely would have been some changes in that aspect.

People's houses don't change, no changes to the interiors of any of the buildings, things like this happen over the course of seven years.  I know my house doesn't look exactly as it did 7 years ago.  Not do the interiors of restaurants, bars, churches, etc. 

I would have been willing to say maybe this wasn't laziness and they thought the city wouldn't change if not for the things like the 6 year old dead bodies on the floor of Fenris house.

[Pasquale1234]

Theagg wrote...

I should have added as well that yes, I agree with you that seeing temporal changes over the 7 years in Kirkwall would have been a bonus.

But what form would those changes take.

If I take real life as an example and where I live. I have lived in this town for longer than Hawke lived in Kirkwall (I have been here over 11 years). Its not a small town nor a quiet backwater, its the hub of the local county council and local government. so its busy, it gets a lot of traffic from the large number of people who work here.

And yet it looks largely unchanged. The High street, the town centre, the shopping mall all look pretty much as they did back when I moved here. Save a few shop fronts that have changed as a result of new businesses moving in you would probably be hard pushed to tell the difference if presented with a picture of then versus now.

Even out of the town centre, the streets look almost exactly as they did 11 years ago. My street certainly does.

So what kind of changes would you expect to see in Kirkwall (in a period that probably moves more slowly than modern times) that don't simply appear to be arbitrary. Given how unchanging real world environments can be ?

And don't forget that for Origins, Denerim could be considered a hub of sort, somewhere you return to numerous times over the lenght of the campaign (a year, 18 months ?) and nothing changed there either.

In fact at least in Kirkwall a statue pops up. Not a very good statue mind you, looking nothing like my mage Hawke.

I believe that all of DAO takes place within a year, so would not really expect to see any changes when we revisit places there.

I'm not much of an artist, let alone a level designer, but here are a few things they might have done differently to show more changes from Act to Act -

- Repair the broken street tiles in Hightown
- Put different colors on the structures in a courtyard or two to give the appearance of repainting
- Build fountains and/or flower beds in the more expansive courtyards with different types of plantings from Act to Act
- Redecorate the Vhenedral in the alienage
- Different signage on commercial locations.  A lot of them didn't have any signage at all, and I feel that additional detail would have made Kirkwall seem more alive and lived in.  For that matter, there could have been some signage on the residential locations, too - addresses and maybe the name of the residents (which could change over time).
- Different clothing for some of the companions and new loungewear for Hawke.

A lot of the settings in this game lacked detail - ostensibly due to the short development timeframes.

IRL - yes, changes occur gradually which may be part of the reason why we don't notice it so much.

I do feel, though, that more visually impactful changes from Act to Act would have helped the player feel a greater sense of the passage of 3 years time between Acts.

[Theagg]

Aaleel wrote...

New vendors, new shops.  If anything changes in cities over the course of years its shops.  The same vendors stand in the same places, by the same tables all 7 years.  I live in a bigger city, and Kirkwall is a big city, and merchants will come and go over the course of years.

The city was damaged, set on fire and partly destroyed at the end of Act 2, so there would have definitely been more than just a new statue three years later.  And a lot of this damage took place in the area where the vendors were, so it definitely would have been some changes in that aspect.

People's houses don't change, no changes to the interiors of any of the buildings, things like this happen over the course of seven years.  I know my house doesn't look exactly as it did 7 years ago.  Not do the interiors of restaurants, bars, churches, etc. 

I would have been willing to say maybe this wasn't laziness and they thought the city wouldn't change if not for the things like the 6 year old dead bodies on the floor of Fenris house.

The dead bodies are hilarious, I absolutely grant you that. Not sure what that says about Fenris other than he probably doesn't get many visitors ! Do his lyrium scars radiate a preserving radiation or does he just love to shock his guests ? Bizarre. He is obviously an alcoholic too, so drowns himself in the bottle and never bothers to tidy up anything.

Shops do change in reality (only one shop in the mall in my town has changed in 11 years) but then again they didn't change in Denerim either, for the entire period just like Kirkwall, it was the same vendors in the same position. The same children running back and forth in the market, in the same place, the same dog, for a year or more.The guy in "The Wonders of Thedas" never moves, never a new assistant, perhaps that's what being Tranquil really means. You can stand in one spot for a year or more and not be bothered ! So then it just comes down to how long a period should elapse before visible changes occur ? A month, 6 months, 18 months, 3 years ? Where and why you draw the line of acceptability

The damage to Kirkwall following the Qunari uprising was manily superficial (In other words you will notice that its all the vendors stalls etc that have been upturned and set ablaze, along with a few other piles of burning wood used as barracades.) I didn't get any impression they actually used their gunpowder formula to do permanent structural damage.( Its a stone city remember) In essence they spilled out of their compound and some fires were set in the process of combat. But fairly quickly Hawke and co contained the situation. No buildings were blown up.

To me, its just as much a failure that no environmental changes occur in Denerim at all over that year or 18 months of campaigning Than in 3 or  7 years in Kirkwall. We don't even get seasonal changes in either game, we certainly get day/night changes in DA2. In almost all of Origins its perpetually day except at camp. When strangely its only ever night.

The Dalish camps in Origins and DA2 remain unchaged for the entire period as well.

Edit. My real point is, of course, that yes I would love to have seen temporal changes reflected in Kirkwall. But this failure in gaming design isn't exclusive to DA2. It is just as much a failing in Origins. (only people seem not to see it, or choose not to see it) Enough time elapsed 'in game' for there to have been (in fact should have been) visible temporal changes in the routinely frequented hubs and locations in Origins.

Modifié par Theagg, 28 juin 2011 - 04:26 .

[Theagg]

up there

Modifié par Theagg, 28 juin 2011 - 04:05 .

[Chromie]

Well Theagg I'm from NY and shops change all the time. Considering Kirkwall is supposed to be a city and not a small town it doesn't make sense.

Modifié par Ringo12, 28 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[Theagg]

Ringo12 wrote...

Well Theagg I'm from NY and shops change all the time. Considering Kirkwall is supposed to be a city and not a small town it doesn't make sense.

Its hard to draw such comparisons in reality though isn't it. You are comparing a fast paced modern city, with modern technology that can push change rapidly with a city in a 'medieval' parallel world.

[Pasquale1234]

Theagg wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Well Theagg I'm from NY and shops change all the time. Considering Kirkwall is supposed to be a city and not a small town it doesn't make sense.

Its hard to draw such comparisons in reality though isn't it. You are comparing a fast paced modern city, with modern technology that can push change rapidly with a city in a 'medieval' parallel world.

All that aside - here's the thing:

As an RPGer, I'm more than willing to do my share of the work in creating the gaming experience.  Using my imagination to step into the role of the PC, suspending disbelief, etc. - I'm willing to give myself over to the game to create the enjoyable experience it has to offer.

I expect the game developer to meet me halfway in doing everything they can reasonably do to create that experience.  I would expect them to have been thinking about the kinds of things they could do to give the gamer the feeling of the passage of time.  It was very courageous to take on this idea of a game taking place over a decade, and I have to believe that they are aware of what that might entail.

Despite my misgivings about DA2, I still think BioWare is genuinely brilliant.  I choose to believe that they would have liked to have done a lot more with this game, but lacked the time and resource to implement it.

[Theagg]

Pasquale1234 wrote...


All that aside - here's the thing:

As an RPGer, I'm more than willing to do my share of the work in creating the gaming experience.  Using my imagination to step into the role of the PC, suspending disbelief, etc. - I'm willing to give myself over to the game to create the enjoyable experience it has to offer.

I expect the game developer to meet me halfway in doing everything they can reasonably do to create that experience.  I would expect them to have been thinking about the kinds of things they could do to give the gamer the feeling of the passage of time.  It was very courageous to take on this idea of a game taking place over a decade, and I have to believe that they are aware of what that might entail.

Despite my misgivings about DA2, I still think BioWare is genuinely brilliant.  I choose to believe that they would have liked to have done a lot more with this game, but lacked the time and resource to implement it.

As I said in my edited post above, yep, temporal changes would have been great but Origins failed in this respect too. Given the time that elapsed in Origins, those kinds of changes should have also occured there. Its not a problem that soley plagues DA2.

[Pasquale1234]

Theagg wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...


All that aside - here's the thing:

As an RPGer, I'm more than willing to do my share of the work in creating the gaming experience.  Using my imagination to step into the role of the PC, suspending disbelief, etc. - I'm willing to give myself over to the game to create the enjoyable experience it has to offer.

I expect the game developer to meet me halfway in doing everything they can reasonably do to create that experience.  I would expect them to have been thinking about the kinds of things they could do to give the gamer the feeling of the passage of time.  It was very courageous to take on this idea of a game taking place over a decade, and I have to believe that they are aware of what that might entail.

Despite my misgivings about DA2, I still think BioWare is genuinely brilliant.  I choose to believe that they would have liked to have done a lot more with this game, but lacked the time and resource to implement it.

As I said in my edited post above, yep, temporal changes would have been great but Origins failed in this respect too. Given the time that elapsed in Origins, those kinds of changes should have also occured there. Its not a problem that soley plagues DA2.

The time that elapsed in Origins was less than a year.  Hawke fled Lothering post-Ostagar, and the archdemon was slain before s/he completed the year of servitude.  If you did Return to Ostagar, you would have seen it covered with snow.  It may have been helpful to show Flemeth's Hut also covered with snow, but the other parts of Ferelden we visited were far enough north that it is entirely possible that it doesn't snow up there. (Thedas seems to be in the southern hemisphere, as indicated by the fact that areas south of Ferelden are frozen wastelands).

I would also posit that showing the passage of time in Origins would have been counterproductive, in that the game rightfully had a sense of urgency to it.  It made sense for the Warden to want to complete the quests, gather the armies, and get to that archdemon asap.  There were no time jumps in Origins.

DA2 set out to cover a decade, and did so by adding 3-year time skips between Acts, and Codex entries to explain what your companions had been doing during those 3 years leaps.  Giving us more cues to show that passage of time would have been very helpful, imho.

[Chromie]

Theagg wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Well Theagg I'm from NY and shops change all the time. Considering Kirkwall is supposed to be a city and not a small town it doesn't make sense.

Its hard to draw such comparisons in reality though isn't it. You are comparing a fast paced modern city, with modern technology that can push change rapidly with a city in a 'medieval' parallel world.

Just saying. Don't see how your comparing Kirkwall to say your town but NY is somehow not allowed to be included in said comparison?

[Realmzmaster]

Please explain the sense of urgency in DAO? Because from my point of view there is none. After the destruction of Lothering the darkspawn army simply stops. A sense of urgency would occur if the army continued to destroy cities, towns or immediately threaten a potential ally. None of that happens. After Lothering it looks like the ArchDemon went on vacation and waited for the warden to gather his army.
The ArchDemon's army should be seen over running the land like Sherman's March through the South (to give some perspective). Or Patton's 3rd army rushing to relieve the besieged army at Bastogne. (Patton pushed his army so hard it made the trip in half the time it normally took.) That is a sense of urgency. That is not apparent in DAO.

[Theagg]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

The time that elapsed in Origins was less than a year.  Hawke fled Lothering post-Ostagar, and the archdemon was slain before s/he completed the year of servitude.  If you did Return to Ostagar, you would have seen it covered with snow.  It may have been helpful to show Flemeth's Hut also covered with snow, but the other parts of Ferelden we visited were far enough north that it is entirely possible that it doesn't snow up there. (Thedas seems to be in the southern hemisphere, as indicated by the fact that areas south of Ferelden are frozen wastelands).

I would also posit that showing the passage of time in Origins would have been counterproductive, in that the game rightfully had a sense of urgency to it.  It made sense for the Warden to want to complete the quests, gather the armies, and get to that archdemon asap.  There were no time jumps in Origins.

DA2 set out to cover a decade, and did so by adding 3-year time skips between Acts, and Codex entries to explain what your companions had been doing during those 3 years leaps.  Giving us more cues to show that passage of time would have been very helpful, imho.

I have read several opinions as to the exact time elapsed in Origins, up to around 18 months. But thats actually irrelevant to the real heart of the issue.

For me, its just as absurd that I can head off to Orzammar, sort out what is going on there, do the Deep Roads (How long are we down there ?) and then nip back to Denerim Market to find the same children playing in the same spot walking along the same programmed path and the two sisters still standing outside the Denerim Chantry in exactly the same spot. Several weeks, perhaps months later in game terms.

I should be able to walk into Denerim Market each time and see something new..its a bustling market after all, these things change by the day, by the week. Never mind by the year...but no.

I find those temporal inconsistencies more ridiculous, far more 'offensive' than Not being able to see subtle paintwork changes on the walls, or a few insignificant tiles on the street be fixed over the period of 3 to 7 years in the quite literally set in stone environment of Kirkwall. And so on.

And just to show I'm not biased, these greater (for me) problems with temporal immutability exist in Kirkwall too, the same people walking the same streets in the same places. That dwarf outside Hawke's mansion for example. What's up with him ?

The lack of representing temporal changes when for me there should be patently obvious changes, not subtle ones is a failing of both Origins and DA2. And since its a problem with both and largely comes down to subjective appeal as to what should change when, I can't condenm the one game for this failing, as though its a terrible faux pas on behalf of the designers and let the other off the hook. The designers clearly failed to represent change in both games.

So I don't condemn either of them. And get on with the game ignoring these ridiculous moments.

Well, except for the bodies in Fenris's mansion as was pointed out earlier. The smell must be awful.

Modifié par Theagg, 28 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[xkg]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Please explain the sense of urgency in DAO? Because from my point of view there is none. After the destruction of Lothering the darkspawn army simply stops. A sense of urgency would occur if the army continued to destroy cities, towns or immediately threaten a potential ally. None of that happens. After Lothering it looks like the ArchDemon went on vacation and waited for the warden to gather his army.
The ArchDemon's army should be seen over running the land like Sherman's March through the South (to give some perspective). Or Patton's 3rd army rushing to relieve the besieged army at Bastogne. (Patton pushed his army so hard it made the trip in half the time it normally took.) That is a sense of urgency. That is not apparent in DAO.

What about that darkened area (how far the blight has reached) on the Ferelden map slowly moving forward as you progress through the story?

Modifié par xkg, 28 juin 2011 - 07:48 .

[Realmzmaster]

xkg wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Please explain the sense of urgency in DAO? Because from my point of view there is none. After the destruction of Lothering the darkspawn army simply stops. A sense of urgency would occur if the army continued to destroy cities, towns or immediately threaten a potential ally. None of that happens. After Lothering it looks like the ArchDemon went on vacation and waited for the warden to gather his army.
The ArchDemon's army should be seen over running the land like Sherman's March through the South (to give some perspective). Or Patton's 3rd army rushing to relieve the besieged army at Bastogne. (Patton pushed his army so hard it made the trip in half the time it normally took.) That is a sense of urgency. That is not apparent in DAO.

What about that darkened area (how far the blight has reached) on the Ferelden map slowly moving forward as you progress through the story?

But it affects nothing. If you show me cities or towns being burnt, or at least a cinematic showing areas being over ran you get a sense of urgency, but it still has no effect on the mission. Now if you could actually lose a potential ally because of the over running areas that would be a sense of urgency.  Say the darkspawn wipe out the elves or werewolves or keep the dwarves bottle up in their city so you lose an army that would convey that sense.

[Spankoman]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You aren't the only person, but most of the other ones get chased off.

I perferred DA2 more (still loved DAO just fine) but probably not for the precise reasons you did. I connected with Hawke and his companions more. And loved how they fully interracted with each other and felt like real friends and rivals, rather than a group that just seemed to travel with each other.

I actually haven't managed to get anyone to rival status with me. Fenris seems like a good choice for that, but he's always so distasteful to me that I just ignore him and never add him to my party. I'm sure there's some interesting content in his missions, but I've never done them across multiple playthroughs. It was the same for me with Sten. After the first attempt at talking to him in my first playthrough, I just left him to die in all the others. Even during the conversations you have with him while he's caged, there's just no reason to let him go. He's a douche.

[ISI-Society]

Regarding the subject of this thread: although I liked the roleplaying with the companions in DAO better (and the writing in Awakenings), the combat mechanics engine in DA2 is noticeably better.

Overall, I'm reluctantly inclined to admit that DA2, dispite it's bugs and corner cutting, is marginally the better game.

Spankoman wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You aren't the only person, but most of the other ones get chased off.

I perferred DA2 more (still loved DAO just fine) but probably not for the precise reasons you did. I connected with Hawke and his companions more. And loved how they fully interracted with each other and felt like real friends and rivals, rather than a group that just seemed to travel with each other.

I actually haven't managed to get anyone to rival status with me. Fenris seems like a good choice for that, but he's always so distasteful to me that I just ignore him and never add him to my party. I'm sure there's some interesting content in his missions, but I've never done them across multiple playthroughs. It was the same for me with Sten. After the first attempt at talking to him in my first playthrough, I just left him to die in all the others. Even during the conversations you have with him while he's caged, there's just no reason to let him go. He's a douche.

Regarding Rival Status:  I'm having a rather easy time of it.  I'm on my 3rd playthough (this time as a mage) and I've had plenty of time to figure out the various pet issues of each companion, and either boost their friendship or rivalry score accordingly by selecting which quests I bring them on.  In fact, I only have about 5 trophies left on my way to platinum, and I'm working on the "Rival" trophy as we speak ... in my case, with Carver.  I'm already at Negative 90 with him, and I'm only not quite 2/3 the way through Act 1.  In fact, one more -10 from him (easily accomplished by refusing to bring him on the Deep Roads mission) will unlock the trophy, so that's effectively already in the bag.    

As for Sten - he may have looked like a douche at first glance, but there's a lot more to him if you're patient and persistent, and if you roleplay the game well, and are steadfast and honorable, he'll award you the Kadan honorific by the end of the game.  And he's right by the way ... the cake WAS indeed a lie.

[Pasquale1234]

Realmzmaster wrote...

xkg wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Please explain the sense of urgency in DAO? Because from my point of view there is none. After the destruction of Lothering the darkspawn army simply stops. A sense of urgency would occur if the army continued to destroy cities, towns or immediately threaten a potential ally. None of that happens. After Lothering it looks like the ArchDemon went on vacation and waited for the warden to gather his army.
The ArchDemon's army should be seen over running the land like Sherman's March through the South (to give some perspective). Or Patton's 3rd army rushing to relieve the besieged army at Bastogne. (Patton pushed his army so hard it made the trip in half the time it normally took.) That is a sense of urgency. That is not apparent in DAO.

What about that darkened area (how far the blight has reached) on the Ferelden map slowly moving forward as you progress through the story?

But it affects nothing. If you show me cities or towns being burnt, or at least a cinematic showing areas being over ran you get a sense of urgency, but it still has no effect on the mission. Now if you could actually lose a potential ally because of the over running areas that would be a sense of urgency.  Say the darkspawn wipe out the elves or werewolves or keep the dwarves bottle up in their city so you lose an army that would convey that sense.

In addition to the ever-growing darkened areas of the map, we also have a scene where the camp is attacked by darkspawn and the party recognizes that they are no longer safe in camp (which I interpret to mean the spawn are advancing and growing in numbers).  There are other things sprinkled throughout the game that serve as  reminders of the threat - dreams, the scene of the archdemon gathering the horde while the party is in the deep roads, crossed-sword travel interrupts where we help soldiers fight off spawn attacks - to name a few.  I felt that those things were there to provide a sense of urgency, and that is the effect they had on me when I played the game.

[Realmzmaster]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

xkg wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Please explain the sense of urgency in DAO? Because from my point of view there is none. After the destruction of Lothering the darkspawn army simply stops. A sense of urgency would occur if the army continued to destroy cities, towns or immediately threaten a potential ally. None of that happens. After Lothering it looks like the ArchDemon went on vacation and waited for the warden to gather his army.
The ArchDemon's army should be seen over running the land like Sherman's March through the South (to give some perspective). Or Patton's 3rd army rushing to relieve the besieged army at Bastogne. (Patton pushed his army so hard it made the trip in half the time it normally took.) That is a sense of urgency. That is not apparent in DAO.

What about that darkened area (how far the blight has reached) on the Ferelden map slowly moving forward as you progress through the story?

But it affects nothing. If you show me cities or towns being burnt, or at least a cinematic showing areas being over ran you get a sense of urgency, but it still has no effect on the mission. Now if you could actually lose a potential ally because of the over running areas that would be a sense of urgency.  Say the darkspawn wipe out the elves or werewolves or keep the dwarves bottle up in their city so you lose an army that would convey that sense.

In addition to the ever-growing darkened areas of the map, we also have a scene where the camp is attacked by darkspawn and the party recognizes that they are no longer safe in camp (which I interpret to mean the spawn are advancing and growing in numbers).  There are other things sprinkled throughout the game that serve as  reminders of the threat - dreams, the scene of the archdemon gathering the horde while the party is in the deep roads, crossed-sword travel interrupts where we help soldiers fight off spawn attacks - to name a few.  I felt that those things were there to provide a sense of urgency, and that is the effect they had on me when I played the game.

The attacks on the road only occured if you gain an ally. There was no chance encounter meetings. If the darkspawn were littering the countryside they were almost invisible. You end up fighting more spiders and wolves than darkspawn until you reach the deep roads. The party should have been under constant attack unless they were in a city like Orzammar.
The elves and werewolves should have been under attack. Redcliffe should have been under attack from both darkspawn and the undead. In fact the darkspawn and undead should have been duking it out. Even the desire demon would not have been powerful enough to stop the ArchDemon and darkspawn army.
Also according to Duncan wardens always had bad dreams because of the taint they intensified during Blights.
The scene with the ArchDemon in the Deep Roads is one of few where the ArchDemon appears and then nothing.
The reason why there is a lack of urgency is that it would kill exploration via sidequests. It would be hard to justify spending time on sidequests if the darkspawn army was marching wiping out everything.

If you got a sense of urgency out of it I happy for you.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 28 juin 2011 - 11:02 .