182 réponses à ce sujet

[Salaya]

For some years, it's becoming a cliche to speak about RPG decline, specially when it comes to japanese titles

As many other genres, RPGs divided world-gamers: most western players despised eastern manners, and viceversa. But, since five years or so, most critics and general audience noticed that japanese titles were becoming stale and absurdly repetitive. Gameplay and art direction suffered from lack of ideas and most respected franchises became relative failures. The brief international-comercial success of japanese RPG ended. 

On the other hand, western RPGs gained much more attention, with media and public focused on them. They gained some respect that was not present before. Probably because "modern" western RPGs made a good use of clever production and art direction (and, of course, progressive simplification). At this point, we got Origins, wich, I must confess, I consider the perfect balance between classic and new gameplay values. There are other examples, as The Witcher, Mass Effect or Bethesda titles. The comercial and specialized press success announced some kind of golden era for the genre... but then, three years or so forward, the situation has changed drastically.

Now, we have DA2, a fun action-RPG game with mixed reception, that openly denies western RPG roots. The production and art direction becames lazy, and the idea of simplification and wider audiences impregnates every inch of it. More or less, with their own particularities, happens to other respected franchises.

For me, it's clear that western RPGs are suffering from his own decline, similar (yet different) from the one that killed the international success of japanese ones. 

What do you think? Im talking nosense? Or do you think this is the prologue to CRPG death? Since all points to the over-massification of videogames, Im certain that CRPGS will be "erased" from the front-line commercial titles.

Modifié par Salaya, 23 juin 2011 - 08:49 .

[Serpieri Nei]

I wouldn't call DA2 an action game - let alone a fun one. It has very little in common with games like God of War, Bayonette, and Darksiders. Bioware did try to make an Action/RPG to appeal to a larger audience but Witcher 2 is far more successful in that category combining elements from both genres where DA2 was rushed to production and lost much of what made Origins a critically acclaimed game to begin with.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 23 juin 2011 - 07:33 .

[TEWR]

I wouldn't say DA2 is making CRPGs decline, but I wouldn't say it's making them ascend higher either.


It's too soon to say. If Bioware doesn't bring back some of the Origins elements they took away when DA3 comes around, then I would think the CRPG genre is starting to deteriorate.


One game can make you fearful, but I wouldn't use one game as the truth of the matter.

[Tirfan]

^ This. I do fear this, and if it truly is the case that the genre is dying, well, perhaps it is the time for me to move on and give up playing pc-rpgs altogether. I still got civilization to put hours to when I have the time.

[syllogi]

As someone who loved the adventure game genre, yeah, I see this coming. It pains me, but video game developers don't see maximum profits in "traditional" western RPGs. I would love to be pleasantly surprised in the future, like I was by Fallout: New Vegas, but I have to accept that I am not the target audience for a company like Bioware anymore.

Which is a shame, because I am a loyal customer. But that's not good enough, apparently.

[Spooky81]

I wouldn't agree DA2 is causing a decline for the entire genre, though i will say DA2 certainly steered away from the very essence and elements which make RPGs beautiful and a world onto it's own. Looking back on some of the industry most successful rpg titles(BioWare rpgs, TES, TW series, etc), the design approaches taken for the rpg aspects in DA2 were an utter disgrace and I refuse to waste anymore of my time playing DA2. All my hopes for the future of Bioware's RPGs lie in DA3 or future DLC for DA2. I certainly hope Bioware can bring all the vibrance and beauty it could once created back into it's RPGs.

[Ariella]

The sky is falling... we're all going to die... Heard it all before, don't believe the hype. First of all, I don't see where DA2 decries its roots any more than say Witcher 1-2 or Mass Effect. DAO style isn't cost effective anymore, and we've been seeing THAT for years. DA2 took what feedback Bioware got about what didn't work in DAO, and tried to do it differently. In some cases it worked, some did not. I however, enjoy the game, and have trouble seeing it as a stake through the heart of the Western subgenre of RPGs.

[Salaya]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

I wouldn't call DA2 an action game

Me neither My mistake. 

And, on a general note, I dont think that DA2 caused the decline. I was trying to say that DA2 is a very representative example of the fothcoming decline. 

It's true that there are still some cool titles, but the trend is to negate the western RPG roots.

[Tirfan]

I think it could be a stake trough the heart for story driven western rpg with tactical party based combat, time will tell, and if it is, well, that is too bad, I had good times with these though, it is quite disappointing not to have anything like this to look forward to, but, such is life.

Should have said this in the first post but, sadly I was only able to put this thought into words just now.

[syllogi]

Salaya wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

I wouldn't call DA2 an action game

Me neither My mistake. 

And, on a general note, I dont think that DA2 caused the decline. I was trying to say that DA2 is a very representative example of the fothcoming decline. 

It's true that there are still some cool titles, but the trend is to negate the western RPG roots.

Agreed, I do not think that DA2 is some big catalyst, and when the day comes that there are no more traditional western CRPGs being made, we're not going to point to DA2 as the cause.  I do think that it is part of a trend, however, and I don't see the devs being interested in going back.  Either the audience will embrace the changes, or they won't.

I will just be very peeved if Bioware one day points to poor sales for DA2 as proof that people don't want RPGs anymore.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

I will just be very peeved if Bioware one day points to poor sales for DA2 as proof that people don't want RPGs anymore.

They can't. Not when competitive titles like The Witcher 2, Fallout series, and Elder Scrolls series (to name a few) come out with eyebrow raising profits. They have to take into account their sales but also the sales of their competition. From a business point of view, just looking at one release and declaring failure for the genre is folly. You must look at the big picture.

[Zanallen]

Tirfan wrote...

I think it could be a stake trough the heart for story driven western rpg with tactical party based combat, time will tell, and if it is, well, that is too bad, I had good times with these though, it is quite disappointing not to have anything like this to look forward to, but, such is life.

Should have said this in the first post but, sadly I was only able to put this thought into words just now.

So, a stake through the heart of pretty much only Bioware games?

[TEWR]

I will say this. Though very unrealistic, if I won millions of dollars and the Dragon Age series died because of DA2 or DA3, I'd start a new gaming company and resurrect the series starting with Dragon Age 2.


Anyway, unrealistic dreams aside, I don't see CRPGs as dying yet. The devs need to understand that trying to morph one genre into another is not a good thing to do. Eventually, all games will be horrendous and people will have to tolerate them.

It's kinda like music in America. There was a time when almost all music was astoundingly great. Now, we have horrendous music clogging up the radio.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 juin 2011 - 09:34 .

[Ariella]

Zanallen wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

I think it could be a stake trough the heart for story driven western rpg with tactical party based combat, time will tell, and if it is, well, that is too bad, I had good times with these though, it is quite disappointing not to have anything like this to look forward to, but, such is life.

Should have said this in the first post but, sadly I was only able to put this thought into words just now.

So, a stake through the heart of pretty much only Bioware games?

Doubt it...

[adlocutio]

People are always quick to poo-poo the old tabletop rpg systems like AD&D as unfit for tabletop or cRPG nowadays because of some of the silly or outdated rules. But the older systems had more roleplaying in mind, and for all their flaws there's still a lot we could take from them.

Nonweapon proficiencies

Economics

Stats which describe the character in real-world terms (i.e. 15 strength means you can lift so much)

Things to do out of combat (thieving, making weapons or armor, alchemy, making scrolls, building castles, raising armies)

The beauty of these systems was that you could approach the game from any angle you could imagine. Your character could be successful in a huge variety of ways. Combat was much more varied, too. Each enemy was an individual who fought thusly.

There's no reason companies can't reintroduce these features and make them fun and not overly complicated. I understand wanting to appeal to the most people, but at some point you're just going to have to ask them to learn what an RPG is and expect them to play it as such.

Otherwise, why make RPGs at all? If you called Dragon Age ][ a fantasy-movie tactical combat simulator, you'd pretty much have it.

[Ariella]

adlocutio wrote...

People are always quick to poo-poo the old tabletop rpg systems like AD&D as unfit for tabletop or cRPG nowadays because of some of the silly or outdated rules. But the older systems had more roleplaying in mind, and for all their flaws there's still a lot we could take from them.

Nonweapon proficiencies

Economics

Stats which describe the character in real-world terms (i.e. 15 strength means you can lift so much)

Things to do out of combat (thieving, making weapons or armor, alchemy, making scrolls, building castles, raising armies)

The beauty of these systems was that you could approach the game from any angle you could imagine. Your character could be successful in a huge variety of ways. Combat was much more varied, too. Each enemy was an individual who fought thusly.

There's no reason companies can't reintroduce these features and make them fun and not overly complicated. I understand wanting to appeal to the most people, but at some point you're just going to have to ask them to learn what an RPG is and expect them to play it as such.

Otherwise, why make RPGs at all? If you called Dragon Age ][ a fantasy-movie tactical combat simulator, you'd pretty much have it.

AD&D second edition was a wonderful thing, but translating it to a binary system (aka computers) just wouldn't happen without some major changes. If I may point out, crafting skills didn't appear in crpgs until 3E and the advent of the MMO. Stats do have meaning inDA2, it's just not related to mircomanagement issues like inventory space. As for economics, I cannot think of a crpg pre MMO where that was really important except maybe Ultima series. Otherwise, there really was no economic base in the games and I certainly don't remember worrying overmuch about it when I played table top. 

DA 2 is an RPG. You assume a role, which is the entire point. It's storytelling. That's what roleplaying is about at the very core. It's "let's pretend" with rules.

[AngryFrozenWater]

These days the gaming industry is big business. The investments are high, so the risk has to be low to safeguard a proper return of investments. The industry cannot live on creativity alone anymore. Research into what people like in games is becoming important. Telemetry has found its place there. How much time the players have to play in a day determines the length of levels and quests. Gamers want eye and ear candy in their games, so they get it. Special effects need to compete with movies. Games need to support the hardware industry, like new gadgets and devices. The market has to adapt to what people are willing to spend on games. The introduction of DLCs and micro-transactions is no coincidence. Games need to sell more copies to pay for the large investments, so they have to appeal to a large audience. Development needs to be cost effective. The CPRG is in the unlucky position that developers think it is too complex, so it needs to be dumbed down to reach a big enough market. The professionalism creeps in and all of the above lead to games that borrow features from each other. All or most of that shows in DA2.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 23 juin 2011 - 11:46 .

[adlocutio]

Ariella wrote...

adlocutio wrote...
[snip]

AD&D second edition was a wonderful thing, but translating it to a binary system (aka computers) just wouldn't happen without some major changes. If I may point out, crafting skills didn't appear in crpgs until 3E and the advent of the MMO. Stats do have meaning inDA2, it's just not related to mircomanagement issues like inventory space. As for economics, I cannot think of a crpg pre MMO where that was really important except maybe Ultima series. Otherwise, there really was no economic base in the games and I certainly don't remember worrying overmuch about it when I played table top. 

DA 2 is an RPG. You assume a role, which is the entire point. It's storytelling. That's what roleplaying is about at the very core. It's "let's pretend" with rules.

No one suggested translating AD&D into a binary system or making a cRPG out of it.  I said it had good things we can take from it.

When crafting originated in cRPGs is irrelevant.  It's what people do in a real or fantasy world.  So doing it in character is an expansion of roleplaying.

Stats in DA2 are only related to combat.  That's it.  They are abstractions for a combat mechanic.  They have no lore-based in-world meaning.  No one suggested using strength for inventory management.  I suggested using stats in out of combat situations for roleplaying purposes. I suggested they be defined by an in-world relationship so that they contributed to roleplaying.  As of DA2, stats do not contribute to roleplaying.

All cRPGs I've played have economics.  Mostly its a simple system of collecting gold and buying and selling things. In many cases you can craft and sell.  That is the basis of all economy, you know. There's no reason it can't be expanded and be fun.

You suggest that assuming a role is the same as storytelling.  That's only true when it is a cooperative story being told by both the player and the DM or the game company.  The less the player is involved in telling the story the less it can be called roleplaying.

Everything I mentioned (Stats, non-combat skills, economics, etc) enhances the player's interaction with the game world.  Not having them reduces the player's interaction with the game world.  Therefore the story is less cooperative.  Therefore it is less of a roleplaying game. 

In other words, assuming a role does not mean making some dialogue choices, choosing powers, and fighting in combat.  Presumably your character does much, much more than that in the game world.  The less control the player has over the PC, the less roleplaying there is. 

I'm not arguing for overly-complicated micromanagement.  In fact, if Bioware can't make non-combat skills and activities fun, they should keep working on it until they do.  The problem is, if they can't make it fun then that is a failure on their part.  I've had many experiences out of combat which I would consider fun, including in DA:O.

[Chromie]

 How much of a decline can there be? Clearly there is a market for it.

This year we had

unfortunately Dragon Age II

Witcher 2 which is amazing, Deus Ex from the leak I have really really liked it and then there is Skyrim. I haven't seen such an impressive line up of rpg's like this in a long time.

[Mr.House]

Ringo12 wrote...

 How much of a decline can there be? Clearly there is a market for it.

This year we had

unfortunately Dragon Age II

Witcher 2 which is amazing, Deus Ex from the leak I have really really liked it and then there is Skyrim. I haven't seen such an impressive line up of rpg's like this in a long time.

TW2 is more of an action RPG then a CRPG. Deus Ex is a RPG shooter(a very good one at that mind you)

As for Skyrim, that is a CRPG, will it be good or just graphic porn however remains to be seen.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Japanese games are **** because they're made for an RPG audience. No one... NO ONE that isn't an RPG fan looks at Final Fantasy and says "Yay! Sixteen options for to do 11-18 points of damage, oh glee! I can't wait to spend thirty hours exploring a village to find four of those options!"

Western RPGs are more popular because their audience is larger... because the RPG is more versatile. Baldur's Gate, PS:T, Deus Ex, Morrowind, Fallout 3, Sims: Medieval... They all offer you a role. Offer you skills and abilities to choose and customize your character with and gameplay that offers different paths you can choose and personalities you can simulate.

Western RPGs are made for the people who play games. Eastern RPGs are made for RPG fans. The reason there aren't that many BG/DAO style games is that there isn't that much of an audience for them. I've been playing RPGs since elves were character class (augh, I hate being that guy). DAO games bore me. DAO was my last game like it.

DA2, ME2... sign me up. They have what I enjoy (they aren't perfect) and they tossed out most of the tedium. Western RPGs aren't declining. They're putting their tea saucers down and getting body art. Gaming is Big Timez now. RPGs should be part of it.

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 24 juin 2011 - 12:49 .

[Phaelducan]

@OP

"As many other genres, RPGs divided world-gamers: most western players despised eastern manners, and viceversa"

Lies, and fail. Every single person I have ever met who likes the genre likes examples from both sides of the Pacific.

[Serpieri Nei]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Japanese games are **** because they're made for an RPG audience. No one... NO ONE that isn't an RPG fan looks at Final Fantasy and says "Yay! Sixteen options for to do 11-18 points of damage, oh glee! I can't wait to spend thirty hours exploring a village to find four of those options!"

Western RPGs are more popular because their audience is larger... because the RPG is more versatile. Baldur's Gate, PS:T, Deus Ex, Morrowind, Fallout 3, Sims: Medieval... They all offer you a role. Offer you skills and abilities to choose and customize your character with and gameplay that offers different paths you can choose and personalities you can simulate.

Western RPGs are made for the people who play games. Eastern RPGs are made for RPG fans. The reason there aren't that many BG/DAO style games is that there isn't that much of an audience for them. I've been playing RPGs since elves were character class (augh, I hate being that guy). DAO games bore me. DAO was my last game like it.

DA2, ME2... sign me up. They have what I enjoy (they aren't perfect) and they tossed out most of the tedium. Western RPGs aren't declining. They're putting their tea saucers down and getting body art. Gaming is Big Timez now. RPGs should be part of it.

So let me get this right jRPG’s are made for the RPG audience.  So, why haven’t I played any of the jRPG's then? Because according to you they are made for RPG fans. And instead I have played Baulder’s Gate, Neverwinter Series, Planescape, Fall Out, Elder Scrolls, and others. And they only have sixteen options to only do 11-18 damage? You sure you have played D&D? Its OK not everyone can figure out the rule set. Don’t like exploration? You must like corridor games then. 

Wetern RPG’s are more popular because of a larger audience? Um, are you even aware of how well FF does in pre-orders? Heck, Final Fantasy X sold around 1.4 million and that’s just the numbers from the Japanese market. You know Bioware would kill for those numbers right?

So, according to you there isn’t an audience for people who play western RPG’s because they are made for those that like to game. Yet, Origins was critically acclaimed and sold over 3.7 million which I believe doesn’t include digital distribution. It’s still no where as good as what Elder Scrolls and jRPG’s like Final Fantasy but that just means that Bioware has to try to be better at going forward instead of taking huge leaps backwards.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 24 juin 2011 - 01:45 .

[DragonRageGT]

As for the RPG "decline", I'd suggest you read this piece:


The New York Times review of The Witcher 2

But every once in a while a game arrives out of the blue that redefines expectations for an entire genre. A game like The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings. If you enjoy single-player role-playing games on PC, you simply must play The Witcher 2. Innovative, unflinchingly mature and richly imagined, it is driven by fascinating, finely nuanced characters navigating a fantasy world of dark political intrigue and ambiguous morals.

Yay.. eat that, infidels!