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[Serpieri Nei]

RageGT wrote...

As for the RPG "decline", I'd suggest you read this piece:


The New York Times review of The Witcher 2

But every once in a while a game arrives out of the blue that redefines expectations for an entire genre. A game like The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings. If you enjoy single-player role-playing games on PC, you simply must play The Witcher 2. Innovative, unflinchingly mature and richly imagined, it is driven by fascinating, finely nuanced characters navigating a fantasy world of dark political intrigue and ambiguous morals.

Yay.. eat that, infidels!

Nice Article..

which reminds me I goto save Triss.

[RangerSG]

You know, I think I've heard the "RPG is a dying genre" line for almost a generation. I remember hearing it when BG and FO came out and started the RPG renaissance.

The problem the genre has now is how do they balance more modern technology and graphics with the in-depth lore and storytelling genre fans expect. DA2 tried to do this and fell short, probably because the short development cycle did not allow an adequate opportunity to create the needed depth.

We can talk all we want about how the old games were great. But how many of us have DOS emulators so we can play Daggerfall still? Or are willing to stare at the oversized icons from the original Baldur's Gate? Yes, I break out BG2 every so often still. But I won't claim that I would buy that game today with the graphics it had then. So merging technology and gameplay IS a valid concern.

It's not a "dying" genre. Bioware may or may not be crippled by its alliance with EA, time will tell. DA2 isn't a good signpost in itself, because it's only one game and it had a crippling handicap in development time. If the release date being floated for DA3 (2013) is accurate, then that will be a far better marker for where Bioware is. Either way, the genre will adapt and have a market. It's simply a matter of who will be the ones to take the latest technology into the future.

Bioware did it with the RPG Renaissance. Maybe they will again. Maybe it'll be someone else. But doom and gloom is misplaced angst.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

RangerSG wrote...
You know, I think I've heard the "RPG is a dying genre" line for almost a generation. I remember hearing it when BG and FO came out and started the RPG renaissance.

(I did read the whole post. But...)

Yes, I've heard this response forever, right along with "PC gaming is dead". It's not dead, it's just different and I'm sure it'll change again. Lest we forget the billion dollar, ever-growing, MMORPG market.

You can bet your boots that Skyrim will also have some pretty nice revenue numbers when it makes its debut along with a similar article. It must be said though that Witcher 2 was a real labor of love for that Dev team, Witcher 1 was not a major hit (it did well enough though, but it was no Dragon Age Origins). The team re-evaulated and took their time in making 2. No rushing! *hint* *hint*

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 24 juin 2011 - 02:04 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

So let me get this right jRPG’s are made for the RPG audience.  So, why haven’t I played any of the jRPG's then?

They're boring.  They're made for the same crowd.  Again.  And Again.  And Again.

Wetern RPG’s are more popular because of a larger audience? Um, are you even aware of how well FF does in pre-orders? Heck, Final Fantasy X sold around 1.4 million and that’s just the numbers from the Japanese market. You know Bioware would kill for those numbers right?

The same people.  Again.  And Again.  And Again.  Check out Formula Fantasy's sales numbers.  They trend down.  Down like water.  Circling the toilet.  Carrying JRPGs.  Into the sewers.  Gurrglgurglegyele-blump.

I'll paraphrase that dude from Square, I forget his name so I'll call him Important Developer-San: "Holy ****, check out all the western games at E3.  Damn, guys, eastern games are broken!"

So, according to you there isn’t an audience for people who play western RPG’s because they are made for those that like to game.

Hahah!   I never said that.  I would =never= make the assumption that "like to game" means "be bored playing hunt and peck Tedium RPGs (tRPGs!) from the 1980s."  You might confuse gaming for tedious gameplay, but I won't.


DA2 and ME2 are what RPGs need.  They're a refinement of what's good about RPGs... They keep the story, the characters, the action, and they flush the boring parts.  It's a big change to the forumla, so it's got some rough patches.  It shall get better.

[Realmzmaster]

Western CRPGs are not dying but they will change and are changing. Change will either come as a revolution or an evolution of the genre, The problem with JRPGs is that they became formulaic. The developers rightly or wrongly felt their audience wanted the same experience for the new game in the series and even across series.
Western CRPGs can have the same problem. For awhile everybody believe that CRPGs should be based on the D & D formula. The west fortunately (especially in the US) spawned RPGs that broke that mold like Vampire by White Wolf, Mega Traveller, Tunnels and Troll, RuneQuest and GURPS There was a wealth of inspiration from which to pull.Some excellent CRPGs were pulled from that wealth of inspiration.
Games like Ultima IV, the Fallout series, Vampire: The Masquerade dare to be different in story and scope.

The problem for any developer is how to keep the existing fan base happy while pulling in a new generation. The old fan base may want more of a successful formula, but that can lead to stagnation. The point is to introduce change to the series in a way that draws in the new while keeping roots in the old. A very difficult balancing act.

Just a few musings and my opinion.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 24 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[In Exile]

Like Ranger said, AAA RPGs need a new direction. TW2 is a good example of that: it's role-playing not in the fantasy role creation sense but rather the acting role adoption sense, with generally high quality reactive plot with modular open-world (on a small scale) design. When you think about it, TW2 blends a lot of elements from older cRPGs and advances that Bioware brought forward to the genre.

[KLUME777]

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

[csfteeeer]

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

*Cough* CD Projekt RED  *Cough*

[Cyberarmy]

In Exile wrote...

Like Ranger said, AAA RPGs need a new direction. TW2 is a good example of that: it's role-playing not in the fantasy role creation sense but rather the acting role adoption sense, with generally high quality reactive plot with modular open-world (on a small scale) design. When you think about it, TW2 blends a lot of elements from older cRPGs and advances that Bioware brought forward to the genre.

TW2 raises the standarts a lot. That game even dispelled the idea that RPGs not having top notch graphics.İ havent seen such an eye candy while having one of the strongest illlusion of choice.AND it is done by a small Europian firm...

Now we have  really big corps like EA with more resources on the other hand. İ think it is our right to expect high standarts from them but we get DA2 and C&C4...

[TEWR]

All EA has ever cared about was getting profits when a game is released while they acted like cheap misers when the game itself was being developed.


This Christmas, I hope all of EA gets visited by 3 ghosts. Well, technically 4, but you get my point.

[Mr.House]

RageGT wrote...

As for the RPG "decline", I'd suggest you read this piece:


The New York Times review of The Witcher 2

But every once in a while a game arrives out of the blue that redefines expectations for an entire genre. A game like The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings. If you enjoy single-player role-playing games on PC, you simply must play The Witcher 2. Innovative, unflinchingly mature and richly imagined, it is driven by fascinating, finely nuanced characters navigating a fantasy world of dark political intrigue and ambiguous morals.

Yay.. eat that, infidels!

Sorry being forced to play a ugly male who makes me want to rip my hair out is not the way rpgs should be going.

[Mr.House]

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

No. Non modded Oblivion had a horrible story, characters, funky gameplay and was only pretty to look at. I'm still not convinced that Skyrims writting will be good. Unless you went to the future and played Skyrim.

[Cyberarmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All EA has ever cared about was getting profits when a game is released while they acted like cheap misers when the game itself was being developed.


This Christmas, I hope all of EA gets visited by 3 ghosts. Well, technically 4, but you get my point.

Hım i think after seeing ghosts, they will make a game of Christmas Carol...with more action combat (lol)

[Kilshrek]

Mr.House wrote...

Sorry being forced to play a ugly male who makes me want to rip my hair out is not the way rpgs should be going.

So... the option to play as Triss(or someone like her) and still doing the nasty with all those chicks in TW, along with all that combat, naturally, is the way to go? You won't find me disagreeing with the notion, but for many practical reasons Geralt makes a fine protagonist.

And I liked TW 1's liberal use of colourful language. Especially the stereotypical angry/drunk dwarf types.
Bioware! I demand future games have more cussing! Aria started a trend, let's not slow down here.

[Kilshrek]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

DA2 and ME2 are what RPGs need.  They're a refinement of what's good about RPGs... They keep the story, the characters, the action, and they flush the boring parts.  It's a big change to the forumla, so it's got some rough patches.  It shall get better.

Of these games, only one can really be taken seriously as an "RPG" as such. ME 2 is about as related to an RPG as a platypus is related to a duck.

Anyway you call DA 2 a refinement of what's good about RPG's, fair enough, though I'd go and say the exact opposite.

It removes the need for forethought and strategic thinking, you rush in to a fight, kill everything as quickly as possible(because they drop in all around you, multiple times), move on to the next fight.

It removes a good deal of that good old RPG thing called "consequence", because do tell, how many things you do in the game actually make a difference, and does anything you do ever come back and bite you in the soft bits? Whatshisface man, the one with the mad son. Hawke was real sorry for crossing him, yup.

It removes a great deal of player involvement(character customization, party gearing, and to some extent the way you fight and play the game) in exchange for a "tighter" story, something more involved and some other PR speak, but quite fails at making things coherent, with the infamous Act 3 a shining example of this. By comparison, Torment did most of these things, made a really long game of it(without the need to make a boss fight last 30 minutes, mind you) but was a very undervalued game, unfortunately. Where Hawke had minimal influence on the overall narrative, seeming to be as much a passenger throughout the game as the player was, the Nameless One was at the centre of everything, where choice most definitely had consequence.

With respect to consequence, the RPG-lite that is ME seems to do a great deal better in fact. I'm waiting to find out if sparing the Rachni queen is gonna end up being a bite in the soft bits.

But, refinement? I think not.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 24 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[KLUME777]

csfteeeer wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

*Cough* CD Projekt RED  *Cough*

As far as i know (and i don't), those games don't have the biggest sales (not that it's a bad game, just not a leader in sales). Bethesda are the biggest, the baddest and the best right now. I reckon they have now overtaken Bioware after DA2 release and the just recent E3

[KLUME777]

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

No. Non modded Oblivion had a horrible story, characters, funky gameplay and was only pretty to look at. I'm still not convinced that Skyrims writting will be good. Unless you went to the future and played Skyrim.

Bethesda doesn't have terrific writing, but they do make fantastic games. And i count Obsidion's New Vegas under Bethesda, so i get both.

[Mr.House]

KLUME777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

No. Non modded Oblivion had a horrible story, characters, funky gameplay and was only pretty to look at. I'm still not convinced that Skyrims writting will be good. Unless you went to the future and played Skyrim.

Bethesda doesn't have terrific writing, but they do make fantastic games. And i count Obsidion's New Vegas under Bethesda, so i get both.

By that logic NWN2 and KOTOR where under Bioware then.

Also non modded Oblivion was anything but good, modded and with the expansion, yes Oblivion was good, but base? No.

[Mr.House]

Kilshrek wrote...

So... the option to play as Triss(or someone like her) and still doing the nasty with all those chicks in TW, along with all that combat, naturally, is the way to go? You won't find me disagreeing with the notion, but for many practical reasons Geralt makes a fine protagonist.

And I liked TW 1's liberal use of colourful language. Especially the stereotypical angry/drunk dwarf types.
Bioware! I demand future games have more cussing! Aria started a trend, let's not slow down here.

To you maybe, I have hated Geralt since the books. It's old hate that is like a root that will never go away.

[Kilshrek]

Mr.House wrote...

To you maybe, I have hated Geralt since the books. It's old hate that is like a root that will never go away.

No grudge like an old grudge then. Since I've never read the books, I can't really comment. *shrug*

So you'd rather the ability to customise your protagonist in TW then?

[Salaya]

I think some people identifies the decline of a genre with game's quality. And I think they are misunderstanding things.

DA2 case has is own problems, and for reasons not only connected to the fact that it negates western rpg roots. I think it's a "ok" game, not brilliant, not horrible. It could have been greater, prettier and utterly brilliant, if not for the overstated reasons we all know. But thats not the point of my first post.

Im not saying that the decline of RPG as a genre will generate a plethora of bad games. I hope not! I wish the changes and potential innovations bring us great games (we have some examples in fact, like Mass effect 2 or, as most people say -I havent tried myself- TW2). But, frankly, I find difficult to deny that all those new installments on CRPG systematically "forget" the definitory elements of western CRPG. We have reached a point in wich is very difficult to state truthfully that these games are CRPGs (or at least, some of them).

All in all, I think the CRPG elements are there. We have stats, combats and growing characters. But little else. And, to make things worse (for the existence of CRPGs as themselves), production managers and such keep telling that viodegames need to find wider audiences. These situation is new, and differs from any other critical time for industry. And Im sure this will derive in the decline and unavoidable death for classic western CRPG. And that doesn't mean bad games!

EDIT:: And, of course, this is just my opinion, based solely on general impressions and exprience with genre for many, many years. When I make some categorical statements Im not saying thats the definitive truth, it's my personal feeling about this particular situation

Modifié par Salaya, 24 juin 2011 - 10:53 .

[Clangeddin86]

Ideas may be illimited as a whole, but if you consider a limited number of persons in a limited space and time, you are bound to run out of them sooner or later. This eventually leads, not just RPGs, but ALL genres to become repetitive for the niche who is not "addicted" to them.
Just look at western MMORPGs, everytime a new one comes out the first thing that casuals notice is "Oh, it looks like WoW". Then the usual argument about WoW= EQ, or "it's the same type of game, what do you expect" come out and the flame fest goes on, but whatever...

So, you either face the problem of "lack or originality", but you keep on improving the genre, by polishing it more and more. Or else you're gonna have to cut some RPG elements and make it less RPG and adding more action.
If you think about it, many other genres took something from RPGs as well, think about experience points in Pro Evolution Soccer for example, there is character development. And the same goes for many platform games.
So I suppose it's fair that the opposite happens as well.

[Perles75]

DA2 is not an action game but it definitely an action-RPG game.

In merit to the topic of the thread, one has always to be cautious when speaking about decline of this or that. It is true, however, that I don't see much space for old style RPG like, for example, The Bard's Tale, but this doesn't mean that the road is paved for action-rpgs like DA2, I think the attention for more classic RPG is still high, and there is always the place for a surprise title!

[Gunderic]

Mr.House wrote...

RageGT wrote...

As for the RPG "decline", I'd suggest you read this piece:


The New York Times review of The Witcher 2

But every once in a while a game arrives out of the blue that redefines expectations for an entire genre. A game like The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings. If you enjoy single-player role-playing games on PC, you simply must play The Witcher 2. Innovative, unflinchingly mature and richly imagined, it is driven by fascinating, finely nuanced characters navigating a fantasy world of dark political intrigue and ambiguous morals.

Yay.. eat that, infidels!

Sorry being forced to play a ugly male who makes me want to rip my hair out is not the way rpgs should be going.

I'm not sure why you'd interpret that quote as characters like Geralt "being the way to go" in future RPG's, as Geralt's name isn't even brought up there, but--

I don't see the problem in having more diverse protagonists in roleplaying games.  I can understand people not seeing the appeal in Geralt, but I also believe he's a nice change for the genre. 

Modifié par Gunderic, 24 juin 2011 - 12:11 .

[GodWood]

DP

Modifié par GodWood, 24 juin 2011 - 12:34 .