adlocutio wrote...
Ariella wrote...
SNIP
No one suggested translating AD&D into a binary system or making a cRPG out of it. I said it had good things we can take from it.
My point is they already did so (BG 1-2, PST, IWD) and those games had NONE of the features you mentioned but were hailed (well the first three anyway) as revolutionary. Skills are nice, but unless they add to the story, not an absolute. Hell, skills didn't come along in AD&D (or Non weapon proficiencies) didn't come around until Unearthed Arcana for 1st Ed.
When crafting originated in cRPGs is irrelevant. It's what people do in a real or fantasy world. So doing it in character is an expansion of roleplaying.
It's very relevant as old style games like Ultima or BG didn't have or need those kind of things to be fun or an RPG. As an adventurer, you're spending most of your time in the field, not in a smithy or a still room somewhere. In the TT games I played, most of this stuff was handled downtime, and not during regular sessions.
Crafting is not really needed, especially with the way DA2 handles the issue. It gives you the exploring factor
(finding reagents et al) while someone else does the work and you don't have to worry about having the skill to create the thing, just the recipe.
Stats in DA2 are only related to combat. That's it. They are abstractions for a combat mechanic. They have no lore-based in-world meaning. No one suggested using strength for inventory management. I suggested using stats in out of combat situations for roleplaying purposes. I suggested they be defined by an in-world relationship so that they contributed to roleplaying. As of DA2, stats do not contribute to roleplaying.
They also serve nas indicators for certain non-combat functions like open locks and disarm/detect traps, which was something you commented about earlier. And why should stats contribute to roleplay? It's one of the reasons I hated the concept of charisma in AD&D. Stats are specifically a mechanic that should stay behind the scenes and not be upfront.
All cRPGs I've played have economics. Mostly its a simple system of collecting gold and buying and selling things. In many cases you can craft and sell. That is the basis of all economy, you know. There's no reason it can't be expanded and be fun.
And you can't do this in DA2, why? Buying and selling are useful for two things: getting money one needs and getting items one needs. That's it. I don't find anything at all about economics all that fun. And see above about my comment on crafting.
You suggest that assuming a role is the same as storytelling. That's only true when it is a cooperative story being told by both the player and the DM or the game company. The less the player is involved in telling the story the less it can be called roleplaying.
Everything I mentioned (Stats, non-combat skills, economics, etc) enhances the player's interaction with the game world. Not having them reduces the player's interaction with the game world. Therefore the story is less cooperative. Therefore it is less of a roleplaying game.
All this assumes that the story REQUIRES those elements. I find conversation with npcs and companions more engaging than crafting a sword, and I find exploring old roads more fun that worrying about my stats.
In other words, assuming a role does not mean making some dialogue choices, choosing powers, and fighting in combat. Presumably your character does much, much more than that in the game world. The less control the player has over the PC, the less roleplaying there is.
Assuming a role is becoming the character and making choices for that character, bringing him or her to life.
I'm not arguing for overly-complicated micromanagement. In fact, if Bioware can't make non-combat skills and activities fun, they should keep working on it until they do. The problem is, if they can't make it fun then that is a failure on their part. I've had many experiences out of combat which I would consider fun, including in DA:O.
You think it's a failure, but that's not fact. Fact is, if it doesn't contribute to the story, it doesn't belong in game. DAO suffered from this: skills that really didn't factor into the story at all, side quests that were detatched from the main story. It gave the game, at points, a sluggishness that was out of character for what the story required.
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:D:D I totally disagree. ME2 and DA2 keep the best parts of RPGs (story/character/action) and they slice out the parts that bore me. We value different aspects of the game. I have to feel bad for BioWare. They're trying to make something we'll both like! 
:lol:
:)
