182 réponses à ce sujet

[foogoo]

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion was boring, lifeless, and repetative. They had like 3 people do the voice acting for all the npc's.The only thing good was graphics.

[RangerSG]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Crafting in both games is flawed. There, I said it! =P

No argument. But at least the PC could craft in DA:O. In DA2, it seems they decided letting players profit from their efforts would break the game, so they put in a artifice to keep that from happening. But in the process, they also took away any sense of achievement or reward from the system as well.

The best way to handle it is to make the cost up-front high enough so that the player can't just gather a few things, sit down for an hour and get rich. Whether that's making the alchemy equipment costly/rare, or making recipes something that have to be studied/learned by trial and error. Either way slows down the profitability while still making it rewarding to the player who truly desires to craft instead of just looking for a cheap way to break the game's economy.

[Bad King]

foogoo wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion was boring, lifeless, and repetative. They had like 3 people do the voice acting for all the npc's.The only thing good was graphics.

Still far far superior to Dragon Age 2. Also I didn't find it boring, lifeless, or repetative- my main qualm with it was the bad leveling system and (as you said) the reused voice actors. But I'd rather 3 voice actors than 3 dungeons reused over and over and over again.

Modifié par Bad King, 25 juin 2011 - 07:45 .

[Gotholhorakh]

foogoo wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion was boring, lifeless, and repetative. They had like 3 people do the voice acting for all the npc's.The only thing good was graphics.

Oblivion was fairly boring, lifeless and repetitive, NPC interaction was garbage, voice acting and models for NPCs were laughable, and every character was great at everything making every choice about your build completely inconsequential (although this last one is because it's TES, not because it's bad).

Despite that it was still > DA2 for me. By miles.

[RangerSG]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

foogoo wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion was boring, lifeless, and repetative. They had like 3 people do the voice acting for all the npc's.The only thing good was graphics.

Oblivion was fairly boring, lifeless and repetitive, NPC interaction was garbage, voice acting and models for NPCs were laughable, and every character was great at everything making every choice about your build completely inconsequential (although this last one is because it's TES, not because it's bad).

Despite that it was still > DA2 for me. By miles.

The "every character is great at everything" wasn't nearly as true in Morrowind. Not to mention you didn't have everything in the game leveling with the PC.

[foogoo]

Bad King wrote...

foogoo wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion was boring, lifeless, and repetative. They had like 3 people do the voice acting for all the npc's.The only thing good was graphics.

Still far far superior to Dragon Age 2. Also I didn't find it boring, lifeless, or repetative- my main qualm with it was the bad leveling system and (as you said) the reused voice actors. But I'd rather 3 voice actors than 3 dungeons reused over and over and over again.

Leveling was bad, you had to put stuff on minor skills so you won't level up too fast from major skills. Oblivion dungeons where nice but very unrewarding when you explore them. You get like 10 gold per dungeon and maybe kill the usual skeleton, rat, or thug netting 10XP. Might as well not explore dungeons unless they were quest related.

Gotholhorakh wrote...

foogoo wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion
was boring, lifeless, and repetative. They had like 3 people do the
voice acting for all the npc's.The only thing good was graphics.

Oblivion
was fairly boring, lifeless and repetitive, NPC interaction was
garbage, voice acting and models for NPCs were laughable, and every
character was great at everything making every choice about your build
completely inconsequential (although this last one is because it's TES,
not because it's bad).

Despite that it was still > DA2 for me. By miles.

You may be right but I wouldn't say miles, I'd say inches.

Modifié par foogoo, 25 juin 2011 - 08:32 .

[Foolsfolly]

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

HA! BioWare in decline? Not as long as the Mass Effect series is going. They're doing great stuff with Mass Effect.

They've just stalled with Dragon Age.

[Sidney]

erynnar wrote...

No, you confuse complexity with tedium...see what I did there? Because it is an opinion. Your opinion vs the opposing opinions. Neither is right or wrong.

And you are the loudest whiner here with your silly assumption that opinion means fact. Your arguments are silly and insulting to those that might otherwise have a reasoned debate with you.

It borders on trolling along with the petulent insults to those who don't agree with you.

I love that people who just want an echo chamber for their beliefs get so consistently bent out of shape when people challenge their beliefs - expecially when they try and wrap themselves in a big blanket of smug superiority. I'm sure you are busy chastizing everyone who talks about "dumbing down", "console kiddies" and other haughty inflated opinions of their gaming preferences...oh wait, you aren't.

[Sidney]

Bad King wrote...
Still far far superior to Dragon Age 2. Also I didn't find it boring, lifeless, or repetative- my main qualm with it was the bad leveling system and (as you said) the reused voice actors. But I'd rather 3 voice actors than 3 dungeons reused over and over and over again.

Oblviion is, like everything by Bethesa, a terrible game. They make what look to be fasinating games but in the end create a dead sandbox.

The plots don't exist. You can do a ton of things in Bethesa's worlds but why? Their games are large scale single player grinding at their worst. Bethesda is the RPG for WoW players when their internet is down.

Their leveling system is awful. The fact that you need a guide to know how to level is a problem. Worse, anytime you have entire guides built to tell you how not to level things are really messed up.

Their combat is painful and dull. First person melee combat might be the worst thing this side of another Adam Sandler movie.

Player Character skills don't matter as much as player skills. Too many things (aiming your bow, timing sword and shield strikes, lockpicking) are about how good you the player are and not how good your player character is.

Now I'll atack what most folks think Bethesda does well, the wordls they build.

The worlds are small (part I). How far from the Imperial City to
almost anywhere? 5 minutes tops? Bioware gets away with what they do by
not slapping you in the face with the fact that travel is 5 minutes away by only showing you bits of the world. The whole world being on the maps makes it seem really, really tiny no matter how proud they are of how big their maps are. We just don't have the tech to make it right. LA Noire of AC are set in one city but both seem so much bigger than anything Bethesda does.

The
worlds are small (part 2). The worlds make no sense because you have a
Farm south of Chorall 10 meters from a dungeon of awful things that
never seem to bother them. Explain how Girdershade exists in a wasteland
loaded with more than enough awful things to overrun the 3 people who
live there. Awful design.

Obsidian with FNV blew away anything Bethesda has done by hanging enough of a plot onto the game and then using the SPECIAL system and not the Betheda leveling system.

[erynnar]

Sidney wrote...

erynnar wrote...

No, you confuse complexity with tedium...see what I did there? Because it is an opinion. Your opinion vs the opposing opinions. Neither is right or wrong.

And you are the loudest whiner here with your silly assumption that opinion means fact. Your arguments are silly and insulting to those that might otherwise have a reasoned debate with you.

It borders on trolling along with the petulent insults to those who don't agree with you.

I love that people who just want an echo chamber for their beliefs get so consistently bent out of shape when people challenge their beliefs - expecially when they try and wrap themselves in a big blanket of smug superiority. I'm sure you are busy chastizing everyone who talks about "dumbing down", "console kiddies" and other haughty inflated opinions of their gaming preferences...oh wait, you aren't.

Um please find any post of mine where I called anyone a console kiddie or a fanbois. Please, do. In fact, I have done nothing but defend people against being called those names. But it if it helps you sleep at night and feel better about yourself, who am I to deny someone so desperate for their own ego gratification?

As to the echo chamber and blanket of superiority? Well, you must enjoy the sound of your own voice echoing back and it is truly surprising you don't choke on your own blanket.

I don't have a problem with people liking the game. I have no problem with opinions different from my own. What you fail to be able to differentiate from is opinion vs fact. Your looking down your nose while stating your opinions are what I find trollish, not the opinions themselves. On those we can agree to disagree.

And now I leave you with your blankie, your mirror, and your echo chamber. You seem to delight in yourself most of all.

[John Epler]

Let's try to cut out the back-and-forth pettiness and bring this back on topic. This applies to both sides of the fence.

[erynnar]

JohnEpler wrote...

Let's try to cut out the back-and-forth pettiness and bring this back on topic. This applies to both sides of the fence.

I  game!

[Ronin2006]

DA 2 doesn't mark the decline of the CRPG genre, if anything it just marks the decline of the company behind it.

So long as a sizeable number of gamers continue to support the CRPG genre, there will be a market for it and potential profits to be made from it, and thus the genre will continue to exist.  We have seen the fan reaction and sales to The Witcher 2, and the hype train behind Skyrim continues to gather momentum, indicating that the market for such RPGs is hardly dwindling.  (You don't have to like either game, but it would be foolish to deny that their existence shows that the RPG genre is alive and well, and that a lot of non-console gamers stand behind them)

The genre does of course need to adapt and evolve in order to remain relevant, but this appears to be where Dragon Age 2 failed.  It didn't naturally evolve the genre in line with the expectations of a significant part of the fanbase and instead headed in another direction towards other genres and styles, and in the end lost part of it's identity, and whether the game can even considered to be an RPG has become questionable.  It certainly possesses a lot less in common with traditional CRPGs than the Witcher 2 and Skyrim.

To me, the Witcher 2 and Skyrim appear to be more of an evolution of the genre catered towards that audience that Dragon Age 2 drew criticism from.  That audience is of course the RPG audience, and they don't seem to be going anywhere, nor do their numbers seem to be diminishing.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 26 juin 2011 - 04:44 .

[Harid]

It's probably already been said, but CRPG's have been on the decline for some time. That's if you mean rpg's that play like Baldur's Gate do.

In this AAA gen, it doesn't unfortunately make fiscal sense to put a lot of money or time into old school rpgs like that, and conversely, devs are too stupid to release similar games with less budget on PSN/XBL, probably because they would have problems charging 60 bucks for it. This isn't their fault, though, because gamers in general have been conditioned to treat PSN/XBL releases as being lesser games than a regular release.

So we all suffer.

I expect this thread to degrade into console versus pc wars though, because someone's gotta take the blame.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[Sutekh]

Sidney wrote...

Bethesda is the RPG for WoW players when their internet is down.

Assuming much? I love TES. I've played all of them. I hate WoW and any kind of MMORPG whatsoever. I'd rather be tied in a chair and forced to play Duke Nukem Forever till the end of times Clockwork Orange style while listening to a techno remix of Justin Bieber than play WoW. That's how much I hate it.

(But I don't despise WoW players, or DNF ones, contrary to what you seem to do)

I won't discuss the rest of your post, because you apparently think it's pure facts. No point discussing "pure facts". Gravity exists, arachnids have eight legs, Oblivion is a terrible game (Yes, one of these things is not like the other).

Three points though:

"Bethesda" isn't an RPG. It's a company. When you bash something, at least, be accurate. As it is, I'm not sure what you're talking about, or whether you've actually played other TES titles than Oblivion.

I never needed a guide to level in Oblivion (Seriously? A guide?). The system wasn't the best, I didn't like it, but I managed, just like everyone I know. My son was able to manage as well when he was twelve.

Comparing Oblivion to DA2 is like comparing apples to oranges, in my opinion.

Anyway, don't mind me. I'll carry on loving TES and DA, with their flaws and qualities, and I'll probably buy them, because there are more to games than combat systems, levelling and bleeding world size.

[Realmzmaster]

Is the audience for CRPGs growing? If the pie is not growing then every company who makes CRPgs is fighting for the same pie. Is there enough of an audience to sustain the genre? If you are not attracting new players what happens? Lack of new players will cause the decline of the genre more so than anything else.

There are indie developers that are doing a good job. Basilisk games with Eschalon I & II comes to mind. Both games have turn-based combat with weight, food and water requirements. The graphics are quite serviceable The games have an old school feel but use some modern ideas like mini map and the ability to quick travel to different points in areas already explored.

The genre is not dying. The genre is changing. Just as it changed before. There will be developers who fill the niche as long as there is a niche to be filled and profit to be made.

[Sidney]

Sutekh wrote...

I won't discuss the rest of your post, because you apparently think it's pure facts. No point discussing "pure facts". Gravity exists, arachnids have eight legs, Oblivion is a terrible game (Yes, one of these things is not like the other).

Three points though:

"Bethesda" isn't an RPG. It's a company. When you bash something, at least, be accurate. As it is, I'm not sure what you're talking about, or whether you've actually played other TES titles than Oblivion.

I never needed a guide to level in Oblivion (Seriously? A guide?). The system wasn't the best, I didn't like it, but I managed, just like everyone I know. My son was able to manage as well when he was twelve.

Comparing Oblivion to DA2 is like comparing apples to oranges, in my opinion.

Anyway, don't mind me. I'll carry on loving TES and DA, with their flaws and qualities, and I'll probably buy them, because there are more to games than combat systems, levelling and bleeding world size.

So wait, your post is an opinion, mine is full of facts? Again, people hate having their opinions questioned and have to resort to this stuff. Is it really necessary to preface all comments with "In my opinion..." so people understand that?

Bethesda makes RPG's and they are known for a more specific style of RPG - the open world/sandbox model.  Their recent games from Morrowwind to Fallout 3 share a consistent set of flaws that are really only alleviated partially by the use of SPECIAL in FO3 - and bless them for keeping SPECIAL which is IN MY OPINION the best cRPG skill/leveling system. Better?

Seriously, go search out the leveling guides for Oblivion they are out there and quite detailed.

Oblivion and DA2 are apples and ornages but then again any of the Bethesda games are apples and oranges to the Bioware games since BG2. Bethesda gives you a world and let's you play. Bioware gives you a story to play. Different focus.

As I said, there is a lot more to a game than the game mechanics. I generally hate game mechanics getting in my way and the Bethesda games do a great job of letting mechanics get in the way but in the end the lack of plot and character is what kills those games for me because they are just about combat, looting and leveling. Bethesda games being single player grindfests.

[KLUME777]

simfamSP wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

No. Non modded Oblivion had a horrible story, characters, funky gameplay and was only pretty to look at. I'm still not convinced that Skyrims writting will be good. Unless you went to the future and played Skyrim.

I have to agree. Oblivion wasn't a terribly good game. In almost every aspect, it was inferior to its predecessor, Morrowind. I'll wait to see how Skyrim PLAYS (not looks) before I make a judgment.

That said, the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion was wickedly fun. Lucian Lachance was quite possibly the best character BethSoft has ever written. He'd only be an above-average Bioware NPC. But he was definitely memorable, quite possibly the ONLY NPC I remember from Oblivion who wasn't voiced by a famous actor who mailed in his lines.

Morrowind, I still remember Caius, Vivec, Shegorath, Almalexia and Azura (and I remember crying when they changed the voice of Azura for Oblivion too).

E3 gameplay, about 8 minutes of pure 360 gameplay (which means PC will play even better, Todd Howard confirmed). It definitely looks amazing.

Or that it's a console game. And is developed primarily through the consoles.

And so was DA2, but Todd Howard confirmed that the PC version will look and play better.

[Salaya]

Ronin2006 wrote...

DA 2 doesn't mark the decline of the CRPG genre, if anything it just marks the decline of the company behind it.

Yes, I agree with that -but not with the decline of Bioware. To summarize: I think DA2 is a perfect example of the western CRPG genre's decline. Maybe Bioware could develop great games in the future (I think they have developed brilliant ones in the inmediate past, as Mass effect 2), but what is clear to me is that those games wouldn't be CRPGs.

...

To me, the Witcher 2 and Skyrim appear to be more of an evolution of the genre catered towards that audience that Dragon Age 2 drew criticism from.  That audience is of course the RPG audience, and they don't seem to be going anywhere, nor do their numbers seem to be diminishing.

I'm afraid I haven't played TW2 (I never like the first one, so the sequel didn't draw mi attention). For what I've heard, they have simplified lots of things, cuting out many CRPG elements. Note that I don't know if thats true, but if that's the case, I think that would give some ammunition to my apocaliptic prediction of no-more-CRPGs And, besides, most people say TW2 is a great game, very well received and criticized -so, as I said many times in this thread, the hypotetical decline of CRPGs does not imply the existence of bad games.

[KLUME777]

Sidney wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

We agree on that. I enjoyed DA2, I liked it a lot, I still have a good time playing it. But I would have prefered it less streamlined and more complex, and with more diversity everywhere. I would've liked additions instead of substractions, when compared to DAO. I then would have loved it. 

You people continue to confuse tedium with complexity. Crafting in DAO wasn't "complex". Let us review this complex mechanism

1. Buy alchemy 2. Find/buy ingredients 3. Open Menu/Push button 4. Item added to inventory

Wow, a lot of thought and energy went into that. Gosh that makes me feel like I'm really crafting something. Now the DA2 method of potion aquisition

1.Find/buy ingredient 2. Open Menu/Push button 3. Item added to inventory

So basically to shut all of you people up about streamlining if you clicked "alchemy" as a skill and we called the "Order Potions" spot a "Workbench". You'd stop whining? Do people even see how silly they sound making these arguments?

Asthetics plays an element to. I feel much more immersed and it's more interesting to me that i'm actually creating the potions rather than ordering it.

[KLUME777]

foogoo wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion DA2 was boring, lifeless, and repetative.The only thing good was graphics < Hell no, not even.

Fix'd

[KLUME777]

Foolsfolly wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Well, Skyrim is still there, but yes, i think Bioware are going about there own decline. I think Bethesda have overtaken them and are now the king of WRPG"s.

HA! BioWare in decline? Not as long as the Mass Effect series is going. They're doing great stuff with Mass Effect.

They've just stalled with Dragon Age.

Just look at how Skyrim went at E3. There are a few people on the internet that talk of ME3, but Skyrim was the highlight of the show, even overshadowing MW3. Skyrim is way more popular than ME3, and in my opinion,  it's probably going to be a better game anyway. I like the Mass Effect series, but not a great deal, and Skyrim is the game im looking forward to most this year. DAO was my favourite game by Bioware this generation, but they crashed that train to the ground now.

[Persephone]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

foogoo wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Oblivion wasn't perfect but still far far superior to Dragon Age 2.

Oblivion was boring, lifeless, and repetative. They had like 3 people do the voice acting for all the npc's.The only thing good was graphics.

Oblivion was fairly boring, lifeless and repetitive, NPC interaction was garbage, voice acting and models for NPCs were laughable, and every character was great at everything making every choice about your build completely inconsequential (although this last one is because it's TES, not because it's bad).

Despite that it was still > DA2 for me. By miles.

Really NOT. At all. Esp. after Morrowind. Vanilla/Unmodded Oblivion is my least fave RPG. Ever.

[MorrigansLove]

Oblivion is so much better than DA2.

[ForgeDark]

I made the mistake of getting Oblivion on Xbox rather than PC, so I just spend my time frustrated that I can't aim spells properly (I don't play consoles much). My character became a vampire, which I didn't intend to happen, I just wasn't paying much attention. The rest of the game was pretty much ruined for me because the quest to stop being a vampire is excessively dull and time consuming. So yeah, I never finished even the main quest from that game (then again, the main quest was hardly an engaging storyline - never understood why my character was the one to save everyone)

So yeah - both dragon ages are much better I wish more rpgs had party combat, I find it much more fun and also more realistic story wise. I would never travel around trying to save the world by myself...

Modifié par eyeofhorus87, 26 juin 2011 - 11:51 .