106 réponses à ce sujet

[Eurhetemec]

Barring straight-up indoctrination, that is...

Cerberus is militantly pro-human. They will do anything to further humanity. Literally anything. See all the vile experiments, tricks, lies and so on in ME1/2.

The Reapers have examined the galaxy circa ME3, and they feel that the race best suited to becoming Reapers are the humans. We only learn this right at the end of ME2.

Reapers the at the top of the food-chain, species-wise. They have never been seriously defeated, not in what seems to be at least 37 million years.

Here's what I'm thinking.

TIM finds out (along with Shepard) at the end of ME3, that the Reapers want to make humanity into human-Reapers. To make them "part of the club". Part of the winning team. To him, and perhaps to many in Cerberus, this might well be seen as "furthering humanity". All the other races have been judged and found wanting (it seems). Only the humans are special. Only the humans are being offered a chance to joining the galactic space-gods.

They certainly don't want to destroy humanity entirely. This is obvious from their behaviour in ME2 and even in ME3's trailers, where they are carefully smashing up human cities, rather than "nuking the site from orbit" or "dropping a rock on it", which would take 1/1000th the time and effort.

So even without indoctrination, Cerberus and TIM's ultra-militant pro-human stance, if taken to it's logical extreme, would make them potentially side with the Reapers. Hence BioWare saying "Shepards thinks that Cerberus is indoctrinated". Indeed, many in Cerberus might be - not everyone will think being ground into human-juice and made into a Reaper is a good plan! But some would - certainly the leadership and TIM seem likely to think that.

This may even have been the plan the whole time in ME2, though I think it's more likely that TIM only realized it fully when the human-Reaper appeared (he probably suspected before then, though).

As TIM is a control-freak, he no-doubt wants to try and control the situation and the terms in which humanity gets made into Reapers, and wiping out the Collectors gave him a way in there, too. Presumably he's been told that helping the Reapers to take over will also help.

Any gaping holes in this idea, or just disbelief that Cerberus would go so far?

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 23 juin 2011 - 07:06 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Nope, TIM yearns for human ascension and one can't become much more than a mechanical cthulu from beyond the stars.

[Eurhetemec]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nope, TIM yearns for human ascension and one can't become much more than a mechanical cthulu from beyond the stars.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Also your username is strangely appropriate to this discussion lol.

[marshalleck]

I'm not sure TIM's ambition goes so far as to include "ceasing to be human." He's very much in favor of permanent human dominance in the galaxy, or at least for as long as possible, but he also committed almost all of Cerberus's vast resources to bringing Shepard back and continuing the fight against the Reapers in ME2. This just smells to me likely a poorly executed character reversal in order to have a villain for ME3, if it is in fact what's going on.

Also, how does his backstory from the comics play with this idea? I haven't read them, but as I understand it some of his experiences with Reaper tech give him some unique insight into their goals, and it's one of his main motivations for starting Cerberus to safeguard humanity.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 juin 2011 - 07:13 .

[Il Divo]

marshalleck wrote...

Also, how does his backstory from the comics play with this idea? I haven't read them, but as I understand it some of his experiences with Reaper tech give him some unique insight into their goals, and it's one of his main motivations for starting Cerberus to safeguard humanity.

While I can't really answer your question, for myself I can say that I would have no problem with Bioware ignoring the comics altogether, given what I've heard about them.

Edit: As for the OP's post, it would take a good bit of narrative to iron out all the details, but I think it's one of the better ideas that has been put forward as to why Cerberus has allied with the Reapers so suddenly.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 juin 2011 - 07:16 .

[Ahriman]

marshalleck wrote...
Also, how does his backstory from the comics play with this idea? I haven't read them, but as I understand it some of his experiences with Reaper tech give him some unique insight into their goals, and it's one of his main motivations for starting Cerberus to safeguard humanity.

After contact with relic TIM saw usual Reaper trailer aka "We are coming, you are doomed" and all that stuff. He also got knowledge of alien languages.

[JimiShep]

The Illusive Man will be the final boss! He could be potentially behind a lot of whats going on.
I really hope that he doesn't just side with the Reapers or against Shep for anything less than an epic plot twist....

[Aedan_Cousland]

I think it is going to be no more complicated than Reaper indoctrination.

Most likely caused by yet another failed Cerberus experiment, with tech they probably shouldn't have been playing with. ME2  was a great game, but one thing it lacked was a charismatic villian like Saren. Perhaps TIM is going to be the Saren of ME3?

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 23 juin 2011 - 07:34 .

[Eurhetemec]

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not sure TIM's ambition goes so far as to include "ceasing to be human." He's very much in favor of permanent human dominance in the galaxy, or at least for as long as possible, but he also committed almost all of Cerberus's vast resources to bringing Shepard back and continuing the fight against the Reapers in ME2. This just smells to me likely a poorly executed character reversal in order to have a villain for ME3, if it is in fact what's going on.

I understand what you're saying, but look at Cerberus experiments.

Virtually all of them revolve around one of two things:

a) Attempting mind-control.

 Trying to become more-than-human.

(or both at once lol!)

Also look at TIM himself. He appears to be a cyborg (certainly cyber-eyes, at the very least) - so he's already "beyond human" in some ways. For him to envision becoming further beyond human seems logical. It's possible the situation is somewhat similar to Saren, in that the Reapers exploit his natural inclinations in order to subtly indoctrinate him, but I suspect he's probably found an indoctrination-proof or cure for himself, and is just going along because he thinks it's a good idea (or was promised he could "form the head" of a human-Reaper lol).

I mean, let's look at some Cerberus experiments:

1) Overlord - They created a transhuman VI - a human mind in control but vastly more powerful than any human could be. The stated goal was to mind-control the Geth, but clearly there was more to it, and the end result was certainly "beyond human" in many ways.

2) Lazarus - Bringing a man back from the dead, and making them much more than human (Shepard is a fairly serious cyborg in ME2). That's certainly going "beyond human".

3) Jack - Attempting to create a biotic more powerful than any other - of indeed almost god-like power. Certainly the goal is a "beyond human" goal. Introducing biotics to humans in general seems to be a "beyond human" idea, and Cerberus have always been involved with it (since they formed).

4) Rachni - No "beyond human" element, just attempted, failed, mind-control.

5) Akuze - Seems to be an attempt to see how far you can push humans, how much they can become, by putting them up against the toughest predator in the universe, the Tresher Maw. So "beyond human" or at least "human max" goals.

6) Chasca - Husks released to "see what happens". Data-gathering from this would lead towards "beyond-human" goals.

7) Thorian Creepers - Mind-control experimentation, essentially.

8) EDI - Attempt to control an AI, despite the difficulty inherent to doing so - Mind-control a theme again, plus EDI could potentially be a prototype for "uploading" a human mind or the like.

And so on.

Methods Cerberus finds acceptable - even when it does them to humans:

A) Murder - including mass-murder of civilians.
Torture - including of children.
C) Poisoning.
D) Kidnapping/slavery.
E) Releasing dangerous living weapons (not rachni - husks).
F) Outright mind-control.
G) Spying.
H) Lying and propaganda.

Honestly, they have a lot in common with the Reapers.

You say it would be a face-heel turn, but I totally disagree. TIM is a heel through and through. Regarding him as anything else, even as a pure Renegade, is delusional. He's on your side because you superficially have the same goals, not because ultimately you do.

He denies knowledge of the worst Cerberus experiments, but at the same time, he was in contact with all of them. So what he essentially has is "plausible deniability". I'm sure he didn't literally know what was happening on Pragia, but that was his choice not to know, I'd suggest. He could have found out.

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 23 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[Omega Torsk]

At first, I thought indoctrination because it seemed to come right out of left field. However, since I watched the demos at E3, I'm beginning to thing that TIM has either accepted Saren's viewpoint that the galaxy is doomed no matter how much you try to fight it, so you might as well prove yourself useful or the OP's theory; that TIM now believes that the best thing for humanity would be to become one with these monsters.

I wonder what TIM's boss battle would be like. Would we be able to talk TIM into accepting our viewpoint, like with Saren, or will we end up fighting him in a giant mech suit?

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 23 juin 2011 - 07:55 .

[Eurhetemec]

Omega Torsk wrote...

I wonder what TIM's boss battle would be like. Would we be able to talk TIM into accepting our viewpoint, like with Saren, or will we end up fighting him in a giant mech suit?

It's a good question. I imagine it'll be the latter - I mean, I hope not, I love Evangelion and so on, but that's not the way Shepard should be fighting bosses - but it does seem likely.

I would bet that speech could be used to weaken him or make the fight easier, though, or perhaps skip a section (which is essentially all it did in ME1).

[Purge the heathens]

It could be... partial indoctrination! There's no need for the entire organization to be indoctrinated. The TIM that's after you might really just be the new, indoctrinated IM who took over, while good old TIM is on the run or something. Nah, probably wrong here.

Though, I'd be pretty disappointed if TIM was in it for the chance of reaperization. That says to me "Hey, you! Transhumanism is bad, got it?" Not a message to my liking. Maybe it's once again the same as with Saren and the Shadow Broker: cooperate and maybe some people will be spared.

[JimiShep]

Most likely TIM will get spared and the rest of the galaxy goes... if the reapers somehow persuaded him I believe it would only be to his own personal gain not that of humanity.

What would they use to persuade TIM to switch sides?

[Cutlass Jack]

I think Cerberus just heard about the Reaper's excellent Dental plan and retirement package.

[JimiShep]

lol I don't think you need to worry about dental when you are metaled down into liquid goo made for a reaper and a retirement package..... eternity does sound nice

[Sakanade]

Eurhetemec wrote...

Barring straight-up indoctrination, that is...

Cerberus is militantly pro-human. They will do anything to further humanity. Literally anything. See all the vile experiments, tricks, lies and so on in ME1/2.

The Reapers have examined the galaxy circa ME3, and they feel that the race best suited to becoming Reapers are the humans. We only learn this right at the end of ME2.

Reapers the at the top of the food-chain, species-wise. They have never been seriously defeated, not in what seems to be at least 37 million years.

Here's what I'm thinking.

TIM finds out (along with Shepard) at the end of ME3, that the Reapers want to make humanity into human-Reapers. To make them "part of the club". Part of the winning team. To him, and perhaps to many in Cerberus, this might well be seen as "furthering humanity". All the other races have been judged and found wanting (it seems). Only the humans are special. Only the humans are being offered a chance to joining the galactic space-gods.

They certainly don't want to destroy humanity entirely. This is obvious from their behaviour in ME2 and even in ME3's trailers, where they are carefully smashing up human cities, rather than "nuking the site from orbit" or "dropping a rock on it", which would take 1/1000th the time and effort.

So even without indoctrination, Cerberus and TIM's ultra-militant pro-human stance, if taken to it's logical extreme, would make them potentially side with the Reapers. Hence BioWare saying "Shepards thinks that Cerberus is indoctrinated". Indeed, many in Cerberus might be - not everyone will think being ground into human-juice and made into a Reaper is a good plan! But some would - certainly the leadership and TIM seem likely to think that.

This may even have been the plan the whole time in ME2, though I think it's more likely that TIM only realized it fully when the human-Reaper appeared (he probably suspected before then, though).

As TIM is a control-freak, he no-doubt wants to try and control the situation and the terms in which humanity gets made into Reapers, and wiping out the Collectors gave him a way in there, too. Presumably he's been told that helping the Reapers to take over will also help.

Any gaping holes in this idea, or just disbelief that Cerberus would go so far?

This pretty much sums up the entire Cerberus side-plot in ME3.

Good post!

[Warkupo]

There's plenty of clues to indicate that TIM has been working for the Reapers from the start, if you look for them with the mindset this his goals align parallel to theirs. In general, pretending to fight against the Reapers is a pretty good cover story for being directly involved in almost everything they are doing.

[Scorpion1O1]

I'm simply convinced that TIM has been indoctrinated since ME2. For the weak simple reason of his eyes are the same as Saren's. He has been slowly being indocrinated and by the third game he is past the threshold. Though, good theory in any case. I just think TIM has been indoctrinated into believing what you stated. Similar to how the Doctor in the Arrival DLC worshiped the Reapers, though she never actually communicated with them as Saren did same goes with TIM. I think if you saved the Human Reaper you have 1,001 Reapers to kill in ME3 not 1,000.

[JimiShep]

What if everyone has been indoctrinated from the beginning and only now Shepard is becoming an annoyance!

[Bad King]

Wizz wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Also, how does his backstory from the comics play with this idea? I haven't read them, but as I understand it some of his experiences with Reaper tech give him some unique insight into their goals, and it's one of his main motivations for starting Cerberus to safeguard humanity.

After contact with relic TIM saw usual Reaper trailer aka "We are coming, you are doomed" and all that stuff. He also got knowledge of alien languages.

Thus TIM will be Lord Denethor 2.0.

[Admoniter]

Because the thought the the Reapers would merely string you along till you have outrun your usefulness would never occur to the galaxies most cynical man. Hell even if you truly believed that the Reapers would leave you alone while they skull**** everybody else in the galaxy, you have to realize that sooner or later they will not need you anymore and then what? YOu go your seperate ways? I don't think so.

[hwf]

In ME2, and in the ME:Evolution comics, the Illusive Man comes across as someone who wants to turn over every rock, look in every nook and cranny and analyse every piece of obscure technology out there, tools that can and must be mastered to "ensure Human dominance".
I would really like to believe The Illusive Man is not indoctrinated - despite ME:Evolution giving a trivial explanation for it.

But, if TIM were to ensure that Humanity joins the god club, we'd be equals to the rest of the Reapers.
It's similar to being part of the Council, not being the Council.

How does that work out?

[Travie]

Anyone else just imagine OP 'realizing why cerberus might side with the reapers' while on the can, then running to the computer?

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Eurhetemec wrote...

1) Overlord - They created a transhuman VI - a human mind in control but vastly more powerful than any human could be. The stated goal was to mind-control the Geth, but clearly there was more to it, and the end result was certainly "beyond human" in many ways.[/quote]Overlord was never pursued as a 'next step of humanity' project: even the hybrid VI concept was more or less something Archer threw together at the last minute, without TIM's input. Overlord was a typical 'influence Geth' proposal not even intended for a hybrid-existence (the existence of which wasn't something TIM learned until afterward).

[quote]
2) Lazarus - Bringing a man back from the dead, and making them much more than human (Shepard is a fairly serious cyborg in ME2). That's certainly going "beyond human".[/quote]Er, no. The implants were minimized as much as possible, because the Lazarus goal was to 'bring Shepard back just as (s)he was before", which was human. Implants were a necessity to approach that goal, not the goal in and of themselves.

Implants and upgrades Shepard installs afterwards were entirely Shepards own.
[quote]
3) Jack - Attempting to create a biotic more powerful than any other - of indeed almost god-like power. Certainly the goal is a "beyond human" goal. Introducing biotics to humans in general seems to be a "beyond human" idea, and Cerberus have always been involved with it (since they formed).[/quote]This is taking 'beyond human' to, ironically, incredibly unreasonable definitions. There's nothing god-like about Jack, nor non-Human about Human biotics: biotics are a natural exposure to E-zero, and is simply a conditional response like a sunburn.

[quote]
5) Akuze - Seems to be an attempt to see how far you can push humans, how much they can become, by putting them up against the toughest predator in the universe, the Tresher Maw. So "beyond human" or at least "human max" goals.[/quote]You have no idea what the Akuze experiments were intended to do or what they were for. You have no grounds to make a position that 'see how far you can push humans' was ever even an aspect.
[quote]
6) Chasca - Husks released to "see what happens". Data-gathering from this would lead towards "beyond-human" goals.[/quote]You have no evidence Cerberus was even behind or responsible for Chasca, let alone what they might have attempted with it.

The only definite Cerberus research we know of was involved with the canon-fodder soldier project of ME1.

[quote]
7) Thorian Creepers - Mind-control experimentation, essentially.[/quote]Thorian Creepers have no minds.
[quote]
8) EDI - Attempt to control an AI, despite the difficulty inherent to doing so - Mind-control a theme again, [/quote]That's not mind control. It's capability limitation: the difference is that between mental domination and handcuffs.

[quote]plus EDI could potentially be a prototype for "uploading" a human mind or the like.[/quote]Nothing at all suggests that. EDI is a standard Blue Box AI with special equipment.


[quote]
Methods Cerberus finds acceptable - even when it does them to humans:

A) Murder - including mass-murder of civilians.
Torture - including of children.
C) Poisoning.
D) Kidnapping/slavery.
E) Releasing dangerous living weapons (not rachni - husks).
F) Outright mind-control.
G) Spying.
H) Lying and propaganda.

Honestly, they have a lot in common with the Reapers.[/quote]You just made a list that includes most governments that have existed in history. The gap between, say, the history of the United States of America and the Reapers should be obvious.

You know what really defines the Reapers, distinct from everyone else? Omnigenocidal tendencies.

[quote]You say it would be a face-heel turn, but I totally disagree. TIM is a heel through and through. Regarding him as anything else, even as a pure Renegade, is delusional. He's on your side because you superficially have the same goals, not because ultimately you do.[/quote]You've rather amply demonstrated why you're no expert on objectivity yourself.

[quote]
He denies knowledge of the worst Cerberus experiments, but at the same time, he was in contact with all of them. So what he essentially has is "plausible deniability". I'm sure he didn't literally know what was happening on Pragia, but that was his choice not to know, I'd suggest. [/quote]*Citation needed.
[quote]
He could have found out.[/quote]He did find out... after Jack escaped. And then he shut down the Project, hard.
[/quote

[Sister Helen]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I think Cerberus just heard about the Reaper's excellent Dental plan and retirement package.

And don't forget the opportunity for promotion!  Cerberus is constantly losing middle-management to small arms fire.