106 réponses à ce sujet

[Nicodemus]

I just get the feeling that if TIM has sided with the reapers he is doing so to lead what will remain of the Human race after the Reapers have done what they are here to do. If the Human race is so useful, I don't expect the Reapers to totally destroy them, but I do expect them to repurpose survivors into something they can use in the future (see Protheans and Keepers). That however takes time so someone has to lead the survivors while the Reapers fiddle with their DNA etc.

[Kaiser Shepard]

TIM will play every card he has to make sure he comes out on top. Just like how the Shadow Broker took Saren's place as most valuable 'minion', TIM will take his. And when the time is right, he will attempt to destroy or dominate his new machine masters.

[The_11thDoctor]

Did no one here read/ listen to any of the books? No one? Indoctrinated the illusive one? Had to be. Tim went as far as to start making human reaper hybrids to learn how to fight them and bit off more than he could chew, but didnt want to become a reaper. Poor Greyson... Unless the I.M. thought it was truly over and sided out of fear for his on mortality, or thought he could trick them to obtain tech that would put humanity ahead of all aliens(minus reapers), he might try that angle also. He wants human to be on top no matter the cost.

[I am the Harbinger of your perfection]

Ive got it
Cerberus wants to make the reapers let humanity to live so they side with them
Reapers indoctriante them but not all of them because cerberus with all there wacky experiments have found a way to counter indoctrination
reapers do what they do best and kill everyone and while humans are inside reapers to do repairs they tag them with trackers
reapers go back to dark space humanity awakens from it pretend indocrtinated self and turn the trackers on
human fleet truns up in dark space and kill the reapers whilst they hibernate and humanity takes its place as the galatic empire
after researching dead reaers create a super mass relay to go from one galaxy to another and hence the universal empire of humnaity is formed

[MassEffect762]

I'll give my wild theory.

TIM=Very old reaper outcast/rival out for payback.

Anything other than indoctrination sounds ridiculous to me.(Uncle Bob)

[McAwesum]

I think that TIM is merely indoctrinated and cybernetically enhanced. He has the same eyes as Saren and the husks!

[Dean_the_Young]

aang001 wrote...

Did no one here read/ listen to any of the books? No one? Indoctrinated the illusive one? Had to be. Tim went as far as to start making human reaper hybrids to learn how to fight them and bit off more than he could chew, but didnt want to become a reaper. Poor Greyson... Unless the I.M. thought it was truly over and sided out of fear for his on mortality, or thought he could trick them to obtain tech that would put humanity ahead of all aliens(minus reapers), he might try that angle also. He wants human to be on top no matter the cost.

Not one of the books suggests or implies TIM is indoctrinated. Had he been indoctrinated in his own backstory comic, during ME2, during Retribution, or any other known point, he wouldn't have been opposing and helping foil deliberate Reaper intentions for longer than Shepard's been alive.

[Hekynn]

JimiShep wrote...

The Illusive Man will be the final boss! He could be potentially behind a lot of whats going on.
I really hope that he doesn't just side with the Reapers or against Shep for anything less than an epic plot twist....

I agree on the that Jim! Ever since I got Mass Effect 2 and played through it I have a VERY VERY STRONG feeling that The Illusive Man might behine all these attacks. 

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

No I think the real reason is that the Mass Effect team were looking for an enemy they could throw at the player to pad out the length of the game and instead of comming up with a new enemy that makes sense they just said "**** it, lets throw some Cerberus troopers at them and call it a day".

Its like how the Dragon Age 2 team just threw endless waves of spiders at you no matter the setting as you trudge through the same ****ing cave 20 times over.

[DarkSeraphym]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

TIM will play every card he has to make sure he comes out on top. Just like how the Shadow Broker took Saren's place as most valuable 'minion', TIM will take his. And when the time is right, he will attempt to destroy or dominate his new machine masters.

Personally, I think this idea would do his character the most justice. Indoctrination is a dangerous, and ultimately lazy, plot device that I am hoping they will keep far from the Illusive Man. I would much rather see the choice to side with the Reapers be one that he made by himself and one that he intends to use against them when the opportunity presents itself.

[Berkilak]

So... another Saren? I don't see BioWare reusing that plot. Takes away the impact Saren had.

[Eurhetemec]

Berkilak wrote...

So... another Saren? I don't see BioWare reusing that plot. Takes away the impact Saren had.

Yeah, this is why I don't think he's indoctrinated, personally. I think they'll say that he's different from Saren in that he's specifically not indoctrinated.

I strongly suspect that he'll have an indoctrination cure/vaccine (you know what I mean!), and that we'll obtain that from him in ME3, either by persuasion or force or, most likely, by taking it out of his cold, dead hands. Or cold dead head or whatever.

I also wonder about Cerberus and the whole "three heads" deal. TIM has "three" symbols all over him. Yet he's one guy. Does Cerberus have three heads? Are there two others equal in rank to TIM? Does TIM in some way have three presences?

Dean_the_Young - It's clear that you like Cerberus and don't want them to be bad guys, and that's cool (I think they're a lot of fun myself), but you might want to check the ME wiki some time, as several of the allegations you point-blank deny are detailed there. Either you need to edit the wiki to correct it, or you need to get some emotional distance from a fictional organisation from a computer game. Or both.

[atheelogos]

Nicodemus wrote...

I just get the feeling that if TIM has sided with the reapers he is doing so to lead what will remain of the Human race after the Reapers have done what they are here to do. If the Human race is so useful, I don't expect the Reapers to totally destroy them, but I do expect them to repurpose survivors into something they can use in the future (see Protheans and Keepers). That however takes time so someone has to lead the survivors while the Reapers fiddle with their DNA etc.

We all ready know what they want to do to us. Make us into Reapers.

[Whatever42]

It's pretty clear that the humans ascended into Reaperhood, at best, have no individual wills of their own but are slave programs to a borg-like super-consciousness. That's not something I would wish for my people. Is it in TIMs character? I don't see it personally.

Now would TIM sell out to become that super-consciousness (if it is a single mind and not just some sort of group mind)? Maybe. TIM comes across as extremely dedicated but I guess its possible.

[atheelogos]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

It's pretty clear that the humans ascended into Reaperhood, at best, have no individual wills of their own but are slave programs to a borg-like super-consciousness.

.... you shouldn't assume so much. They are truly alien to us. We can't pretend to understand their minds with the data we have at the moment.

[Raiil]

I don't know. Maybe TIM sees microwaving part of humanity, and then keeping the rest around as the next wave of 'Collectors' is better than, well, all of us getting microwaved.

Hopefully we can punch some sense into him, or his life out of him, in part 3.

[Whatever42]

atheelogos wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

It's pretty clear that the humans ascended into Reaperhood, at best, have no individual wills of their own but are slave programs to a borg-like super-consciousness.

.... you shouldn't assume so much. They are truly alien to us. We can't pretend to understand their minds with the data we have at the moment.

Not simply assuming. Sovereign said that it was a nation. Given how Reapers are made, I think we can assume what that means. However, those affected by the indoctrination field lose the ability to think independently. 

As a counter-point, the Geth programs are independent and decide the platform's actions democratically. I think its likely a direct counterpoint.

I say at best because some people think the individual consciousnesses don't survive at all. That the physical bodies are just meat. I believe there is a lot of evidence against that, however.

[Eurhetemec]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

It's pretty clear that the humans ascended into Reaperhood, at best, have no individual wills of their own but are slave programs to a borg-like super-consciousness. That's not something I would wish for my people. Is it in TIMs character? I don't see it personally.

Now would TIM sell out to become that super-consciousness (if it is a single mind and not just some sort of group mind)? Maybe. TIM comes across as extremely dedicated but I guess its possible.

I don't know if that's true. Reapers don't seem very Borg-like to me, it's more like they're a Borg Cube, but each Cube has it's own personality, formed from all the Borg on board, rather than slave to a super-consciousness as you put it - presumably the equivalent of the Borg Queen (daaaaaaaaaaamn but that was a stupid plot development, just sayin').

EDIT - You're right to point out the similarity/contrast with the Geth, of course, that's quite well-explained in ME2. I just think that would make it MORE likely that TIM or the like would want to be "in charge" of a Reaper consciousness.

Still, as I was saying, he might want to "form the head", i.e. become in charge of a Reaper. I doubt he'd be the only human-Reaper. Indeed, the Reapers might quietly offer several largely amoral, powerful humans the opportunity to become Reapers, for their cooperation.

I mean, it's not like TIM seems terribly concerned about mass-murder at any point, or mind-control. He sees them as regrettable-but-sometimes-necessary, at worst. So I could definitely see him going for this.

An alternate possibility would be that TIM is only one of three Cerberus "heads", and that the other two have gone for this, and he's the only one who doesn't think it's a good idea, but I'll be surprised if that's the case.

EDIT EDIT - Here's a wild idea - Talking of Reaper consciousnesses.

Say you're right and Reapers are "a nation" but ruled by a particular consciousness or idea. Perhaps one way to defeat them would be to cause a "revolution" within that nation? The Geth could certainly factor into this. Maybe the other consciousnesses will have had enough of being told what to do by the ruling consciousness?

Modifié par Eurhetemec, 24 juin 2011 - 07:44 .

[Whatever42]

Eurhetemec wrote...

I don't know if that's true. Reapers don't seem very Borg-like to me, it's more like they're a Borg Cube, but each Cube has it's own personality, formed from all the Borg on board, rather than slave to a super-consciousness as you put it - presumably the equivalent of the Borg Queen (daaaaaaaaaaamn but that was a stupid plot development, just sayin').

EDIT - You're right to point out the similarity/contrast with the Geth, of course, that's quite well-explained in ME2.

Still, as I was saying, he might want to "form the head", i.e. become in charge of a Reaper. I doubt he'd be the only human-Reaper. Indeed, the Reapers might quietly offer several largely amoral, powerful humans the opportunity to become Reapers, for their cooperation.

I mean, it's not like TIM seems terribly concerned about mass-murder at any point, or mind-control. He sees them as regrettable-but-sometimes-necessary, at worst. So I could definitely see him going for this.

An alternate possibility would be that TIM is only one of three Cerberus "heads", and that the other two have gone for this, and he's the only one who doesn't think it's a good idea, but I'll be surprised if that's the case.

I think I explained myself badly. I agree that each Reaper has a disinct individuality but each Reaper is a nation as well, hence the Borg analogy. Still up in the air about a group consciousness or the Borg-Queen. I think its the Queen, though, because Reapers have pretty strong personalities. Compare Sovereign or Harby to Legion.

If that's the case, maybe TIM was bought off. The only argument I can think against that is that it wouldn't be in TIMs personality - but that creep is so deceptive, who knows what his personality really is. It's entirely possible you're right.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 24 juin 2011 - 07:47 .

[Dave of Canada]

marshalleck wrote...

Also, how does his backstory from the comics play with this idea? I haven't read them, but as I understand it some of his experiences with Reaper tech give him some unique insight into their goals, and it's one of his main motivations for starting Cerberus to safeguard humanity.

He gets hit with a Reaper artifact that makes him capable of knowing that the Reapers are coming, he stops them from indocrinating almost all turians on Palaven and creates Cerberus to combat the Reapers 20-30~ years prior to Mass Effect 1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eurhetemec wrote...


Dean_the_Young - It's clear that you like Cerberus and don't want them to be bad guys,

It's at about this point that it's clear you really, really don't understand my position vis-a-vis Cerberus.

and that's cool (I think they're a lot of fun myself), but you might want to check the ME wiki some time, as several of the allegations you point-blank deny are detailed there. Either you need to edit the wiki to correct it, or you need to get some emotional distance from a fictional organisation from a computer game. Or both.

Or, you know, I could point out common misconceptions here, on this forum. There's dozens of perfectly good reasons to oppose Cerberus without making up things because ME1 didn't like giving much of anything about their motivations or intents about their ME1 actions.

Now, if you wish to recite something from the wiki... feel free to do so. I'll challenge it in so much that I feel it deserves to be challenged, and in so much that people interpret what the wiki says in ways that it does not imply.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 juin 2011 - 07:59 .

[Wrex4reapers]

My guess is that TIM has been an agent of the Reapers for a while.  Its only logical that they would place agents in all galactic civilizations.

In ME1, Soverign assumes that the Turians (Saren) are the most logical choice for ascension into reapers, with the geth a suitable replacement for the failure of the keepers.  At that point in the game, the Turians kicked the crap outta the humans in the First contact war, and they provide the bulk of citadel forces.  Saren also says that Soverign will let him retain his personality for some time as a reward.

When Shep kills Saren and Soverign, the reapers realize they were perhaps wrong about the turians being the strongest race, and they shift their attention to humans being the most likely candidate for ascension- Kicking TIM and Cerberus into action.  They call in the Protheans to start making human reapers while they take the senic FTL route back from dark space.

Over the course of ME2, when TIM realizes that Shep is going to destroy the collectors, he opts to try to take over the collector base and assume their role as guardians... not just prove humans are worthy of being ascended into reapers - but worthy of replacing the Protheans as the reaper's vanguards.

In ME3, TIM sees that Humanity is the only choice left for becoming the caretaker race to replace the now dead Protheans, with or without Shep.  In order to preserve his place in the galaxy, he sides with the reapers.  We already know that he doesnt care about the other races - just so long as humanity survives...  And being the guardian of the reaper construction facility - They would be the second strongest race in the galaxy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave? Would you do the honors?

[Eurhetemec]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or, you know, I could point out common misconceptions here,. There's dozens of perfectly good reasons to oppose Cerberus without making up things because ME1 didn't like giving much of anything about their motivations or intents.

I don't think so, Dean.

You went far beyond "pointing out misperceptions" into making elaborate and in some cases spurious arguments about why Cerberus wasn't responsible or didn't mean it, and all the mind-control and trans-human stuff is just an accident or a co-incidence. Further, you're claiming things that contradict the ME wiki, like that Cerberus had nothing to do with Chasca. And your whole "Oh he came down HARD on those guys who ran the subject zero project!" - What, the mostly dead guys? I'm sure he came down real hard on them. Funny how he didn't come down on them until the experiment failed...

And honestly it's ludicrous to apologise for Cerberus, which is what you're doing, whether out of liking them, or because you feel a need to play Devil's Advocate (inaccurately).

At a certain point you have to sit back and realize that, for whatever reasons, whether it's bad management, fanaticism, or just recruiting largely Mad Scientists, Cerberus has an utterly unnatural "evil experiment" rate. As discussed, most of those experiments revolve around making humans better or stronger, or mind-controlling humans or other creatures. Even if they weren't intended that way, they usually end up that way.

[BatmanPWNS]

I think we'll finally get to confront him.