106 réponses à ce sujet

[Balek-Vriege]

Mass Effect: Evolution *spoilers.* TIM came in contact with a Reaper Artifact (the husk making ones like in Arrival etc.) which allowed him to understand a weird language and gave him visions like Shepard's. He could even "feel" where the artifact was located across the galaxy after it was moved. Based on those events he's minimally indoctrinated/husked at best and a inevitable pawn of the Reapers at worst.

I could see him becoming much like Desolas, being the Turian antagonist in Evolution. TIM's aspirations are almost identical to his. As time goes on, it's obvious TIM is more willing to use Reaper technology to further his own goals for humanity. By ME3 his logic may be totally currupted into thinking husk technology and Human Reapers are the future of mankind, without actually knowing it. Similar to Desolas thinking husk technology and what was coming over the horizon (Reapers), would perfect the Turian race.

It's still possible TIM is a wild card using his own Cerberus members as indoctrinated pawns in aquiring Reaper knowledge and finding a way to destroy them. The side effect being that indoctrinated members carry out the will of the Reapers and by doing so, try to kill and stop Shepard. Maybe TIM will find the key to indoctrination or something? Who knows.

[Ahglock]

atheelogos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
OP you hit the nail on the head. The Reapers want to make us into machine Gods. I'd be surprised if TIM didn't want that.

why presume the Reapers claims to be any more valid than the Council's claims? 

Because they've already tried to make us into Reapers. They want us to ascend. Hell Harbinger said it a number of times himself

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

“They will be as we are.”

“Relinquish your form to us.”

“Embrace perfection."
“I am the Harbinger of your perfection.” 
“I am the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

Um but they did that by turning people into human slurries.  There isn't a lick of evidence that anything beyond some DNA chains is left of humanity.  In fact it is far more likely that nothing of humanity remains.  That anyone is going to accept that is hard to believe, that someone who has dedicated there life to fighting the reapers would accept that is even less plausible.  This really stinks of another episode of when bad writing attacks.  Given how poorly done the you are working with Cerberus story hooks were handled in ME2, I don't see why anyone expects anything decent for why you are now fighting them.  

[jbblue05]

After seeing what the Reapers did to the Protheans. Finding out they wiped out thousands of advanced civilizations, knowing TIM is a control freak. Why would TIM want to side with the Reapers, why would TIM trust that the Reapers have Humanity's best interests?.

This would be lame if Bioware did this, they would just be repeating Saren's character

[IamSithari]

I think indoc works only if u saved the collector base and also if cerberus is trying to kill shep to either preserve the for another 50000 yrs like on ilos for the next encounter or simply he's apart of the ascension package no shepard no human reaper.

[Lumikki]

jbblue05 wrote...

After seeing what the Reapers did to the Protheans. Finding out they wiped out thousands of advanced civilizations, knowing TIM is a control freak. Why would TIM want to side with the Reapers, why would TIM trust that the Reapers have Humanity's best interests?.

TIM doesn't care humanity, other ways TIM would not try to genetically change humans to better. TIM is after the control (power) with any cost. If you mean humans as race, no reapers would not care that, but they could let some humans live if they support them. Like mercy for loyal servant.

This would be lame if Bioware did this, they would just be repeating Saren's character

I don't think TIM's doing it exactly same reason as Saren, but yes there is some common path here.

I think even more lame would be if TIM fights agaist Shepard while knowing that Shepards is trying defeat reapers. Because that means TIM would let everyone in galaxy to die just because what? Revenge? Leadership?

We do know TIM is trying to kill Shepard, but you can try pick the reason what makes most sense.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 juin 2011 - 06:35 .

[FrozenShadow]

Well I wouldn't be surprised if Illusive Man and most of the Cerberus would be indoctrinated. The have done so many tests and so many of them have failed that there is huge chance for that.

But personally I don't believe that Illusive Man is working with Reapers or that he would be Saren 2. The only goal he is working is human dominance. And what would be better way to achieve that than use Reaper technology to your advance?

This is the reason, why Illusive Man is interested Reaper tech and especially the whole indoctrination process. After all that's basically mind control, where you brain wash others to your goals. I think that Illusive Man's ultimate goal is sort of enslave all the other races and then made them serve Humanity. That's why Cerberus had studied so much different mind control methods, because they have tried to find the best way to achieve the control. This would also explain the whole Overload situation. Because basic mind control won't work in Geth, they needed to search a new way to get control over them and they found it with Overload project, though the initial try did fail as we know. But they had right direction.

Now to achieve this goal, Reapers must not win, because that would mean end of all life. That's why Cerberus brought Shepard back to fight against them. However Illusive Man had either learned that Shep is more of hindrance (paragon) or that Shep handed keys to human domination with Collector base (renegade) and is now more of "security risk" and that's why Cerberus now try to ultimately get rid of Shepard. Shepard is problem for Cerberus ultimate goals after the Reaper thread is over.

Of course I don't have access to ME novels/comics so I don't know all that. I just got this impression from the games that Cerberus and Illusive Man are just working to find way to ensure human dominance by enslaving other races and "build" them along humanity needs.

But like I said at the begin, Cerberus indoctrination and that way being Reapers agents isn't that unlike idea. However I can't help but think that it would a little lame. They did it already in ME, so I hope BW would made some more complex reason for Cerberus trying to kill Shep in ME3.

[hwf]

T'Soni: Cerberus just don't quit, do they?
Shepard: They're indoctrinated. They're capable of anything.

Casey Hudson was called out on Twitter for this spoiler in the E3 gameplay demo.
His response was "Nah, not a spoiler, just simplification of premise for TV. Cerberus & Reapers are both against you in ME3 - the mystery is why."

This premise was made by Shepard. He assumed Cerberus was indoctrinated.

I'd like to believe that Cerberus and the Illusive Man in particular are not indoctrinated.
What we see in the gameplay demo is Cerberus actively trying to either stop Shepard or stop the Krogan female from being delivered to Krogan warlord Wrex.

I'm thinking the Illusive Man is more then on top of things; he's at least one step ahead of the curve - in part due to his unique changes as seen in the ME:Evolution comic.
The galaxy's in a perfect storm right now; every major species of the galaxy's at each other's throats, the Reapers are tearing through all of the major species' established colonies and likely their homeworlds.
This is an event that can and should be exploited to the maximum; to drastically tilt the power balance in Humanity's favor and the Illusive Man will be ensuring that it stays a perfect storm.

As for dealing with the Reapers? -Cerberus has been founded to deal with that very specific threat.
How? -That's on a need to know basis.

In the meantime, the Illusive Man does not want Shepard to broker peace let alone forge an alliance between Krogans and Salarians. These and other species need to be at each other's throat while the Reapers are tearing them up.
Once the Reaper threat has been contained and the smoke clears Humanity will have taken their rightful place in the stars.

Modifié par hwf, 25 juin 2011 - 07:49 .

[Lumikki]

Yeah, but it doesn't make any sense to TIM try to stop Shepard just for that TIM can deal reapers his own?

I mean if you know nuclear bomb is comming, you don't kill the only person who is able to stop it, uless you want the nuclear bomb to hit. So, TIM could play it as game of control, but that's is really stupid way to do action, because TIM would have to know 100% way to stop reapers too without Shepard and others help. Only then it would make sense TIM trying to kill Shepard without been side of reapers. If TIM doesn't know how to stop reapers by him self, then TIM actions doesn't make any sense unless he is reapers side.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 juin 2011 - 08:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

TIM doesn't care humanity, other ways TIM would not try to genetically change humans to better.

This is debatable on so many levels that you don't even need to like Cerberus to disagree with it. 'Humanity' is some static gentic variation of current technology and medicine that must never be altered, or else the term 'Humanity' has no meaning whatsoever as it is rewritten every generation.

TIM is after the control (power) with any cost. If you mean humans as race, no reapers would not care that, but they could let some humans live if they support them. Like mercy for loyal servant.

The only two species they have deliberatly spared during a Reaping have been the Keepers and the Collectors.  Their policy towards loyal servants is also extinction of the natural species.

I don't think TIM's doing it exactly same reason as Saren, but yes there is some common path here.

I think even more lame would be if TIM fights agaist Shepard while knowing that Shepards is trying defeat reapers. Because that means TIM would let everyone in galaxy to die just because what? Revenge? Leadership?

We do know TIM is trying to kill Shepard, but you can try pick the reason what makes most sense.

Would anyone consider 'he's playing a gambit to betray the Reapers' to make less sense than 'he's decided that, hey, the Reapers were right afterall/the Reapers will spare humanity if he cooperates'?

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, but it doesn't make any sense to TIM try to stop Shepard just for that TIM can deal reapers his own?

I mean if you know nuclear bomb is comming, you don't kill the only person who is able to stop it, uless you want the nuclear bomb to hit. So, TIM could play it as game of control, but that's is really stupid way to do action, because TIM would have to know 100% way to stop reapers too without Shepard and others help. Only then it would make sense TIM trying to kill Shepard without been side of reapers. If TIM doesn't know how to stop reapers by him self, then TIM actions doesn't make any sense unless he is reapers side.

Why should anyone, even the player, believe that Shepard is the only person who can stop the Reapers?

Shepard isn't even going to be the one stopping the Reapers: a lot of ships and fleets and armies from a lot of different species and factions are going to stop the Reapers. Shepard is just organizing the armies to free Earth. Which itself isn't even the galaxy.

[Dustbeard]

hwf wrote...
In the meantime, the Illusive Man does not want Shepard to broker peace let alone forge an alliance between Krogans and Salarians. These and other species need to be at each other's throat while the Reapers are tearing them up.
Once the Reaper threat has been contained and the smoke clears Humanity will have taken their rightful place in the stars.

I'd like to think this was TIM's reasoning rather than that he's siding with the Reapers or Cerberus have simply been brainwashed.  Shepard trying to rally alien races to save humanity would be ample reason for Cerberus to be fighting him throughout the game - humanity would owe aliens for their survival, which flies in the face of everything Cerberus stands for.  It'd be a misguided battle over ideology, indoctrination wouldn't have to enter into it.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part - hopefully the E3 demos are a bit inaccurate with regards to Cerberus and we'll know better when the game comes out.

Modifié par Dustbeard, 25 juin 2011 - 08:47 .

[Lumikki]

Dustbeard wrote...

Shepard trying to rally alien races to save humanity would be ample reason for Cerberus to be fighting him throughout the game - humanity would owe aliens for their survival, which flies in the face of everything Cerberus stands for.  It'd be a misguided battle over ideology, indoctrination wouldn't have to enter into it.

Yeah, that what I think it also is and that's what I'm afraid what it is. Because that's just pure stupidy.

I mean most dangerous enemy force ever seen,  who will wipe out every life out of galaxy. And you people will stop and start fighting between you self about ideology. Talk about priorities been in totally wrong places.

Do we have option in the beging of game to blow Spepard brains in the wall as self done action, so the rest of the universe can stop arguing about ideology in front of total destruction, then go to do the job and kill reapers?

[Repearized Miranda]

Lumikki wrote...

Dustbeard wrote...

Shepard trying to rally alien races to save humanity would be ample reason for Cerberus to be fighting him throughout the game - humanity would owe aliens for their survival, which flies in the face of everything Cerberus stands for.  It'd be a misguided battle over ideology, indoctrination wouldn't have to enter into it.

Yeah, that what I think it also is and that's what I'm afraid what it is. Because that's just pure stupidy.

I mean most dangerous enemy force ever seen,  who will wipe out every life out of galaxy. And you people will stop and start fighting between you self about ideology. Talk about priorities been in totally wrong places.

Do we have option in the beging of game to blow Spepard brains in the wall as self done action, so the rest of the universe can stop arguing about ideology in front of total destruction, then go to do the job and kill reapers?

If anything, this whole series has been based on the "Belief System!" It's no different the vast majority of situations from the great to the small. I mean, damn! Aren't we all fighting for (or against - depending on how you look at it) - the same thing? 

In all the ways the Alliance/Council/Cerberus could be wrong, they're right in just as many! As much as everyone believes Shepad is wrong, including himself/herself, there are just as many who believe that Shepard is right!

Is anyone looking at a stalemate, here?

[Dean_the_Young]

Dustbeard wrote...

hwf wrote...
In the meantime, the Illusive Man does not want Shepard to broker peace let alone forge an alliance between Krogans and Salarians. These and other species need to be at each other's throat while the Reapers are tearing them up.
Once the Reaper threat has been contained and the smoke clears Humanity will have taken their rightful place in the stars.

I'd like to think this was TIM's reasoning rather than that he's siding with the Reapers or Cerberus have simply been brainwashed.  Shepard trying to rally alien races to save humanity would be ample reason for Cerberus to be fighting him throughout the game - humanity would owe aliens for their survival, which flies in the face of everything Cerberus stands for.  It'd be a misguided battle over ideology, indoctrination wouldn't have to enter into it.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part - hopefully the E3 demos are a bit inaccurate with regards to Cerberus and we'll know better when the game comes out.

Have you played ME2, per chance?

It's an exceptional game that revolves around Cerberus making deals and going out of its way to recruit a multi-species team in order to save humans. In an exceptional DLC, we also learn that Cerberus actually has a history of taking policies to reduce tensions and boost ties between the Alliance and other allien species.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dustbeard wrote...

hwf wrote...
In the meantime, the Illusive Man does not want Shepard to broker peace let alone forge an alliance between Krogans and Salarians. These and other species need to be at each other's throat while the Reapers are tearing them up.
Once the Reaper threat has been contained and the smoke clears Humanity will have taken their rightful place in the stars.

I'd like to think this was TIM's reasoning rather than that he's siding with the Reapers or Cerberus have simply been brainwashed.  Shepard trying to rally alien races to save humanity would be ample reason for Cerberus to be fighting him throughout the game - humanity would owe aliens for their survival, which flies in the face of everything Cerberus stands for.  It'd be a misguided battle over ideology, indoctrination wouldn't have to enter into it.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part - hopefully the E3 demos are a bit inaccurate with regards to Cerberus and we'll know better when the game comes out.

Have you played ME2, per chance?

It's an exceptional game that revolves around Cerberus making deals and going out of its way to recruit a multi-species team in order to save humans. In an exceptional DLC, we also learn that Cerberus actually has a history of taking policies to reduce tensions and boost ties between the Alliance and other allien species.

Off-Topic
Dean... for some reason I completely read that post of yours in the style of the Salarian selling games on the Citadel
On-Topic
Other than what Dean said, I just hope there is a damn good reason as to why they looking to stop Shepard considering the potential choices in ME2.

[Ahglock]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dustbeard wrote...

hwf wrote...
In the meantime, the Illusive Man does not want Shepard to broker peace let alone forge an alliance between Krogans and Salarians. These and other species need to be at each other's throat while the Reapers are tearing them up.
Once the Reaper threat has been contained and the smoke clears Humanity will have taken their rightful place in the stars.

I'd like to think this was TIM's reasoning rather than that he's siding with the Reapers or Cerberus have simply been brainwashed.  Shepard trying to rally alien races to save humanity would be ample reason for Cerberus to be fighting him throughout the game - humanity would owe aliens for their survival, which flies in the face of everything Cerberus stands for.  It'd be a misguided battle over ideology, indoctrination wouldn't have to enter into it.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part - hopefully the E3 demos are a bit inaccurate with regards to Cerberus and we'll know better when the game comes out.

Have you played ME2, per chance?

It's an exceptional game that revolves around Cerberus making deals and going out of its way to recruit a multi-species team in order to save humans. In an exceptional DLC, we also learn that Cerberus actually has a history of taking policies to reduce tensions and boost ties between the Alliance and other allien species.

Off-Topic
Dean... for some reason I completely read that post of yours in the style of the Salarian selling games on the Citadel
On-Topic
Other than what Dean said, I just hope there is a damn good reason as to why they looking to stop Shepard considering the potential choices in ME2.

Look how bad the reason was for working with Cerberus.

Tim  "Hey work with us, no one else is trying."  
Shep "Sounds like a plan.  I wont bother checking any of this out.  Lets go save the Galaxy!"

Do you really expect anything beyond a fancy version of, because we said so?  

[Repearized Miranda]

Reasoning was bad all the way around this game, but why need it, when you have a target (and most know how to handle those)

[hwf]

Lumikki: Yeah, but it doesn't make any sense to TIM try to stop Shepard just for that TIM can deal reapers his own?

Cerberus' manifesto was worded by the Illusive Man right at the end of the First Contact war. At the start of ME3 it'll be roughly three decades, 30 whole years, since that day.
He's been on this case for a long time. He'll have some aces up his sleeve - on a need to know basis.

Now I'll grant you this - all of Shepard's choices are going to impact the Illusive Man's chances of pulling this off.
But some choices are going to give Cerberus a lot of leverage to force a species' cooperation in dealing with the Reaper threat. Like bribing or coercing the Quarians, to get the full cooperation of their flotilla, seems to me a very viable tactic for Cerberus.
That is, if your Shepard had the stomach to make the right calls in the previous two games. ;-)

Dustbeard: [...] humanity would owe aliens for their survival,
which flies in the face of everything Cerberus stands for.

Although that's one possible motivation for the Illusive Man to intervene I'd like to think he's above that Terra Firma malarky.
What I meant to imply with Cerberus working to stop Shepard from brokering peace or alliances between two alien races is that the Illusive Man doesn't want a united galaxy after the dust settles.
See it as Divide and Conquer. And for once Cerberus has a golden opportunity in making this happen.
An overpowering outside force, not politically tied to Earth at all, is tearing everyone up - if you could exploit this to your advantage Humanity'll be significantly more powerful afterwards.

You should see this stance of Cerberus in the same light as Shepard making the call to not have the Arcturus fleet save the Destiny Ascension. Just pretend you didn't hear the pleads for help.
Throw the most powerful species in front of the bus. Or, as Chief Williams put it - "sic your dog on it and run".

[SkittlesKat96]

This seems plausible.

Also people seem to think that TIM will become a Reaper...I kind of disagree with this, just seems way too expected and cliche.

[Lumikki]

There is actually many option why TIM could try to kill Shepard, but what is actually wise to do is different. Motivation why TIM could be agaist Shepard

1. TIM is reaper (or synthetic life form, like AI)
2. TIM is cooperation with the reapers (real or fake doesn't matter)
3. TIM is trying to hide over the war while reapers kills everyone (Little like Protheans tryed to do).
4. TIM has some "ace" how to kill reapers, but wants everyone else be killed first
5. TIM has just idiotic revenge or ideology agaist Shepard and believe he can do better job

Okey those are the options I figured as possiblities, does anyone invent more reasons why TIM could want Shepard dead?

One thing to common to all of these TIM choises is that everyone else will die in universe if TIM kills Shepard and these options does even guarantee that TIM survive with his group.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[Jaxtar]

Is cerberus working for reapers?
Thought they where just enemies..

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
OP you hit the nail on the head. The Reapers want to make us into machine Gods. I'd be surprised if TIM didn't want that.

why presume the Reapers claims to be any more valid than the Council's claims? 

Because they've already tried to make us into Reapers. They want us to ascend. Hell Harbinger said it a number of times himself

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

“They will be as we are.”

“Relinquish your form to us.”

“Embrace perfection."
“I am the Harbinger of your perfection.” 
“I am the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

And, uh, why should the Illusive Man, or anyone, share the Reapers point of view because they think they're doing us a favor?

Especially when, by the post-ME2 novel Retribution, we see that from TIM's own POV he, well, doesn't?

[88mphSlayer]

TIM is the type of personality who never does anything unless it empowers his position, surrendering to the reapers does the opposite... he'd far more likely want to use the collector base to build his own reapers and barring building reapers, use the technology to make humanity unstoppable

the only way i'd see TIM siding with the reapers is as a "bluff" because he needs something from them he can't get otherwise, not the same as submitting

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 26 juin 2011 - 02:01 .

[Repearized Miranda]

88mphSlayer wrote...

TIM is the type of personality who never does anything unless it empowers his position, surrendering to the reapers does the opposite... he'd far more likely want to use the collector base to build his own reapers and barring building reapers, use the technology to make humanity unstoppable

the only way i'd see TIM siding with the reapers is as a "bluff" because he needs something from them he can't get otherwise, not the same as submitting

I can totally see this. He may be ruthless, but he doesn't lack intelligence. Same could be said for a Renegade Shepard. My Shep is ruthless, but she'd never think about siding with TIM.