294 réponses à ce sujet

[HipMaestro]

I suspect that EA has instructed their staff to curtail involvement on any level with all aspects of NWN.  Providing a veil of uncertainty is a typically tactic to avoid (or at least delay) conflict and thereby avoiding tying up valuable resources they need to maintain their current projects.

Still, unless there is actually monitoring of staff correspondence by EA (though I have worked for companies that had this level of security), it is surprising that appraisals have been cut off cold, but it has evidently become policy very abruptly.  A very casual and nonconfrontational email I sent to Bioware a few weeks ago was delivered successfully but have received no reply, via bot or a real contact.  Just one small example of the self-imposed "cloak of darkness".

As far as I am concerned, Bioware no longer exists as far as NWN is concerned. I'll leave it to you folks to decide for yourselves but without the community staying in touch and helping to work issues, NWN would have died completely with the so-called hak attack (anyone in the mood to hear a viable conspiracy theory on this load of guano?)

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Chris Priestly wrote...

So I was going to come here and post what is happeneing and what you can expect, but reading Bannor Bloodfisst post, and seeing how I am part of a terrible horrible company, I'm just going away now.

After all, that's what we do now, right?

Apparently yes. It is.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 23 juillet 2011 - 06:42 .

[Knight_Shield]

LOL UrkOfGreyhawk ..I think the Bioware we knew is not the same .I also think someone should say hey we are working on it its going to take awhile, or maybe hey were working on it but it my not get fixed. Something. Hello *taps on monitor*

[MrZork]

So much of this thread is speculation based on no real information. Obviously, Bioware is responsible for the lack of communication and I am disappointed that no one from BW has come forward with any sort of update. (Even a "Sorry, we've given up." would at least let people move on.) However, what value is there in several pages of uninformed speculation, sometimes inflated as someone's "wise" view of corporate culture or how this or that company deals with games/gamers? Very little value. Especially here on the stickied thread where people might come to check for real information, it's too bad this isn't a shorter thread, more focused on workarounds for the problems people are having and less focused on venting. How many of the people posting that "Bioware has totally abandoned NWN" actually know that they have? Uh huh.

Obviously, people are free to draw their own conclusions from the lack of visible progress and the lack of official communication. However, it should at least be pointed out that such negative musings are no better supported by the available facts than would be speculation that concluded, "With recent releases of online content and other new game deadlines looming, Bioware only has one or two people taking on the task of dealing with the legacy NWN boards, the server issue, CD keys, etc. And, only as a lower priority side-project. They are working on it, but it may take a long time before those resources can be brought up to date and put online again."

BTW, that rosy interpretation is not one I hold, personally. I am just pointing out that presenting negative speculation as if it were what's "really" going on when there is no reason to believe that it is is no better than doing the same thing with positive speculation.

[WebShaman]

Well, this topic is a sticky, so it should be rather noticeable.

Chris, how about an update, please?

[Tremayne7]

Just an supposition on my part based on what happened to the Sims 2 forum...

First of all, NWN is an OLD game. New fixes that would probably solve the problem in a day or two don't work or the problem was more serious than Bioware/EA knew when it first happened. Maybe they are having to keep it down as there is some kind of forensic evidence the authorities need to help trace down who did this. Also remember Sony's PS Network was down for almost a month as well while they fixed the problem.

They also took the Sims 2 forum and exchange down as well. I think this was to fix some problems that had been occurring there as well as to enhance the site's security as well.

Keep up the polite noise and I'm sure they'll realize there are still a lot of fans out there.

[Sethan_1]

I've been in IT since before there were PCs. There are few principles that have held true for me, for as long as I've been doing this.

1. Before you can fix the problem, you need to know what you are fixing.

OK - Bioware got hacked. The first part of dealing with that is determining how. Once that is known, it can be addressed based on the method, constraints on what has to continue working, and available resources to work on the problem.  Part of the time since the server was taken offline may well have been consumed in figuring out how they were hacked.

2. Nothing is as easy as it seems.

Anyone skilled in a technical field has heard someone not familiar with the particulars of a specific issue say "Its simple to fix. All you have to do is..." ...followed by a simple plan that may or may not work, and even if it will work is either impractical or far more difficult to implement than it sounds. This can be compounded when the person doing the work may not be an expert in the field, but rather someone pressed into service who knows just enough to get a handle on the work needing done and they are dealing with legacy code or hardware.

3. Mission creep will kill you.

It is very easy when setting out to fix problem A, to decide to fix problem B 'while I am in there anyway,' which can quickly lead to having to fix problems C through F. This is a killer, and could easily happen if, for instance, Bioware decided to fix the CD-Key authentication method.

4. Murphy was an optimist.

Regardless of one's intent to fix only problem A, life often has other plans. A is fixed and the fix breaks B. You fix B, but C and D break on their own while you do it even though they had nothing to do with your fix. You look up a week later while working on problem Q, trying to figure out how you got there.

5. Volunteering for ungrateful people isn't very rewarding.

If you've ever gone out of your way to help someone who did nothing but complain about how you were helping them, you've been here. Next time they need help, you find you have something better to do instead. In this case, sure we paid for NWN - but the game is 9 years old and its hard to argue we haven't gotten our money's worth. Bioware isn't making any significant money off this game anymore (if any at all), and though it can be argued that they reap a significant amount of goodwill and time in the spotlight by their continued support for it, reading some of the posts on these forums, that can be hard to see sometimes. (Trust us, Bioware, the goodwill is there and counts.) Any time spent on fixing this issue is taking away from time spent on current projects that actually make tangible dollars, unless it is done in someone's free time. That drops their continued support into the realm of volunteering to help... and it can be hard to muster up interest in doing so for people who are being asses about it.

6. Communication is king.

Any time there is a situation that negatively impacts a customer, the one thing that most contributes to customer satisfaction with the eventual resolution of the issue is communication. The best tech company I've worked for has a policy that from the time an alert fires, the engineer working it has 15 minutes to contact the customer regarding the issue. That takes precedence even over fixing the issue. Once initial contact is made, the customer must be contacted and updated daily until the issue is resolved. The constant contact keeps the customer informed so they don't have to speculate about what is really happening. I'm not suggesting daily updates here from Bioware, but once every week or two would keep the mob from passing out torches and pitchforks. Being honest is OK - i.e., "We're doing 100 hour weeks on ME3, and I've only been able to spend a few minutes working on this."

6. Lack of Communication sends a message.

Silence when there is a known issue can be interpreted in many different ways. Communication allows management of that message - but sometimes failure to communicate can be a message in itself. It could mean the Bioware folks are really busy and haven't got time to update us. It could mean they're constantly at the "almost have it fixed" point and don't want to update us until it is back online. It could mean that they don't want to update us because they don't think we'll like the news, and they're hoping we will go away without the reputation hit they will take otherwise. It could mean they have been ordered by EA to do nothing and stop communicating on it. It could mean something else entirely. We don't know - and some people are going to assume the message is whatever they want (or fear) it is, and operate on that basis.

----------

Here's hoping the reality comes in on the positive side of things, and things are brought back up soon.

Modifié par Sethan_1, 24 juillet 2011 - 03:26 .

[MrZork]

What he said! That was an excellent post, Sethan_1.

I want to particularly agree with one point:

Sethan_1 wrote...

5. Volunteering for ungrateful people isn't very rewarding.

If you've ever gone out of your way to help someone who did nothing but complain about how you were helping them, you've been here. Next time they need help, you find you have something better to do instead. In this case, sure we paid for NWN - but the game is 9 years old and its hard to argue we haven't gotten our money's worth. Bioware isn't making any significant money off this game anymore (if any at all), and though it can be argued that they reap a significant amount of goodwill and time in the spotlight by their continued support for it, reading some of the posts on these forums, that can be hard to see sometimes. (Trust us, Bioware, the goodwill is there and counts.) Any time spent on fixing this issue is taking away from time spent on current projects that actually make tangible dollars, unless it is done in someone's free time. That drops their continued support into the realm of volunteering to help... and it can be hard to muster up interest in doing so for people who are being asses about it.

Regarding the highlighted note, half the reason I bought Dragon Age:Origins was because of thinking that boiled down to, "1) Bioware made it. 2) Bioware made NWN, a fantastic swords-and-sorcery game. 3) Bioware has supported that game and the community that mods for it for the better part of a decade. 4) Here's my $." So, not only do I appreciate the support Bioware has given NWN all these years, but that contributes to my trust that other Bioware games will also be of impressive quality and receive excellent support.

[Tyndrel]

MrZork wrote...

Regarding the highlighted note, half the reason I bought Dragon Age:Origins was because of thinking that boiled down to, "1) Bioware made it. 2) Bioware made NWN, a fantastic swords-and-sorcery game. 3) Bioware has supported that game and the community that mods for it for the better part of a decade. 4) Here's my $." So, not only do I appreciate the support Bioware has given NWN all these years, but that contributes to my trust that other Bioware games will also be of impressive quality and receive excellent support.

I also continue to buy Bioware titles, DA (Origins and Awakening), Mass effect 1 and 2 and all the DLC, because it's by Bioware.  Because of NwN I know what standard to expect and though they haven't reached these dizzy heights since I am happy to buy and play their newer work. I always return to NwN and will continue to do so unless something significantly better appears and I doubt it ever will. NwN is not just a great game it has this community too and that is not something you can make or sell.

So please Biofolks, give us a clue, just let us know what is happening.

Thanks in anticipation.

[Keviant]

*signed
It's been long enough and even after a return from a long holiday, it's still not fixed. Typical EA, giving the cold shoulder to avoid responsibility for games. I'm not letting this die, not for this game. Not now, Not later, Not ever.

[MrZork]

Keviant wrote...

*signed
It's been long enough and even after a return from a long holiday, it's still not fixed. Typical EA, giving the cold shoulder to avoid responsibility for games. I'm not letting this die, not for this game. Not now, Not later, Not ever.

So, you actually know that "it's been long enough"? If you have some expertise in such matters, it would be educational for most of us to hear what you know about the attack and how you come to the proclamation that enough time has passed to have addressed whatever security issues may have been caused/revealed by the attack.

I have no idea what EA/Bioware plans to do about this and what the timeline is. And, I have no expertise in dealing with network security issues. I am anxious to see the old boards and the MP authorization server come back online. I don't know if it's been long enough to fix the problems, but I know that we could have gotten some sort of update, whether it had an estimate for things coming back online or merely said it was being worked on (or wasn't, as the case may be).

That said, in the interest of getting some sense of the time needed to deal with such issues, it may be worth noting that when the Playstation Network was hacked, it was down for ~23 days. Of course, PSN is certainly a bigger site and quite likely more complex than the Bioware legacy forums, but consider that: 1) Sony is a much bigger company than Bioware or EA, with more resources available to deal with such a problem; 2) PSN is a much higher priority product for Sony, making it likely that a full team was working nonstop to get it back online; and 3) PSN is probably based on newer software than the legacy forums, making it likely much easier to update with newer security features. So, in light of those things, it might be fairly surprising if EA/Bioware responded to this attack with the same speed that Sony responded to theirs, and PSN was down for the better part of a month.

As I said, I don't know what will be the ultimate resolution of this issue. But, particularly given that relatively long delays aren't exactly unheard of after such attacks, I would certainly believe it's possible that they are working on it and it just isn't done yet.

[Knight_Shield]

I agree with Sethan_1.

You sound like someone who takes complaint calls for companies.

IMHO
(I have owned 2 small businesses.I would say communication is #1 priorty.If I didnt call a customer and let them know what was going on good or bad they would get furious as if they were not showed any respect.I called people regardless of the update.Only reason I wouldnt call back is because I didnt want their business.)


Im sure Bioware is doing something ...it would just be nice to have and update.A little PR goes aloooooooooong ways.

[MrZork]

Knight_Shield wrote...

I agree with Sethan_1.

You sound like someone who takes complaint calls for companies.

I reject the false dichotomy that either one is declaring that the sky is falling or one must be defending EA/Bioware. I certainly have not been defending Bioware or EA on their handling of this because I (like most of us here) don't know how they have been handling it (aside from the communication fail; more below). All I have said is that they may be working on it and they may not be working on it and it would be more helpful if people making this or that statement about the nature of what's being done would enlighten the rest of us with what they actually know. So, I can't control anyone else's perception of what I sound like, but I am trying to sound like someone who puts analysis and reasoning based on knowledge above speculation based on nothing and above venting based on quite understandable frustration with having been told nothing for so long.

If someone has some actual information on what is or isn't being done about this, or has some knowledge about what a reasonable timeline is, or anything else, I certainly hope they post it. Someone said it's already been long enough and I was curious how they knew that. Obviously, I would be happy if it were fixed by now, but in the interest of giving some context, I explained why it may be reasonable to think it can take longer.

IMHO
(I have owned 2 small businesses.I would say communication is #1 priorty.If I didnt call a customer and let them know what was going on good or bad they would get furious as if they were not showed any respect.I called people regardless of the update.Only reason I wouldnt call back is because I didnt want their business.)

Im sure Bioware is doing something ...it would just be nice to have and update.A little PR goes aloooooooooong ways.

It sounds like you and I have the same attitude about how to run a business and I agree 100% with the notion that this has been a communication fail for EA/Bioware. As I noted twice above, the lack of an update is disappointing. In my business, it's much better to let people know what's been going on - even if you aren't sure how much more needs to be done or how long it will take - than to stonewall while people make random assumptions in an information vacuum.

[zDark Shadowz]

I'm just glad the master server lasted as long as it did. It's been a fun ride.

[aureliandragon]

On another important point which has not been mentioned yet:

Will we still be able to even use our CD keys, even if we still have the physical printed record of them? The thing that occurs to me is that this revamp might require us to re-register the game, depending on whether the old NWN accounts are saved or if they are disabled/deleted for security protection (or if the whole thing is scrapped entirely for logistical efficiency and NWN will have to be registered under our EA accounts instead - indeed, that's a possibility I don't think anyone here has mentioned yet, and might even be a reason why it's taking so long, depending on whether NWN and NWN2 will need to be patched also in order to use the new account format).

If so, would we be allowed to re-register our keys under EA accounts if they were registered under the classic NWN site? Or would they still be registered to the old, inaccessible legacy accounts (indeed, given the fact that the NWN1 forums are now located under Bioware Social, and that there isn't even a "sorry, we're down for the moment" message on nwn.bioware.com - it just forwards you to the main Bioware site now, it seems likely that the old NWN site as such isn't coming back at all), thus resulting in us being slapped with a "this CD key is owned by another user" message and forcing us to buy the game again in order to obtain a usable key?

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Zork, you're full of it. My grandmother could have fixed a simple authentication server by now. And I'm not buying the "forensic evidence" line either. They need to replace the server whether or not the authorities are examining the data. Replacing old servers is just a cost of doing business. My company replaces all their servers regularly. We never have a server online more than 6 years old, and most of them get rotated out after 4. In the unlikely event a server does fail we work day and night until it's back up, and we stay in continuous touch with our customers to keep them appraised as to our progress.

It's been a MONTH and still not a peep. THERE'S NO EXCUSE FOR TREATING CUSTOMERS WITH THIS KIND OF DISRESPECT. We're being blown off. Maybe on planet Zork it's OK to treat your decade old loyal customers like this. Maybe you're just one of those really apathetic consumers that allow companies like EA to continue to do business. Personally I can't believe that my beloved Bioware is treating me like crap.

I'm completely pissed off.

The server isn't fixed yet because they don't care. The server isn't fixed yet because this is EA. Bio is dead and this is just the way EA does business. "We'll get to it when we get to it, if we bother to get to it at all, and if the customer doesn't like it they can swap emails with some clueless support drone who's incompetant to take any real action other than send an endless string of FAQ links that the customer probably already found before."

I'm pretty sure the Bio staff didn't even realize how lost they were until now.

Well they know it now. And so do we.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 30 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[FunkySwerve]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Zork, you're full of it. 

If by it, you mean common sense, then I completely agree. He's one of the sole rational voices in this thread. But clearly, whining and harping has been a very effictive strategem for eliciting responses to your inquiries from Bioware/EA thus far, so by all means, don't let a little rationality stop you.

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 30 juillet 2011 - 06:21 .

[Tremayne7]

I've had experience with EA via Sims 2. Currently the Sims 2 forum and exchange site is down as well. That site has needed maintenance since March 1st of this year and they just took it off line about a week or so after the Bioware Master Server went offline as well. At least their website has a message saying they are working on the issues and it's taking longer than they thought. http://thesims2.ea.com/ if you're interested.

It would be nice to be afforded the same courtesy, but I'm hoping it's all interrelated an everything will come back soon.

[HipMaestro]

I for one do not need to witness the Weather Channel touts tell me it's going to rain or that it IS raining.  Empirical data is only necessary if you do not have enough instinct to discern cause and effect.  Neither optimism nor pessimism can cloud the events themselves and allow one to extrapolate a most-likely consequence based on the events themselves.  Handicappers do it all the time.

I feel most sympathy for those builders/designers of PWs and utilities who have vested so much effort, passion and drive into a pasttime that they have come to rely on for gratification.  There are always other games to satsfy our leisure but none so compelling (to me, anyway) as this game.  I can't help but wonder what exactly might be going on in the minds of the EA designers trying to replicate the phenomenon somehow, in some way... the magical allure that NWN had on the gaming world.  Lotsa luck, EA!  There is likely no recipe for such serendipity by regimented product evaluation.

I really believe, whole-heartedly, that all of us were priviledged to experience one the greatest abberations of D&D electronic gaming ever.  It should be interesting to see if the anomaly ever repeats itself in the future (well, in MY future anyway).

Modifié par HipMaestro, 30 juillet 2011 - 06:27 .

[Keviant]

MrZork wrote...
I have no idea what EA/Bioware plans to do about this and what the timeline is. And, I have no expertise in dealing with network security issues. I am anxious to see the old boards and the MP authorization server come back online. I don't know if it's been long enough to fix the problems, but I know that we could have gotten some sort of update, whether it had an estimate for things coming back online or merely said it was being worked on (or wasn't, as the case may be).

I get what you mean and I agree but we're talking about Bioware. They set high standards for themselves overall and they've always given us an update of even a little progress or describe thoroughly about whether things are bad or et cetera before people start worrying or make it a big deal.

I don't think that the damage is simple to fix. In fact, I know it's a straight kick to the shin or worst. But this time, just silence for a long while which is very unlikely of Bioware and the last update was "Hey, we got hacked. We took down the master server to retool a new server. Thank you for your patience.". Also, as how EA been rubbing on what it owns; I wouldn't be suprised if they did told or forced everyone at Bioware to start giving the cold shoulder. Besides, I recall reading old posts about they would update us if they progressed.

I did buy Dragon Age for the exact same reason as you did even though it was a complete cracked bust of former glory and I will wait for the old boards and the servers to be back as much as all of us blokes. However, it just seems all too coincidental and Mass Effect 3 is taking too much spotlight. Regardless, I wish all of us a good life. I'll be checking constantly.

[MrZork]

HipMaestro, I have no problem with opinions informed by intuition and experience. Oftentimes, a guess or assumption based on what we've seen happen before or an instinctive evaluation of what someone has said (or not said) is all we have to go on. However, when someone claims to know this or that particular thing, to me it implies a level of confidence that should be supportable by something a little more concrete.

That's why I don't say that I know EA/Bioware is working on fixing any of these things. I don't have any idea. They've said that they are and I'd like to believe that, but without at least some verbal indication of progress after such an interval, it's perfectly reasonable to doubt it and consider the possibility that they aren't and perhaps don't even intend to. It's also a possibility that they are working on it and making great progress, but that it is simply a more involved task than we here are used to seeing and they've decided not to say anything until it's done. And, it could be anything in between. If this thread were full of people declaring that the server is about to come back online and proclaiming the glorious accomplishments of EA/Bioware in dealing with the attack, I would be questioning how they know that, too.

That's the situation as I see it: We really just don't know. I would love it if someone with some information or expertise that lends some confidence to any of the speculation we've seen here were to post their knowledge or expert evaluation. But, we haven't seen a whole lot of that. When someone makes a solid claim, I think it's generally a useful habit to step back and ask, "How would this person actually know that? Is this really a pretty solid conclusion that I should count on, or is it a guess, possibly reflecting a mood or bias as much as anything else?" Particularly when someone makes a statement that reinforces our own gut instincts (and, believe it or not, I am generally very sympathetic to the skepticism expressed in this thread), it's important not to take someone else's equally (un)informed opinion as an extra solid data point that confirms our own. Standing in a room full of people with the same opinion that I have doesn't actually make my opinion any more likely to be correct unless they are basing it on better information or analysis than I am.

Anyway, it's frustrating not to know and I think it's a poor decision by EA/Bioware not to keep the lines of communication open. I agree entirely that people running PWs and playing on them are hardest hit by the server problem and probably most put out by the lack of an update from EA/Bioware. Right now, IMO, it's best to focus on workarounds to the authentication issues and other problems and hope that the people who actually know what's going on decide to cut us in on the scoop.

Modifié par MrZork, 30 juillet 2011 - 11:28 .

[MrZork]

Keviant, I agree that Bioware has set impressive standards for support and that can make loyal fans feel all the more betrayed when a situation arises when there is little indication they are dealing with it. I also recall some mention in the thread regarding the legacy forums that they would let us know when more information was available.

FWIW, I actually have enjoyed DA:O (I knew going in that it wasn't really going to be a D&D game) and I pretty much think my trust that Bioware would develop a good game was justified. But, I just haven't had enough time to finish it. I wish Bioware/EA good luck with Mass Effect, but I really haven't developed a taste for shooters and, because of similar time-constraint issues, I don't know when I would be able to try them out.

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

FunkySwerve wrote...

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Zork, you're full of it. 

If by it, you mean common sense, then I completely agree. He's one of the sole rational voices in this thread. But clearly, whining and harping has been a very effictive strategem for eliciting responses to your inquiries from Bioware/EA thus far, so by all means, don't let a little rationality stop you.

Funky

If we were dealing with Bioware I'd agree with you. But...

1. We're not dealing with Bioware. This isn't Bioware any more. It's EA now, and EA is notorius for it's unresponsive support. When dealing with crappy support the squeaky wheel gets greased. I realize that I alone cannot influence this issue, but I submit to you if this entire community dedicated itself to the matter by "harping and whining" a little more publically we might be able to get some answers. As is the lord high mucky mucks at EA are being perfectly reasonable in assuming that if they just ignore us long enough we'll just go away (FYI... Not happening).

2. I'm not a man that easily contains his anger. When I'm pissed off I express it. If I don't I'm prone to venting at innocent people arpund me, so my policy is to directly confront whatever's pissing me off. I have no intention of venting elswhere. Bio is pissing me off, Bio gets to hear about it.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:22 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Well they shoved this game under "legacy" games right.

So I guess no one is getting much payed to deal with this game.

Just hoping the master server will get up sooner or later...or another explanation on the situation ASAP(!).

We might have to wait a bit more as many are having their summer vacation now.

Just a side note: At my work no work has been able to be done because the network has been down for a week and maybe will be more...lol...summer times...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 31 juillet 2011 - 01:19 .

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

So, how many PW's have gone down permanently because the master server no longer exists? With all the anger and frustration being exhibited in this thread, you'd think there weren't any left.