294 réponses à ce sujet

[Keviant]

Elhanan wrote...

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

If I caught anyone in my company treating my customers the way EA treats theirs I'd fire them on the spot.

No doubt that you would do it; seen hundreds of employers like this over the years. Always right; always impatient, and unwilling to listen. They are the ones who cause the delays in lines everywhere because they have the uninalienable right to complain, and by Thor's rubber hammer, they are going to do it. As regular as other hot blowholes seen in Yellowstone.

As for now, back to gaming.....

Actually, Activision Blizzard is richer than Electronic Arts and their customer support is far better. It's just by choice. It's just by business logic to ignore several sects of your customers to earn more by attracting the bigger crowd.

Anyways, we should still get the petition running. Spread this and get as many people to help out or join our cause.

FOR EVERYONE: Go to Page 7 and read the SECOND last Post. Thank you for your Time.

Modifié par Keviant, 01 août 2011 - 02:47 .

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Count your blessings that your not on my staff, Elhanan. Of course you couldn't be, because we design websites for professionals and with your skill set... well... we just don't have that many toilets to clean.  But customer service is our number one priority. Anyone who has a problem with that is shown the door. In less than 10 years this policy has taken us from being a minor player with less than a hundred clients to being the undisputed leader in our industry with more than 5000 loyal subscribers.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 01 août 2011 - 03:04 .

[Elhanan]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Count your blessings that your not on my staff, Elhanan. Of course you couldn't be, because we design websites for professionals and with your skill set... well... we just don't have that many toilets to clean.  But customer service is our number one priority. Anyone who has a problem with that is shown the door. In less than 10 years this policy has taken us from being a minor player with less than a hundred clients to being the undisputed leader in our industry with more than 5000 loyal subscribers.

I do indeed count myself among the blessed. Being placed on the edge of a precipice of unemployement as a daily event is hardly the job position I seek, let alone work for those that consider themselves omnicient, and sound their own horns of succcess as standard events. And my guess for all the clean toilets is that your 'Yes folks' make them rather obsolete....

As for the others that appear ready to grab torches and pitchforks, have a good day storming the castle. I will wait patiently here playing NWN1 and other Bioware titles.

Modifié par Elhanan, 01 août 2011 - 04:00 .

[WebShaman]

Although I am often at the other end of discussions as Urk, I can only add my support for his view of Customer Support - companies that treat their customers right remain a leading force among a sea of other-minded businesses.

I can liken that with the outstanding Customer Support that Logitech provides to it's customers, as opposed to that of Sony.

As a result, Logitech has retained it's longstanding name for quality products and superb Customer Support. Sony on the other hand...

If Logitech was to suddenly "change face", they would quickly find themselves with a serious problem. And this, sad to say, is what Bioware seems to be doing now.

We are your customers, Bioware. We have followed you from way back, because you always showed us that you did care, and showed us that your customers were important to you. We rewarded you with our loyalty and purchases.

Why are you changing this now? You may reap rewards in the short term, but in the long term, you will lose that which you literally spent decades building. A huge, valuable investment cast away...

Looks like EA wins this one. And when the dust has settled, they will just cast off the sucked out shell, and us along with it.

[Elhanan]

@WebShaman - What do you mean by we, Paleface?

This client is fine with waiting; still able to play, and still see my other Bioware games patched and serviced regularly. You and others may wish to ride into the valley to battle against the imagined foe known as EA, but I am good remaining here playing games that still work fine.

Modifié par Elhanan, 01 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

We loved Bioware. Love, in case it defies your Vulcan sensibilities, is what us plain-old human beings call an "emotion".

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of emotions in the human condition. I'm only trying to make a point that should be obvious if one can just step back for a moment and take in a larger view. It's not like EA has completely removed our ability to play this game we all love and are so passionate about. After 10 years of more support than any gaming community has a right to expect for a single game, all they've done is cause a minor inconvenience for the average player. Yes, it's a little more involved for PW hosts and their staff, but for the average player it's 10 seconds more to log in, and then maybe having to type a password. It's not the end of the world, or even the end of our game. Okay... so they haven't taken the time to communicate with us. So what? We can still play our game. After all Bioware has done for the NWN gaming community over the years, they truly don't "owe" us anything. Not even a comment. I don't feel we are "entitled" to any more than they've already given.

But, you folks who are inclined to do so can continue to vent your anger and frustraiton over your perceived abandonment. I, and a few others, choose to be grateful for the huge amount of support that has already been given, and just play on. 

[WebShaman]

This isn't an issue of being able to play vs not being able to play (though for some, surely the Online condition at this time is a problem).

This is about Customer Support as it was, compared to what it has become.

This is also not about continuing support for NWN - though a nice fantasy, I think most of us are more than aware that no more official support for NWN is forthcoming, or feasible.

This IS about retaining that which we, the Community, has created thus far - the huge, very valuable Legacy forums and all the information that it contains. And being kept informed of progress on that, positive or negative, is very valuable.

In fact, Bioware has always in the past kept us informed. This is the first time that such has not been forthcoming.

And that is the critical part of what I am objecting to here. How we are being treated. Not "oh woes, no more support for NWN *sniff, sniff*" or somesuch.

I continue to play on, to create, etc. But I am not putting on the blinders as a few are doing here.

[Tremayne7]

Keviant wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

If I caught anyone in my company treating my customers the way EA treats theirs I'd fire them on the spot.

No doubt that you would do it; seen hundreds of employers like this over the years. Always right; always impatient, and unwilling to listen. They are the ones who cause the delays in lines everywhere because they have the uninalienable right to complain, and by Thor's rubber hammer, they are going to do it. As regular as other hot blowholes seen in Yellowstone.

As for now, back to gaming.....

Actually, Activision Blizzard is richer than Electronic Arts and their customer support is far better. It's just by choice. It's just by business logic to ignore several sects of your customers to earn more by attracting the bigger crowd.

Anyways, we should still get the petition running. Spread this and get as many people to help out or join our cause.

FOR EVERYONE: Go to Page 7 and read the SECOND last Post. Thank you for your Time.

So where do we wish to post this? And what should it say? 

[FunkySwerve]

WebShaman wrote...

Hmmm. This is the first time that I am at odds with Funky here. There USED to be a big difference in how Bioware dealt with their fans. With their customers.

As I have indicated, those here are not just "old customers", but also new, repeating ones. Being treated like we currently are, after the quality treatment that we used to get, is just bad customer relations (especially since it is far more cost effective to have someone post down here, just to keep us "satisfied and cozy" instead of giving us the cold shoulder).

So are you truly saying here that you and I are no longer worth the time it takes to post here? And that you support that?

Truly?

I find that hard to believe.

I'm just being pragmatic about it. I always expected this to happen at some point, and 10 years is a damn good run. They went way beyond the call, and the company doesn't even exist anymore as a standalone entity.

I'm a pinko commie liberal, but the economics of this are a no-brainer. To argue that bioware owes us anything at this stage of the game's life is...incomprehensible to me, and smacks of a sense of unwarranted entitlement.

Economics, by the way, is also the reason you're unlikely to see another toolset-based game like NWN...unless one of us makes it.

Funky

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Wow. You people would miss the point if you were skewered by a church steeple.

Please scrape the crap out of your ears and try listen very carefully...

This is not about NWN.

It's a MUCH bigger issue.

It's NOT just NWN that's suffering from this neglect. I personally have paid for a ton of DLC in newer titles that just didn't work, and dealing with EA support was useless. These kids were IDIOTS. After 5 emails they failed to send me a link to a single solution that I hadn't already found in their help database myself. When they ran out of links they just started sending the old ones over again. The problem isn't on my rig. The problem is that when the game client logs into my bio account it's not authenticating the DLC I've paid for.

The experience was insufferable. No solution was ever found, because no solution was ever seriously looked for.

As far as NWN is concerned, if EA doesn't want to fix the authentication server FINE. I mean I'd rather they did but if not we can find our own solutions.

All anyone is asking for is that EA show us the frigging courtesy of telling us what's going on. Nobody here is complaining because the server hasn't been fixed. It has nothing to do with economics. This is about the disrespect EA is showing us by leaving us hanging.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 02 août 2011 - 04:23 .

[Elhanan]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Wow. You people would miss the point if you were skewered by a church steeple.

Please scrape the crap out of your ears and try listen very carefully...

This is not about NWN.

It's a MUCH bigger issue.

It's NOT just NWN that's suffering from this neglect. I personally have paid for a ton of DLC in newer titles that just didn't work, and dealing with EA support was useless. These kids were IDIOTS. After 5 emails they failed to send me a link to a single solution that I hadn't already found in their help database myself. When they ran out of links they just started sending the old ones over again. The problem isn't on my rig. The problem is that when the game client logs into my bio account it's not authenticating the DLC I've paid for.

The experience was insufferable. No solution was ever found, because no solution was ever seriously looked for.

As far as NWN is concerned, if EA doesn't want to fix the authentication server FINE. I mean I'd rather they did but if not we can find our own solutions.

All anyone is asking for is that EA show us the frigging courtesy of telling us what's going on. Nobody here is complaining because the server hasn't been fixed. It has nothing to do with economics. This is about the disrespect EA is showing us by leaving us hanging.

Such a grasp on one's temper; must be like trying to catch fog. I imagine the experience was quite insufferable, as you appear to hold little respect for anyone (and guessing anything) beyond your narrow scope of personal vision.

Helpful hint: If you wish to draw respect, you might wish to make a deposit of it to others along the way.

[Pstemarie]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

It's NOT just NWN that's suffering from this neglect. I personally have paid for a ton of DLC in newer titles that just didn't work, and dealing with EA support was useless. These kids were IDIOTS. After 5 emails they failed to send me a link to a single solution that I hadn't already found in their help database myself. When they ran out of links they just started sending the old ones over again. The problem isn't on my rig. The problem is that when the game client logs into my bio account it's not authenticating the DLC I've paid for.

Glad I'm not the only one that has had problems with DLC not authenticating. I just went through the ordeal of setting up a new computer and reinstalling NWN, NWN2, and DAO. Everything went smooth until I got to the DAO DLC - it all installed but none of it would authenticate. After following the instructions provided by Tech Support (if you can call it that) I wiped the DAO install and figured I'd count my losses. Fortunately, a few days later I found a backup of my DAO folder (with all the saves and DLC) from the original PC I had installed it on. I reinstalled the game and voila...it works.

My question is...why can't EA get a simple thing like this right? Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that most games will get reinstalled at some point. In the case of DAO you should just be able to reinstall the game, redownload the DLC, and authenticate it. Why is it that something so simple is a massive FAILURE?

The answer is simple - insufficient capacity to process technical support issues. Due to downsizing most large companies no longer have the capacity to deal with the volume of support demanded by their customers. This is why you'll sit on hold for 30 minutes or more, email responses are slower than snail mail, or you get greeted by silence.

The bottom line is simple. EA has to prioritze things - devoting a large portion of its resources (which includes BioWare) to providing support for its current line of products. NWN is NOT a current product and therefore any support for it will be provided when its convenient for EA to allow BioWare to do so. All the whining and complaining in the world is not going to get them to move faster. They'll fix it when they fix it.

Now a parting story about my uncle - who just can't seem to let go of old appliances. Last month his 30+ year old fridge died, so my uncle calls a retired friend of his that used to work for Sears. After looking over the fridge they find the faulty part - some sort of relay. My uncle gets out the manual and calls the 800 number in the back. To his dismay the number is no longer in service. After I don't how many calls to 411 and local appliance stores, he finally tracks down the new number for the appliance company and calls. He gets patched through to the service department and after a lengthy discussion is told that they simply cannot help him because the fridge is too old and they no longer service that product.

So, my uncle being the man he is...calls back. This time he asks for the Service Department and gives them the part number listed in his manual for the relay. The company has one in stock, he gives them his debit card number, and hangs up quite gratified in superiority to "stupid kids that just don't listen." Almost two weeks go by and the part finally arrives...a small metal bracket - NOT a relay like he was expecting.

Seems that appliance manufacturers recycle part numbers. My point - Is it neglectful to stop support for a product you no longer market?

Modifié par Pstemarie, 02 août 2011 - 06:48 .

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Elhanan wrote...

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Snip

Such a grasp on one's temper; must be like trying to catch fog. I imagine the experience was quite insufferable, as you appear to hold little respect for anyone (and guessing anything) beyond your narrow scope of personal vision.

Helpful hint: If you wish to draw respect, you might wish to make a deposit of it to others along the way.

In future please do not embellish or edit my quotes. If you need to snip, snip, but quote me in context.

As for my temper, yeah, it's shorter than a cat's tail in a lumberyard. It serves me well. I've never backed down from a fight. I've won a few. I've lost a few. But I've always had an iron fist around my temper. In the end I was never the one that did time. Well... at least not for fighting. I've spent a few weekends in county for disoderly conduct.

I have very little tolerance for the pussified "modern male". A man who's afraid to get his ass whupped is no man. If that offends your metrosexual sensibilities, well... we just shouldn't be drinking buddies.

What is it with people today that they think they should be respected by default? Respect is earned, not handed out like Halloween candy. There are people I respect, people I don't, and people I'm still sizing up. If I respect them, I care what they think. Otherwise I don't give a damn.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 02 août 2011 - 08:07 .

[Elhanan]

^ Beginning to see the problem: serious design flaw in a self-made man....

For the record, I prefer meek to weak. Meekness is not modern; nor is is it a lack of strength. It is reigned courage and strength, much like a well trained horse; still full of spirit, but under control.

And you are right about this; you are not worth quoting.

As for the server, I respect Bioware enough to wait for replies and answers; they have earned it.

[PlasmaJohn]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

All anyone is asking for is that EA show us the frigging courtesy of telling us what's going on. Nobody here is complaining because the server hasn't been fixed. It has nothing to do with economics. This is about the disrespect EA is showing us by leaving us hanging.

QFT

This is exactly what has former fans up in arms.  Had they had the common decency to say "Hey guys, we can no longer support the Master Server" most people would have accepted that.  The silence just affirms EA's reputation.

[Elhanan]

PlasmaJohn wrote...

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

All anyone is asking for is that EA show us the frigging courtesy of telling us what's going on. Nobody here is complaining because the server hasn't been fixed. It has nothing to do with economics. This is about the disrespect EA is showing us by leaving us hanging.

QFT

This is exactly what has former fans up in arms.  Had they had the common decency to say "Hey guys, we can no longer support the Master Server" most people would have accepted that.  The silence just affirms EA's reputation.

Then I suggest you re-read the Bioware OP, or do y'all actually believe this thread started and stickied itself....

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

 Some puppies just refuse to be weened. They're absolutely certain that teet's supposed to be available to them for the rest of their lives.

Some people never quite come to grips with the fact that when their mommy told them they were special, she meant they were special to her and not the rest of the world. They go through their entire lives believing it's all about them. 

Well here's a wakeup call. Ya got nothin' comin'. Whinin' wont put fresh milk in that dried up old teet, and snivelin' won't make you special to the rest of the world. You'd best get over it and move on. 

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Elhanan AGAIN you presume too much. I never could have gotten where I am in my life without the help of a lot of other people. Our business wouldn't be worth a plug nickle without the wonderful staff we've put together. I've gotten legs up from a lot of people when times were bad. I have a wonderful wife and family, and most of all I have the grace of God and the love of Jesus Christ to thank for my life. I am neither an Island, nor a self made man.

I also have respect for the meek. You gotta watch the quiet ones! But I ain't one of the quiet ones. People mistake, as you say, meek for weak, and I find letting it all hang out prevents a lot of black eyes and split knuckles.

But letting someone treat you like crap is a sure sign that someone doesn't respect themself, and if you have no respect for yourself I'd be a fool to respect you.

Gregor before blowing the same tired rhetoric you've been repeating for this entire thread would you mind doing us the courtesy of actually reading a few other posts? 

Nobody is asking for anything but an update.

And as paying customers (not just of NWN but also of a number of more recent titles), even just as active members of this community, we ARE owed that much.

We're all grown-ups here. Well... most of us. We understand that EA may have made a conscious decision not to fix the master server. If that's the case, FINE. We'll work around it. But grow some balls for God's sake. Just tell us what's going on.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 02 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[Failed.Bard]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

 Some puppies just refuse to be weened. They're absolutely certain that teet's supposed to be available to them for the rest of their lives.

Some people never quite come to grips with the fact that when their mommy told them they were special, she meant they were special to her and not the rest of the world. They go through their entire lives believing it's all about them. 

Well here's a wakeup call. Ya got nothin' comin'. Whinin' wont put fresh milk in that dried up old teet, and snivelin' won't make you special to the rest of the world. You'd best get over it and move on. 

Actually, this is still half right.  While actively selling a game still that they themselves have pulled the means to authenticate is morally questionable, I doubt it's actually anything that they're legally obligated to provide.

  The opposite of your statement is also true though.  EA/Bioware isn't owed anything by the people that have supported them in the past either.  That's just the nature of business.  They make a product and sell it, customers buy it or they don't, nothing is owed either way.

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Failed.Bard wrote...

Actually, this is still half right.  While actively selling a game still that they themselves have pulled the means to authenticate is morally questionable, I doubt it's actually anything that they're legally obligated to provide.

The opposite of your statement is also true though.  EA/Bioware isn't owed anything by the people that have supported them in the past either.  That's just the nature of business.  They make a product and sell it, customers buy it or they don't, nothing is owed either way.

There's actually  no moral problem with the GOG and Steam sales without the master server up. The game can still be installed and played without authentication. It's effectively disabled the DRM, but not the game. It has a profound effect on the MultiPlayer side for server admins, and it's easy for other players to log into MP using your username which can be a huge hassle, but it's nothing the community can't work around.

Unfortunately your assessment of the EA business model is spot on, but it didn't used to be. There was a sincere loyalty to Bioware in the not too distant past, and Bioware sincerely reciprocated that loyalty with exceptional support and communication. I once felt a real sense of loyalty to the bioware brand. I actually bought ME and ME2, breaking a long standing boycott I've maintained against EA products, before I had a computer that could run them because I wanted to support Bioware's independence a during the EA takeover.

That loyalty is gone. My boycott of EA games stands, and now that boycott includes Bioware titles too. Mind you I don't expect that will matter much. I suspect shortly after old republic delivers Bioware will be shut down.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 02 août 2011 - 10:07 .

[taltamir]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...
There's actually  no moral problem with the GOG and Steam sales without the master server up. The game can still be installed and played without authentication. It's effectively disabled the DRM, but not the game.

I have purchased ALL the premium modules from the bioware store and none of them are working. This is because they require online activation every time you run the module OR load a saved game (so it verifies multiple times during a single playthrough) from a now non existing server.

I have repurchased the game via GOG not too long ago to support GOG to do away with the CDs.
That gives me access to SOME of the premium modules offline because it inclues the kingmaker CD version of said premium modules (Kingmaker, Shadowguard, and Witch's Wake.).
People who bought kingmaker CD release or GOG version have access to kingmaker, shadowguard, and witch's wake. People who bought those modules via bioware store do not have access to it. I bought it via BOTH and can only use the DRM free version nowadays.

And people who bought Infinite Dungeons, Pirates of the Sword Coast, or Wyvern Crown of Cormyr. All do not have access to their purchased software. I wanted to replay pirates of the sword coast the other day AND COULD NOT becuase the servers are down and the DRM refuses to allow me to play my legally purchased single player game.

This is merely a sign of things to come. Eventually my legally purchased copy of mass effect and dragon age will likewise not work anymore. They NEED to release a patch to remove said DRM from said single player modules for the people who spent the money to buy it. Taking the server down in such a manner and not providing DRM free patches is the reason I will not be buying ME3 and DA2+

Modifié par taltamir, 02 août 2011 - 11:37 .

[Lord Sullivan]

Elhanan wrote...

Such a grasp on one's temper; must be like trying to catch fog. I imagine the experience was quite insufferable, as you appear to hold little respect for anyone (and guessing anything) beyond your narrow scope of personal vision.

Helpful hint: If you wish to draw respect, you might wish to make a deposit of it to others along the way.

Why don't you start by seing where you're wrong and remedy it yourself before attempting to chastise others.

Quite ironic, you make assumptions, accuse others of delivering on those assumptions when you're totaly off track... badda bam badda boom! what a joke!

[Elhanan]

Lord Sullivan wrote...

Why don't you start by seing where you're wrong and remedy it yourself before attempting to chastise others.

Quite ironic, you make assumptions, accuse others of delivering on those assumptions when you're totaly off track... badda bam badda boom! what a joke!

I admit to mistakes; thought I was wrong once, but I wasn't....

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Taltamir is quite right. Installing premium mods requires authentication and you won't be able to install them unless EA fixes the authentication server. Frankly that's one of the reasons I never bought most of them. But since those mods are no longer sold or even supported I don't think it's particularly egregious ethically to continue to sell the platinum version of the game without authentication.

Still it would be nice to be able to use the one premium mod I did buy. If EA doesn't want to fix the authentication server they could easily disable the DRM on the server side by allowing it to authenticate all inquiries. There are also some other ways to get around the authentication process that may be legally questionable but are also IMO, in the case of abandonware that you've paid for, ethically justifiable.

[Elhanan]

Atari may be involved with the lack of Premium mod support; uncertain. I believe they are a main reason behind much of the difficulty in getting them initially.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 08:29 .