24 réponses à ce sujet

[Dane Seagal]

I always felt that categorising the main missions in Mass Effect 1 as ''Race Against Time'' in the journal was a little weird. Yes, a race against time. Hold on mr.time, I need to dance in flux, cheat on slot machines and give Wrex his family armor back.

Mass Effect 2 was a little better in this regard. You could argue that Shep should hurry up to save as many colonists as he can. On the other hand, it is a dangerous, possibly suicidal mission, and it is best to prepare for that mission... That means loyalty quests so people are focused, lots of probing to upgrade the ship, and with a little handwaving we can argue that sidemissions enhance the squad's combat abilities before the big fight with the Collectors.

Mass Effect 3 will have sidemissions again I assume. It'll just be more, or most difficult to justify. The galaxy is at war. Dismantling mercenary operations and especially awkward Shep-dancing are downgraded on the priority list. So will all the sidemissions somehow relate to the Reapers? Will you gather resources that way? How will they pace the game... or will we get another fake ''race against time''? Just wondering.

[streamlock]

I've been thinking a little about this myself. How can that be done without railing the player to a linear mission structure. Or a more linear one I should say. How do you pace it without cutting planet/galaxy exploration and side-questing? I don't know if their is a good solution for this.

I was even thinking that the trial at the beginning of the game would be a nice place to see all your actions-who you offed/saved/mutilated whatever-brought up and thrown in your face.

But I think the...ehm....new Bioware developer's mantra specifically forbids an hour long exposition at the beginning of a game before seeing some action. What was ME2's, 20 minutes I think? Guess that's not to bad.

On that note-in ME2, I found that I would unconsciously prioritize one mission-like Miranda's loyalty mission because a life might be at stake over lets say Subject Zero's because that one could just wait. It was never enforced in game however. Not that I could tell.

[shadowreflexion]

Dane Seagal wrote...

I always felt that categorising the main missions in Mass Effect 1 as ''Race Against Time'' in the journal was a little weird. Yes, a race against time. Hold on mr.time, I need to dance in flux, cheat on slot machines and give Wrex his family armor back.

Mass Effect 2 was a little better in this regard. You could argue that Shep should hurry up to save as many colonists as he can. On the other hand, it is a dangerous, possibly suicidal mission, and it is best to prepare for that mission... That means loyalty quests so people are focused, lots of probing to upgrade the ship, and with a little handwaving we can argue that sidemissions enhance the squad's combat abilities before the big fight with the Collectors.

Mass Effect 3 will have sidemissions again I assume. It'll just be more, or most difficult to justify. The galaxy is at war. Dismantling mercenary operations and especially awkward Shep-dancing are downgraded on the priority list. So will all the sidemissions somehow relate to the Reapers? Will you gather resources that way? How will they pace the game... or will we get another fake ''race against time''? Just wondering.

Hopefully, time won't play a factor in the game. If it did, then one of the core meanings of RPG is seriously gone. Exploration has to be there. The way that I'm approaching the "galaxy at war" situation and side missions woven together is by thinking that just like in war there will be chances to sabotage certain groups. Maybe cause a sedition in directly or directly depending on Rene/Para options? 

ME3 can be ruined by the little things such as forcing mission progression. One of the biggest gripes I had in ME2 was feeling like I was on a leash. Whatever BW does, I just hope that since it is the end, the players are allowed complete autonomy.

[rocketsauce v2]

been wondering how side missions will be relevant myself for quite a while.

[AlanC9]

shadowreflexion wrote...

Hopefully, time won't play a factor in the game. If it did, then one of the core meanings of RPG is seriously gone. Exploration has to be there.

And this is why the RPG genre needs to die.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 juin 2011 - 10:01 .

[onelifecrisis]

shadowreflexion wrote...

Hopefully, time won't play a factor in the game. If it did, then one of the core meanings of RPG is seriously gone.

Did you really have to word it like that?
Bye bye thread.

On-topic: personally I hope they leave out all of this side-quest garbage. We can still have autonomy in deciding which main story quest we do next; we don't need pointless exploration or NPCs that stay in one place forever pestering Shepard to do same-room fetch quests for them.

[shadowreflexion]

AlanC9 wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

Hopefully, time won't play a factor in the game. If it did, then one of the core meanings of RPG is seriously gone. Exploration has to be there.

And this is why the RPG genre needs to die.

I know how argumentative you like to be in your replies so please explain the scrapping of a genre according to you. RPGs need to die because of? Or do you mean the RPG element should be taken out of ME3? Please explain.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
And this is why the RPG genre needs to die.

I wouldn't go so far. I don't think you'll neccesarily get a concensus that exploration is the core value of an RPG (if someone had to pick one)

[In Exile]

shadowreflexion wrote...
I know how argumentative you like to be in your replies so please explain the scrapping of a genre according to you. RPGs need to die because of? Or do you mean the RPG element should be taken out of ME3? Please explain.

The point, rather, would be that if exploration of the side-quest sort is a staple of RPGs, then the problem is the RPG genre as a whole, because that feature is just plain bad.

[shadowreflexion]

onelifecrisis wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

Hopefully, time won't play a factor in the game. If it did, then one of the core meanings of RPG is seriously gone.

Did you really have to word it like that?
Bye bye thread.

On-topic: personally I hope they leave out all of this side-quest garbage. We can still have autonomy in deciding which main story quest we do next; we don't need pointless exploration or NPCs that stay in one place forever pestering Shepard to do same-room fetch quests for them.

Is it not one of the things that make an RPG an RPG? The element of exploration without restriction. Certain missions that are timed, in other threads I've expressed a support of but the main mission itself? I can't see the reason behind limiting what you can do by having time attached to it. I suppose the best way I can explain is by using the first Dead Rising. Game was cool, story alright but the in game clock was ridiculous. Back on topic, one of the core meanings to an RPG is freedom though, right? Hopefully, people won't use that to turn this topic into something other than answering the questions of the OP.

[onelifecrisis]

shadowreflexion wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

Hopefully, time won't play a factor in the game. If it did, then one of the core meanings of RPG is seriously gone.

Did you really have to word it like that?
Bye bye thread.

On-topic: personally I hope they leave out all of this side-quest garbage. We can still have autonomy in deciding which main story quest we do next; we don't need pointless exploration or NPCs that stay in one place forever pestering Shepard to do same-room fetch quests for them.

Is it not one of the things that make an RPG an RPG? The element of exploration without restriction. Certain missions that are timed, in other threads I've expressed a support of but the main mission itself? I can't see the reason behind limiting what you can do by having time attached to it. I suppose the best way I can explain is by using the first Dead Rising. Game was cool, story alright but the in game clock was ridiculous. Back on topic, one of the core meanings to an RPG is freedom though, right? Hopefully, people won't use that to turn this topic into something other than answering the questions of the OP.

Re: the bold bit. If that's what you want, I (politely) suggest sticking with "I would like exploration and I think it could be made to work with the story by [x y z]" rather than "if there's no exploration then it's not an RPG".

Re: the rest. The lack of exploration does not imply a time limit. You can have a set number of main story missions without there being any sort of timer on them, and without forcing the player to do them in a specific order.

[shadowreflexion]

onelifecrisis wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

Hopefully, time won't play a factor in the game. If it did, then one of the core meanings of RPG is seriously gone.

Did you really have to word it like that?
Bye bye thread.

On-topic: personally I hope they leave out all of this side-quest garbage. We can still have autonomy in deciding which main story quest we do next; we don't need pointless exploration or NPCs that stay in one place forever pestering Shepard to do same-room fetch quests for them.

Is it not one of the things that make an RPG an RPG? The element of exploration without restriction. Certain missions that are timed, in other threads I've expressed a support of but the main mission itself? I can't see the reason behind limiting what you can do by having time attached to it. I suppose the best way I can explain is by using the first Dead Rising. Game was cool, story alright but the in game clock was ridiculous. Back on topic, one of the core meanings to an RPG is freedom though, right? Hopefully, people won't use that to turn this topic into something other than answering the questions of the OP.

Re: the bold bit. If that's what you want, I (politely) suggest sticking with "I would like exploration and I think it could be made to work with the story by [x y z]" rather than "if there's no exploration then it's not an RPG".

Re: the rest. The lack of exploration does not imply a time limit. You can have a set number of main story missions without there being any sort of timer on them, and without forcing the player to do them in a specific order.

Ahhh, I understand what you're saying.

[In Exile]

shadowreflexion wrote...
Is it not one of the things that make an RPG an RPG? The element of exploration without restriction.

No. If you ask me, it's what makes a game a rental instead of a buy.

Certain missions that are timed, in other threads I've expressed a support of but the main mission itself?

I don't think that exploration is any more or less aggravating that timed missions. Besides, a reasonabel timer would be based on the # of quests that you do. If you want to go around the galaxy and find missing pairs of boots, well, people die.

I can't see the reason behind limiting what you can do by having time attached to it. I suppose the best way I can explain is by using the first Dead Rising. Game was cool, story alright but the in game clock was ridiculous. Back on topic, one of the core meanings to an RPG is freedom though, right? Hopefully, people won't use that to turn this topic into something other than answering the questions of the OP.

I would say the core meaning to an RPG is role-play, and whether or not that means freedom to explore is a can of worms I don't really want to touch.

[shadowreflexion]

In Exile wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...
Is it not one of the things that make an RPG an RPG? The element of exploration without restriction.

No. If you ask me, it's what makes a game a rental instead of a buy.

Certain missions that are timed, in other threads I've expressed a support of but the main mission itself?

I don't think that exploration is any more or less aggravating that timed missions. Besides, a reasonabel timer would be based on the # of quests that you do. If you want to go around the galaxy and find missing pairs of boots, well, people die.

I can't see the reason behind limiting what you can do by having time attached to it. I suppose the best way I can explain is by using the first Dead Rising. Game was cool, story alright but the in game clock was ridiculous. Back on topic, one of the core meanings to an RPG is freedom though, right? Hopefully, people won't use that to turn this topic into something other than answering the questions of the OP.

I would say the core meaning to an RPG is role-play, and whether or not that means freedom to explore is a can of worms I don't really want to touch.

True but I stated that it was in fact one of the core meanings. Not placing emphasis on what defines an RPG in its totality.

[In Exile]

shadowreflexion wrote...
True but I stated that it was in fact one of the core meanings. Not placing emphasis on what defines an RPG in its totality.

Like I said: I would say that exploration is the antithesis of an RPG, with the more exploration you have the less of an RPG it is.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
And this is why the RPG genre needs to die.

I wouldn't go so far. I don't think you'll neccesarily get a concensus that exploration is the core value of an RPG (if someone had to pick one)

Yep. I was trading clarity for snark.

More seriously, if this is how we define RPG then the genre needs to be renamed, not exterminated. The substance of the OP's complaint is that exploration is making the role-playing worse. If core gameplay elements of an RPG, like exploration or inventory, are at best irrelevant to role-playing and at worst damage role-playing, then it isn't sensible to call them Role Playing Games.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

I would say the core meaning to an RPG is role-play, and whether or not that means freedom to explore is a can of worms I don't really want to touch.

I'll open that one.

I think the answer is entirely contingent on the plot and setting. In, for instance,  Morrowind, free exploration makes sense; you don't know anything about the world, and even when you find out what's going on there's no rush, since from the look of things Dagoth Ur is decades away from finishing Second Numidium and Vivec's still got enough juice left to keep the Ghostfence going for a while. In Fallout 1 you've got no clue where to find a water chip once the first lead craps out, and you don't know a damn thing about the state of the world outside your vault. In BG1 you don't know where to find that armored weirdo even if you thought you could take him on.

But ME isn't set up that way.

[Dangerfoot]

Exploration isn't really a primary RPG feature, although it's hardly "the opposite of an RPG". Most people don't define RPGs as completely and totally linear games with only painted hallways and no exploration whatsoever.

[In Exile]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Exploration isn't really a primary RPG feature, although it's hardly "the opposite of an RPG". Most people don't define RPGs as completely and totally linear games with only painted hallways and no exploration whatsoever.

But complex level and quest design isn't exploration. Exploration is:

''The action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to
learn about it.''

If I have to hunt through a complex ruin with multiple traps, treasures and quests because I'm chasing an evil spirit and trying to find out who it possesed, that can be a story-driven RPG.

If I have a sandbox that is a complex ruin with multiple traps, treasures and quests and I can do what I want and how I want it, that doesn't make it an RPG (in fact, if the characters in the world don't react to my presence i.e. the game is not reactive, then it isn't an RPG at all).

[Raiil]

I'm guessing a lot of the side missions will tie in directly to the main mission. Yes, some will probably be 'Getcher Eezo for that shiny core upgrade here!' but others may impact how many resources you can divert- sure, you can skip that one planet, but it has iridium, and you've got an army that needs upgrades. Or, sure, you can jet over that lone asari on a bombarded planet, but wait- she has information that can be used against the Reapers!


Something like that.

[Xeranx]

I'm of the opinion that the tag "race against time" shouldn't have come up until after you stop the Geth's staging point. Or at least when you get your first clue as to what Saren's doing.

You should have been looking anywhere and everywhere for anything that could get you a look at what Saren's plans were. This would allow for exploration and not put the issue of time on the table until when it's needed.

[In Exile]

Xeranx wrote...

I'm of the opinion that the tag "race against time" shouldn't have come up until after you stop the Geth's staging point. Or at least when you get your first clue as to what Saren's doing.

The thing is, you have 3 leads already. Personally, I always believed that the game should have gone Vermire - Theron - evidence Saren is a traitor - Noveria: Virmire: Citadel.

If the exploration part is find evidence against Saren, then that justifies exploration.

[alihou]

You know what would be a complete fail? In ME3, you have like a time clock to gather troops... I.e. 30 days left, 29 days left etc... And we have to pick and choose as to what's important to do... something like that would bother me... they kinda did it in Fable 3...

[Destroy Raiden_]

I'm not bothered by the rush rush! but then I go nope I want sidequest and I want to get drunk sorry guys take a number this could be a while. I mean they don't have random fights to motivate me to push through the main story arc the collectors had one ship the whole game, Saren didn't make a move till I got onto main quest, and the reapers won't kill say Illium until I get to mainquests mission 5 so I don't see the need to rush the main quest.

I also don't see holding off on my sidemissions and alcoholism till the end of the game when all I'll be doing is sidequest and drinking that gets boring after a while unless these sidequest lead to more boss battles with say uber evil war lords or something that extends the game there is no point playing after the game ends.

[Warkupo]

You're going to be jumping several million light years through space, there's time to do other stuff.