38 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

 Are the protheans that came to sol the real protheans or where they collector protheans? I think they were collectors, I could be wrong. They could have been "planting" for there next harvest. The Charon relay was inactive when humans found it which means that the protheans or collectors would have to shut the relay down and the only way to do that is to use the citadels main controls which only the keepers knew about. This seems to me like it could only be the collectors, but maybe Iam missing something?

What are your thoughts?

Modifié par KevShep, 23 juin 2011 - 11:14 .

[SandTrout]

It was most likely the true Protheans, not the collectors, were the ones to leave the tech on Mars.

Note that the Artifact on Eletania alluded to Protheans studying prehistoric humans, which the Collectors would have no interest in. Also, Collectors would not have established a long-term base on Mars; they would have just snagged some humans and returned to their base.

Also, the relays would have been shut down then the Reapers hit the Citadel during the Prothean purge, activating and deactivating them as necessary for transit between worlds while conducting the purge. The Mars site would have been just another Prothean world that the Reapers purged and left, leaving a deactivated relay in their wake.

[KevShep]

SandTrout wrote...

It was most likely the true Protheans, not the collectors, were the ones to leave the tech on Mars.

Note that the Artifact on Eletania alluded to Protheans studying prehistoric humans, which the Collectors would have no interest in. Also, Collectors would not have established a long-term base on Mars; they would have just snagged some humans and returned to their base.

Also, the relays would have been shut down then the Reapers hit the Citadel during the Prothean purge, activating and deactivating them as necessary for transit between worlds while conducting the purge. The Mars site would have been just another Prothean world that the Reapers purged and left, leaving a deactivated relay in their wake.

If humans had not evolved completely then the collectors would have no interest in harvesting at that time. Thats a good point a about the purge though. They do shut down the relays when they attack I forgot about that. btw where did that consort get that trinket?

[SandTrout]

How do we even know they were Protheans? Folks think any ancient technology is Prothean. It wouldn't be the first time Reaper creations were attributed to the Protheans.

The time-period is about right for the Protheans being at the height of their power, and the technology probably resembles that of other Prothean artefacts that have been recovered by the other species.

If humans had not evolved completely then the collectors would have no interest in harvesting at that time.

They would also not have a reason to expend resources on a Mars settlement and then leave it un-manned. There is no garuantee that the ruins were not a Reaper plant, but available evidence suggests otherwise. The Charon Relay would have been an adequate spring-board for our technology once were were at the adequate level advancement to find it, so they don't have a particularly good reason to build junk on Mars. Also, the Collectors have never shown a tendency to care in the least about non-FTL species.

As for the trinket, I don't think it has been revealed where or how the Consort acquired it.

Modifié par SandTrout, 24 juin 2011 - 01:57 .

[ThePwener]

If it have been the Collectors, they would have attacked the Sol colonies. No, the Aletania even with the sphere cleared it up with this statement....

"For how long did they [Protheans] watch Humanity?" or something along those lines. It wasn't the Collectors as the base found in Mars was abandoned and Collector bases were insect-like in apperance and no mention of similarities were even made in ME2.

[Bogsnot1]

Only problem with the Eletania sphere, is the time frame. Protheans vanished 50000 years ago, yet Cro Magnun man wasnt around until approx 35000 years ago. So, either the devs got their dates well and truly out of whack, the scientists on the Citadel then moved on to mars and set up shop there, icing up the Charon relay and closing us off from the galaxy, or it was the Collectors who were probing us.
I'll just leave this little snippet of the Eletania orb info here, as it sounds familiar to something we have all had first hand experience with.

It is on one of these long hunts that the strange bird returns. You hear it before you see it, its call a deafening roar as it descends from above, swooping down on you. A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb. You try to run, but a finger of red light extends from the eye and engulfs you, and all goes black again.

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Only problem with the Eletania sphere, is the time frame. Protheans vanished 50000 years ago, yet Cro Magnun man wasnt around until approx 35000 years ago. So, either the devs got their dates well and truly out of whack, the scientists on the Citadel then moved on to mars and set up shop there, icing up the Charon relay and closing us off from the galaxy, or it was the Collectors who were probing us.
I'll just leave this little snippet of the Eletania orb info here, as it sounds familiar to something we have all had first hand experience with.

It is on one of these long hunts that the strange bird returns. You hear it before you see it, its call a deafening roar as it descends from above, swooping down on you. A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb. You try to run, but a finger of red light extends from the eye and engulfs you, and all goes black again.

Here is the most interesting tibit from the artifact:

"Leaning on your bone-tipped spear for support, you rise to your feet. A sound draws your attention upwards, where a strange creature hovers high above you. It is unlike the birds you hunt by the lake's edge – it has no head and no wings yet somehow it flies. It is a beast of shining silver; hanging motionless in the sky like a cloud. You sense it is watching you, studying you." 


The physiological characteristics of the Prothean described in the vision do not fit either the physical characteristics of the Illos statue Protheans or the Collector Protheans. 

If you ask me, the Prothean described in the vision would, hypothetically, would best fit an intermediate Prothean stage. What does this mean? Well, remember how EDI told us the Collectors showed signs of extensive genetic re-write by the Reapers? This means the creature in the vision might have been a genetic precursor to the ME2 collector. 

I don't see how it could be any other way, considering the fact that Cro-Magnons existed 10,000-45,000 years ago, as someone above stated (unless Bioware dun goofed up). 

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 04:30 .

[Bogsnot1]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Oculus you fight on your way to the Collector Base, rather than the Collectors themselves.

[MrFob]

I AM KROGAAANNN wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Only problem with the Eletania sphere, is the time frame. Protheans vanished 50000 years ago, yet Cro Magnun man wasnt around until approx 35000 years ago. So, either the devs got their dates well and truly out of whack, the scientists on the Citadel then moved on to mars and set up shop there, icing up the Charon relay and closing us off from the galaxy, or it was the Collectors who were probing us.
I'll just leave this little snippet of the Eletania orb info here, as it sounds familiar to something we have all had first hand experience with.

It is on one of these long hunts that the strange bird returns. You hear it before you see it, its call a deafening roar as it descends from above, swooping down on you. A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb. You try to run, but a finger of red light extends from the eye and engulfs you, and all goes black again.

Here is the most interesting tibit from the artifact:

"Leaning on your bone-tipped spear for support, you rise to your feet. A sound draws your attention upwards, where a strange creature hovers high above you. It is unlike the birds you hunt by the lake's edge – it has no head and no wings yet somehow it flies. It is a beast of shining silver; hanging motionless in the sky like a cloud. You sense it is watching you, studying you." 


The physiological characteristics of the Prothean described in the vision do not fit either the physical characteristics of the Illos statue Protheans or the Collector Protheans. 

If you ask me, the Protheans described in the vision would, hypothetically, would best fit an intermediate 

What do you mean by "physiological characteristics"? The guy is probably seeing a ship. As the ship is made of steal and not that organic stuff the collector ship is made of, I'd say that indicates that these were the protheans in their original form.

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

MrFob wrote...

I AM KROGAAANNN wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Only problem with the Eletania sphere, is the time frame. Protheans vanished 50000 years ago, yet Cro Magnun man wasnt around until approx 35000 years ago. So, either the devs got their dates well and truly out of whack, the scientists on the Citadel then moved on to mars and set up shop there, icing up the Charon relay and closing us off from the galaxy, or it was the Collectors who were probing us.
I'll just leave this little snippet of the Eletania orb info here, as it sounds familiar to something we have all had first hand experience with.

It is on one of these long hunts that the strange bird returns. You hear it before you see it, its call a deafening roar as it descends from above, swooping down on you. A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb. You try to run, but a finger of red light extends from the eye and engulfs you, and all goes black again.

Here is the most interesting tibit from the artifact:

"Leaning on your bone-tipped spear for support, you rise to your feet. A sound draws your attention upwards, where a strange creature hovers high above you. It is unlike the birds you hunt by the lake's edge – it has no head and no wings yet somehow it flies. It is a beast of shining silver; hanging motionless in the sky like a cloud. You sense it is watching you, studying you." 


The physiological characteristics of the Prothean described in the vision do not fit either the physical characteristics of the Illos statue Protheans or the Collector Protheans. 

If you ask me, the Protheans described in the vision would, hypothetically, would best fit an intermediate 

What do you mean by "physiological characteristics"? The guy is probably seeing a ship. As the ship is made of steal and not that organic stuff the collector ship is made of, I'd say that indicates that these were the protheans in their original form.

Sorry, I was in the process of editing my post. Please read my revised post to clear up all the misconceptions you may have about my hypothesis. 

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 04:29 .

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

Sorry, double post. 

EDIT: @Bogsnot, yes that fits perfectly. An Oculus. Why didn't I think of that lol? 

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

Browser is messing up, I apologize. 

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[MrFob]

Oh, I see.
Well, I personally think BW made a mistake with the time issues here and intended this to be the real protheans. The reason is that I don't see why the collectors would come to earth at that time.

As far as the beacon visions go, that actually makes perfect sense. When the scientists on Illos sent the signal, the reaper invasion was already well under way (I think it was actually already over). At that time, it is feasible to assume that the guys on Illos had some idea as to what happened to their species, however, probably just a very vague one (as you get in the visions.

I am however not really sure how much BW had already planned the whole collector storyline at the time they finished up the plot of ME1. My impression is, that they only came up with the idea rather late and first introduced it in the Ascension novel to give some foreshadowing for ME2. Thus any hints on the collectors in ME1 would be pure coincidence or due to the fact that the collector story itself was then designed in a way to fit in.
That is only my personal impression though.

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

MrFob wrote...

Oh, I see.
Well, I personally think BW made a mistake with the time issues here and intended this to be the real protheans. The reason is that I don't see why the collectors would come to earth at that time.

As far as the beacon visions go, that actually makes perfect sense. When the scientists on Illos sent the signal, the reaper invasion was already well under way (I think it was actually already over). At that time, it is feasible to assume that the guys on Illos had some idea as to what happened to their species, however, probably just a very vague one (as you get in the visions.

I am however not really sure how much BW had already planned the whole collector storyline at the time they finished up the plot of ME1. My impression is, that they only came up with the idea rather late and first introduced it in the Ascension novel to give some foreshadowing for ME2. Thus any hints on the collectors in ME1 would be pure coincidence or due to the fact that the collector story itself was then designed in a way to fit in.
That is only my personal impression though.

Actually, the physical characteristics of the creature in the Eletania vision perfectly fits that of an Oculus.

- Shiny beast
- Has no "wings"
- Single, huge red eye that opens and emit a red beam of light.

Here are the actual quotes:

"A single great eye opens on the underbelly, a glowing red orb."

"It has no head and no wings yet somehow it flies. It is a beast of shining silver; hanging motionless in the sky like a cloud."

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[MrFob]

Yeah, that is true. I just don't get what they would want there.

It would make for some really cool plot twists though.

EDIT: At least I could think of a couple of REALLY crazy theories off hte top of my head.

Modifié par MrFob, 24 juin 2011 - 04:48 .

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

MrFob wrote...

Yeah, that is true. I just don't get what they would want there.

It would make for some really cool plot twists though.

I have a theory, but it requires me to make the underlying assumption that the Oculus is a Collector/Reaper weapon/invention OR **passed down Prothean technology** (see below). 

If the former assumption is true, then that means that the Prothean ruins are actually Collector base ruins. This is in perfect harmony with the time range given for the ascendancy of the ****** sapiens sapiens (Cro Magnons), which is well after the Prothean's extinction/enslavement. 

This can only mean that the Reapers, through the Collectors, were studying the viability of using various species throughout the galaxy for suitable organic material needed to ensure their livelihood/reproduction(?), as EDI surmises during your encounter with the Human Reaper on the Collector base, VERY early on.

In fact, it is not entirely impossible that the Collectors, and through them the Reapers, were modifying the human evolutionary process and that humans are nothing more than the product of Reaper/Collector test-tube experiments.

**Although the same things can be deduced if this was the case, there are a lot more loose ends in this scenario ( Bioware simply could have made a mistake and the thing was meant to be Prothean in nature, for example). 

EDIT: The Oculi may serve purposes that transcend mundane military operations...

EDIT 2: I just realized something!!!! If the first assumption is true, the Collectors/Reapers might have intentionally built the base to simultaneously monitor the humans and to ensure that they get the technology in the base to advance themselves at just the right time before the extinction cycle!!!!

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 05:31 .

[MrFob]

Plenty of possibilities:
The collectors might not have been under harbingers direct control (yes I used it without the capslock) the entire time. They might not have been as tightly controlled and, retaining some identity), some of them might have secretly worked against the reapers while they had the time.

Or, the scientists that went to the citadel through the conduit might not have perished as Vigil assumed or there might be surviving protheans no one knew about (the oculus thereby being originally prothean technology).

In any of these scenarios they would have visited earth to observe and influence the human development in order to make our species a weapon against the reapers. This influence could - in secret - even go on until the ME present.
I mean, it is quite the coincidence that humans just showed up 30 years before the deciding events in a 50.000 (!) year long cycle, that they rise to a considerable power within these 30 years where it tool other species centuries or even millennia AND that they ultimately hold the key to the reapers defeat.
Add to that Mordins comments about the unusual diversity and other anomalies within the human gene pool and Sheps miraculous resilience to indoctrination and you got a plot twist on the way.
Too wild? Maybe but still fun..

Modifié par MrFob, 24 juin 2011 - 05:11 .

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

MrFob wrote...

Plenty of possibilities:
The collectors might not have been under harbingers direct control (yes I used it without the capslock) the entire time. They might not have been as tightly controlled and, retaining some identity), some of them might have secretly worked against the reapers while they had the time.

Or, the scientists that went to the citadel through the conduit might not have perished as Vigil assumed or there might be surviving protheans no one knew about (the oculus thereby being originally prothean technology).

In any of these scenarios they would have visited earth to observe and influence the human development in order to make our species a weapon against the reapers. This influence could - in secret - even go on until the ME present.
I mean, it is quite the coincidence that humans just showed up 30 years before the deciding events in a 50.000 (!) year long cycle, that they rise to a considerable power within these 30 years where it tool other species centuries or even millennia AND that they ultimately hold the key to the reapers defeat.
Add to that Mordins comments about the unusual diversity and other anomalies within the human gene pool and Sheps miraculous resilience to indoctrination and you got a plot twist on the way.
Too wild? Maybe but still fun..

I don't think the D.C thing is correct. The Collectors have little autonomy or free will with or without Direct Control, considering the fact that Reapers tinkered with their genetics to a ridiculous extent (as heavily hinted in Mass Effect 2) to turn them into mindless slaves. Direct Control is merely something used to communicate Harbinger's will directly to others or to direct events as Harbinger/a Reaper pleases (such as in a fight).

For example, Harbinger D.C's the Collector General and relays orders to the rest of the Collectors. Harbinger releases control and his thralls carry out his bidding. 

It cannot be possible for the remaining Protheans to have found a way off the Citadel as any such means of transportation would most likely have been destroyed during the Reaper invasion. Besides, the Reapers would not be so stupid as to install hidden transportation systems in the Citadel. The Citadel isn't the Star Forge you know (it would be cool if it was ). 

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[MrFob]

Haha, you are making almost as may assumptions there as I made to come up with these theories.

Anyway, just fooling around here. They did say, there is gonna be a huge twist in ME3 and I could imagine it has something to do with the human genome thing.

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

From all this, it follows that the orbs themselves must be Collector in nature and not Prothean. Why else did the Collectors show much interest in such an orb on that one N7 mission in ME2 (a datapad saying that the scientist made a deal with the Collectors to trade them the orb for the survival of a human system)?

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 05:40 .

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

MrFob wrote...

Haha, you are making almost as may assumptions there as I made to come up with these theories.

Anyway, just fooling around here. They did say, there is gonna be a huge twist in ME3 and I could imagine it has something to do with the human genome thing.

Well, it was just one HUGE assumption, I admit. But it makes perfect logical and intuitive sense, at least to me.

I'll summarize my "findings" on a separate thread tomorrow. 

I dunno. The plot twist may be that, but it doesn't seem profound enough to be plot-twist worthy material if you know what I mean. That humans were merely the product of a laboratory experiment can somewhat be deduced (through leaps of logic) from Soverign's statement in ME1, "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident" and EDI's assertions that the Reapers must be harvesting organic life for their survival (which implies some level of imposed genetic control/organic life creation).  

We'll just have to wait and see. 

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 24 juin 2011 - 05:46 .

[Pride Demon]

I AM KROGAAANNN wrote...

I have a theory, but it requires me to make the underlying assumption that the Oculus is a Collector/Reaper weapon/invention OR **passed down Prothean technology** (see below). 

If the former assumption is true, then that means that the Prothean ruins are actually Collector base ruins. This is in perfect harmony with the time range given for the ascendancy of the ****** sapiens sapiens (Cro Magnons), which is well after the Prothean's extinction/enslavement. 

This can only mean that the Reapers, through the Collectors, were studying the viability of using various species throughout the galaxy for suitable organic material needed to ensure their livelihood/reproduction(?), as EDI surmises during your encounter with the Human Reaper on the Collector base, VERY early on.

EDIT 2: I just realized something!!!! If the first assumption is true, the Collectors/Reapers might have intentionally built the base to simultaneously monitor the humans and to ensure that they get the technology in the base to advance themselves at just the right time before the extinction cycle!!!!

Indeed! The Oculi are Reaper tech, they are mentioned as being present in ME3, they are probably the Reaper equivalent of multi-purpose drones...

Also I made a thread regarding this topic sometime ago and reached similar conclusions to yours...

Consider: Reapers are mentioned sometimes harvesting tech from the planets they destroy, considering they are already the most advanced beings in existence what do you think they'll need that harvested tech for? Planting it somewhere else to ensure other species evolve "along the paths [they] desire" but no one can track the evolution to them, instead pinning it to some extremely advanced precursor (for us, the Protheans)...

As for the Eletania thing, no one says the recording was from Prothean studying humans, that's just Shepard theory, since he/she didn't know about the Reaper-Collector-Prothean link yet...

[Smeelia]

I don't think we know how long the Reaper "clean-up" operation takes.  I suppose it's possible that a group of Protheans were stranded in the Sol system and perhaps headed to Earth in the hopes of surviving there (possibly abandoning their base on Mars, which the Reapers didn't find or didn't care about).

Perhaps the surviving Protheans implanted monitoring devices in some of the developing species and continued studying them even when they were on their own.  This could be where the "vision" comes from (it could be a recording), although how and why they transmitted the data off-world I'm not sure.  If the "bird" is an Oculus then it could be hunting for surviving Protheans, the reason for attacking the human (the description sounds like it could be a laser blast) would be to destroy any Prothean technology on Earth (so that humans don't get any too early).

[Raven4030]

You know, not everything has to be a Reaper plot. I doubt the writers considered this more than an interesting aside that is irrelevant to the storyline, and the Cro-Magnon reference a writing error. If the writers are like me, they likely assumed 'Cro-Magnon' simply referred to 'primitive man' and didn't think it was important enough to wikipedia. Honestly, if the Mars outpost were a Collector outpost it would utterly destroy continuity anyway, not to mention suspension of disbelief.