The Reapers' goal?
What are he Reapers' ultimate motivaton?
Débuté par
George-Kinsill
, juin 24 2011 12:16
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#102
Posté 19 juillet 2011 - 07:12
Piotrburz
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I think that reapers are the first civilization which achieved very high technology. Being powerful doesn't mean they don't need to control galaxy. They need carefully observe galaxy and if some civilization is evolving/improving very fast, it can be a threat to reapers after some time. So they decided that every 50k years, they have to clean the galaxy from developed species.
#103
Posté 19 juillet 2011 - 07:20
Mr.Pink
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George-Kinsill wrote...
Whie all the questions about the Reapers will ost likely be answered in ME3, the ultimate motivation of the Reapers' cylical genocide is one of the biggest questions about the Reapers and ME universe. While reprduction may be a motive for te Reapers, it hardly lies up to the hype set by Soveriegn in ME1 saying that their motives were "beyond organics' comprehension." So I'd like people to post their theories about the Reaper motives, and for the sake of the post, I'll start with mine:
In ME2, there are a number of stars dying faster the they should, going Red Giant sooner tha logicall possible, as seen on Tali's mission on Haestrom, and the star Solveig in the Caleston Rift. This is supposedly due to irregularities of dark energy/matter according to Quarian scientists.
There is a actual theory also about the ed of the universe in real life alled "The Big Rip." This is essentially the opposite of the Big Bag, where overexpasion of the universe (it's invisible dark matter) causes the very fabric of the universe to tear apart, resulting in the entire universe's destruction (unprecedeted destruction of stars, even black holes getting destroyed).
Based off this connection, I believe that the Reapers ultimately serve as protectors/conservationists of the galaxy/universe by preventig organics from abusing dark energy, which could lead to the ed of al things. Essentially, they let organics have their fun for 50,000 years, wipe them out to consere the galaxy, and then let organic civilization rise again, and the interim period between genocides allows the fabric of the universe to heal again.
The reason they give us the technology of the mass relays could be for 2 reasons besides the obvious 1) to be able to better control the variables that use dark energy, and 2) to make sure that when dark ery is used, its used to its maximum efficiecy with no horrible mistakes speeding up the Big Rip.
While this theory is a stretch, it would also explai why stars are just now starting to die prematurely, in that it takes 50,000 years for dark energy abuse to start affceting stars. It wouldn't make sense if ths were a regular occurance (even a rare one) as then o one would be surprised when it happens. So it seems to me that the stars dying early is a very new problem.
Lastly, it would explain why the Reapers seem so rushed. A number of posts have commented that if the Reapers really didn't let time oncern them (as they are immortal) they would just wait 150+ years fr Shepard to die, and te relative calm would also allow the Reaper theory and its biggest advoate to die, making their job much easier. Also, Saren and Soveriegn in ME1 knew that humanity just entered the galactic stage, and that to create a ew reaper, they may want to have the collectors test tis ew secies for Reaper potential. Instead, they accidentally discover humanity's potential with Shepard, far from their usual carefulness and diligence. All of this points to the Reapers having some variable out of their control, in which there is a time factor involved, and hence the need to get to the Milky Way ASAP and with the afformentioned dying stars and its connection to the Big Rip, it could easily be this.
So this is my personal theory (as long winded as it is) and please everyone feel free to post yours, find the many flaws in mine, or improve upon it. Thanks!
The only thing I don't like about this is it makes the Reapers the good guys in a way, since they are stopping the galaxy and universe from blowing up.
#104
Posté 19 juillet 2011 - 07:36
George-Kinsill
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Mr.Pink wrote...
The only thing I don't like about this is it makes the Reapers the good guys in a way, since they are stopping the galaxy and universe from blowing up.
That's what I hope this theory does, because think about the very end of the game, where the final battle is taking place, and you are told all of this by the Reapers. This gives you the choice to;
1)Kill all the Reapers anyway, preserving immediate life, but causing in like 1000 years the end of the galaxy,
2) Side with the Reapers, killing all current life, but allowing life to continue to exist, no matter how simple, over the next billions or trillions of years, or
3) Kill the Reapers, but tell the galactic governments of this new threat, and convince them to take immediate and strong action to avert the dark energy crisis, getting the best of both worlds. If you don't persuade them though (either through paragon/renegade points, or persuade check) the scenario from #1 occurs.
If this were to happen, this would be the most significant choice in the ME series, and the most morally gray, which I think would please renegades and paragons alike. I fail to think the Reapers are your sterotypical villains, and this theory would allow them to differ from your average JRPG villains that for some silly reason want to kill all life. The Reapers allow life to exist in the first place, so they can't be all that bad in the first place.
#105
Posté 19 juillet 2011 - 08:19
Yemmahogany
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Reapers are there to contain the Life Forms (the REAL bad guys) that have not been introduced yet. The Reapers do this by destroying all the resources (organic life) that the life forms would normally use to expand, thus keeping the unseen threat dormant.
The Protheans were able to stop the Reapers during the last cycle, so the unseen threat has had 55,000 to grow.
At the end of ME3, after you destroy the Reapers, the REAL threat will reveal itself.
The Protheans were able to stop the Reapers during the last cycle, so the unseen threat has had 55,000 to grow.
At the end of ME3, after you destroy the Reapers, the REAL threat will reveal itself.
#106
Posté 19 juillet 2011 - 09:15
superfastguy
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this'll sound dum, but what if the reapers are f---ed up versions of angels? they all were created to carry out infinite days of judgement in a nasty way. God knows all things in time, so the reapers are his indirect method of creating the apocalypse.
im just saying this because Ashley mentioned her faith in god, so its not like bioware erased his influence completely from the series.
btw im not a religious nutcase
im just saying this because Ashley mentioned her faith in god, so its not like bioware erased his influence completely from the series.
btw im not a religious nutcase
#107
Posté 19 juillet 2011 - 09:21
superfastguy
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[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Again, look at what they do:
1) They give organic life technology to advance along lines that they desire
2) They harvest the technology of that organic life
3) They constantly test and evaulate organic life
4) They sometimes harvest the biological life itself to create new Reapers
5) They are clearly fascinated by Shepard and want him for some purpose
6) At the end of every cycle, they scrub the galaxy clean of every species that knows about them and then hides for 50k years to wait for the next batch to mature
So we have some easy to make conclusions:
a) Permenantly killing off organic life is clearly not their goal.
They reproduce but since Reapers are immortal, reproduction is clearly not required to sustain numbers.
c) They allow life to evolve naturally but then when they reach a certain technological state, they guide that species to a certain technological state
d) They are very fussy about which species they use to reproduce: they must meet specific biological and technological criteria.
Personally, I think this is the Reaper's way to grow and evolve. It likely has to do with their origins, which will explain their internal motivations.
[/quote]This, pretty much. The killing of organics and production of new Reapers is not the goal in and of themselves. If the Reapers wanted to prevent life from growing in the galaxy, they could patrol it and bombard everything that grows. If the Reapers wanted to make as many Reapers in possible, they could both lower their standards and focus on indefinite harvesting of a suitable species.
Most likely, I'd see the Reapers intent as they have said: salvation and ascension of 'worthy' species. The destruction is likely a necessity to avoid some greater threat: I'm a proponent of over-use of Mass Effect/dark energy myself. (As in, if too much is used in a time span, the galaxy dies and no life will be born.)
I'll give my speculation on some of Whatever's questions.
[quote]
But also some questions:
Why is it important for organic life to evolve along the Reaper's technologically approved path?
[/quote]It's important that there is no single approved tech path. There is not a rail of Reaper-allowed technology: rather, there is a spectrum of technologies that species develop with their own twists. The Leviathan of Dis's creators made an organic space ship: the Protheans made psychic beacons. The Salarians made a genophage, the Council made the galactic standard, and Humans have made fighter carriers and stealth ships.
It's mistaken to think that there are paths we are not allowed to take: the Reapers allow much greater variation than any restrictions we have either seen. Their only impetus is the concept of the Mass Effect itself... which itself is a dominant technology no matter the way it is applied.
The Reaper's strategy doesn't depend on the exact technologies a species uses. Rather, it relies on the Citadel trap itself, independent of the adoption of any 'approved' path. Sovereign's metaphors, we have since learned, were surprisingly literal on a number of levels.
[quote]
Why do they bother to reproduce?[/quote]Likely for what they claim: to save 'worthy' species. Being a Reaper isn't an identity, it's a category for the saved. The Reapers aren't 'reproducing', in the sense they are making another one like themselves. The Reapers are already unique.
[quote]
Why do they allow organic life to evolve naturally - they could simply farm us like a crop?[/quote]Because while they value life (in their own way), they prioritize diversity over duplication. Duplication is already covered by the nature of the Reapers themselves: with each Reaper being a gestalt-AI of the species it is created from, there is no impetus or distinct value from two Reapers of the same species. The Reapers (by and large) already have the numbers they need from the normal progress of the cycle.
i want to point out that the baby reaper in ME2 seems pretty small compared to the potential size of other reapers.
maybe it was a skeleton for the rest of the reaper shape to mold around.
[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Again, look at what they do:
1) They give organic life technology to advance along lines that they desire
2) They harvest the technology of that organic life
3) They constantly test and evaulate organic life
4) They sometimes harvest the biological life itself to create new Reapers
5) They are clearly fascinated by Shepard and want him for some purpose
6) At the end of every cycle, they scrub the galaxy clean of every species that knows about them and then hides for 50k years to wait for the next batch to mature
So we have some easy to make conclusions:
a) Permenantly killing off organic life is clearly not their goal.
They reproduce but since Reapers are immortal, reproduction is clearly not required to sustain numbers.c) They allow life to evolve naturally but then when they reach a certain technological state, they guide that species to a certain technological state
d) They are very fussy about which species they use to reproduce: they must meet specific biological and technological criteria.
Personally, I think this is the Reaper's way to grow and evolve. It likely has to do with their origins, which will explain their internal motivations.
[/quote]This, pretty much. The killing of organics and production of new Reapers is not the goal in and of themselves. If the Reapers wanted to prevent life from growing in the galaxy, they could patrol it and bombard everything that grows. If the Reapers wanted to make as many Reapers in possible, they could both lower their standards and focus on indefinite harvesting of a suitable species.
Most likely, I'd see the Reapers intent as they have said: salvation and ascension of 'worthy' species. The destruction is likely a necessity to avoid some greater threat: I'm a proponent of over-use of Mass Effect/dark energy myself. (As in, if too much is used in a time span, the galaxy dies and no life will be born.)
I'll give my speculation on some of Whatever's questions.
[quote]
But also some questions:
Why is it important for organic life to evolve along the Reaper's technologically approved path?
[/quote]It's important that there is no single approved tech path. There is not a rail of Reaper-allowed technology: rather, there is a spectrum of technologies that species develop with their own twists. The Leviathan of Dis's creators made an organic space ship: the Protheans made psychic beacons. The Salarians made a genophage, the Council made the galactic standard, and Humans have made fighter carriers and stealth ships.
It's mistaken to think that there are paths we are not allowed to take: the Reapers allow much greater variation than any restrictions we have either seen. Their only impetus is the concept of the Mass Effect itself... which itself is a dominant technology no matter the way it is applied.
The Reaper's strategy doesn't depend on the exact technologies a species uses. Rather, it relies on the Citadel trap itself, independent of the adoption of any 'approved' path. Sovereign's metaphors, we have since learned, were surprisingly literal on a number of levels.
[quote]
Why do they bother to reproduce?[/quote]Likely for what they claim: to save 'worthy' species. Being a Reaper isn't an identity, it's a category for the saved. The Reapers aren't 'reproducing', in the sense they are making another one like themselves. The Reapers are already unique.
[quote]
Why do they allow organic life to evolve naturally - they could simply farm us like a crop?[/quote]Because while they value life (in their own way), they prioritize diversity over duplication. Duplication is already covered by the nature of the Reapers themselves: with each Reaper being a gestalt-AI of the species it is created from, there is no impetus or distinct value from two Reapers of the same species. The Reapers (by and large) already have the numbers they need from the normal progress of the cycle.
i want to point out that the baby reaper in ME2 seems pretty small compared to the potential size of other reapers.
maybe it was a skeleton for the rest of the reaper shape to mold around.
#108
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 12:37
Jamin101
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So I had a theory a few months ago and then reading this thread will edit it a bit.
So the reapers develop huge technology, not the whole relay network but their technology is mass effect driven, because they are super powerful their species survives for 50,000 years. Like the quarians in ME2 they start noticing stars are aging and overall the galaxy is trippin. They determine dark energy, mass, eezo, something else entirely is causing this.
Here you can have a few ideas. As a society they determine their lives are not worth the destruction of a galaxy and create the first reaper. Or this is done against their will. Either way they became reapers and built the mass effect relays galaxy wide to control evolution. Since they know how long it takes for permanent damage to occur they genocide all life before this can happen. its also why they let life continue because they are not evil but just protectors. Maybe it defies the laws of physics or you need synthetics and thats why the Reapers say organics cant comprehend.
Since Shepard stopped the citadel the space fairing races continue altering the galaxies mass/dark energy/whatever and thats why stars are now going haywire
So the reapers develop huge technology, not the whole relay network but their technology is mass effect driven, because they are super powerful their species survives for 50,000 years. Like the quarians in ME2 they start noticing stars are aging and overall the galaxy is trippin. They determine dark energy, mass, eezo, something else entirely is causing this.
Here you can have a few ideas. As a society they determine their lives are not worth the destruction of a galaxy and create the first reaper. Or this is done against their will. Either way they became reapers and built the mass effect relays galaxy wide to control evolution. Since they know how long it takes for permanent damage to occur they genocide all life before this can happen. its also why they let life continue because they are not evil but just protectors. Maybe it defies the laws of physics or you need synthetics and thats why the Reapers say organics cant comprehend.
Since Shepard stopped the citadel the space fairing races continue altering the galaxies mass/dark energy/whatever and thats why stars are now going haywire
#109
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 12:41
Jamin101
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Also another thought. In Halo the Flood came from outside the milky way. The ME universe is so huge, dozens of systems and hundreds of colonized planets and yet only 1% is explored. Literally thousands of stars. And this is just one galaxy and there are alot of galaxies.
Maybe its something or someone from another galaxy or space and time itself and they created the Reapers/ Reapers are from outside the galaxy. Organic life cant comprehend it because the universe is simply just too much or physics is different in different galaxies, for example where reapers are from e = mc cubed instead of squared so Organics would never be able to understand it because our feeble bodies cannot experience it
Maybe its something or someone from another galaxy or space and time itself and they created the Reapers/ Reapers are from outside the galaxy. Organic life cant comprehend it because the universe is simply just too much or physics is different in different galaxies, for example where reapers are from e = mc cubed instead of squared so Organics would never be able to understand it because our feeble bodies cannot experience it
#110
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 01:16
SetsunaF
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I happened to glimpse a scene from Titan AE and then it occurred to me, could the Reapers have originally been built as genetic Arks? A hybrid life form that would carry the genetic memories of its creator species away from self imposed or other disaster to rebuild a civilization or assist any encountered species along a path that will avoid their mistake. Could this original imperative have undergone some 'corruption' after observing the self destructive nature of organic civilizations and decided that this ascended form was the only way to preserve organics from themselves? Something of this sort may fit in with many of the theories posted here before.
#111
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 02:39
WEIRDLITTLEBRO
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Unless the reapers do the same cycle with every galaxy in the universe, then I doubt it's the big rip theory. My guess is that the reapers want to preserve their existence for as long as possible so they periodically put-down galactic civilization before it can grow powerful enough to compete with them. They say that their motives are "beyond our comprehension" but they could just be racist. 'Humph! You can't possibly understand the fine art of genocide -- it is far too sophisticated for your pitiful human brains to grasp.'
Harbinger also once said, "Those you know as Reapers are your salvation, not destruction." And when he took Freedoms Progress he ordered his Collectors to "Prepare these humans for ascension."
Perhaps the Reapers believe that they are immortalizing people by making them into Reapers. "We are each a nation." -Sovereign. Legion also said that, like the Geth, Naraza contained many "programs" inside the physical hardware. If this is true, the Repears might see it as some sort of mission -- to preserve life, in a sense, by immortalizing species in Reaper form. The first great galactic civilization may have created the Reapers out of themselves in an attempt to achieve a form of immortality.
Harbinger also once said, "Those you know as Reapers are your salvation, not destruction." And when he took Freedoms Progress he ordered his Collectors to "Prepare these humans for ascension."
Perhaps the Reapers believe that they are immortalizing people by making them into Reapers. "We are each a nation." -Sovereign. Legion also said that, like the Geth, Naraza contained many "programs" inside the physical hardware. If this is true, the Repears might see it as some sort of mission -- to preserve life, in a sense, by immortalizing species in Reaper form. The first great galactic civilization may have created the Reapers out of themselves in an attempt to achieve a form of immortality.
#112
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 02:41
The Spamming Troll
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SetsunaF wrote...
I happened to glimpse a scene from Titan AE and then it occurred to me, could the Reapers have originally been built as genetic Arks? A hybrid life form that would carry the genetic memories of its creator species away from self imposed or other disaster to rebuild a civilization or assist any encountered species along a path that will avoid their mistake. Could this original imperative have undergone some 'corruption' after observing the self destructive nature of organic civilizations and decided that this ascended form was the only way to preserve organics from themselves? Something of this sort may fit in with many of the theories posted here before.
why is ooze better then two legs, two arms, a torso and a head?
your not a human being, nless your a human being. unless i missed that one sci fi movie that already used the idea of ooze being turned back into the exact person that was oozified, i just dont like it.
ooze is not life. this, my friend, this is life.
#113
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 04:59
George-Kinsill
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superfastguy wrote...
this'll sound dum, but what if the reapers are f---ed up versions of angels? they all were created to carry out infinite days of judgement in a nasty way. God knows all things in time, so the reapers are his indirect method of creating the apocalypse.
im just saying this because Ashley mentioned her faith in god, so its not like bioware erased his influence completely from the series.
btw im not a religious nutcase
Tthat idea was already taken by Evangalion (anime), in a way, so its not a bad idea at all, (as Evangalion is my favorite anime series) but it would be more JRPG leaning than bioware has sone in the past.
Although I would like to see Ashley's face if this were true, with her finding out that her diety wants to make us all into a smoothie, and then for the option to kick her off the ship if she refuses to fight the Reapers.
#115
Guest_Ferris95_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:16
Guest_Ferris95_*
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XDMMX wrote...
Cake
The cake is a.....
No wait, I'm better than that.
#116
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:21
Nightdragon8
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George-Kinsill wrote...
superfastguy wrote...
this'll sound dum, but what if the reapers are f---ed up versions of angels? they all were created to carry out infinite days of judgement in a nasty way. God knows all things in time, so the reapers are his indirect method of creating the apocalypse.
im just saying this because Ashley mentioned her faith in god, so its not like bioware erased his influence completely from the series.
btw im not a religious nutcase
Tthat idea was already taken by Evangalion (anime), in a way, so its not a bad idea at all, (as Evangalion is my favorite anime series) but it would be more JRPG leaning than bioware has sone in the past.
Although I would like to see Ashley's face if this were true, with her finding out that her diety wants to make us all into a smoothie, and then for the option to kick her off the ship if she refuses to fight the Reapers.
that may not be the kind of god she believes in, so i don't think she wont not fight them. that would be a serious character flaw imo
#117
Guest_AwesomeName_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 10:59
Guest_AwesomeName_*
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I think it's just plain survival. I think they want to survive the entire lifetime of the universe because they realise everything is tending toward a state of chaos (I'm referring to the physics idea of entropy; the idea that everything starts off fairly ordered but tends, on average, towards a more chaotic state e.g. an egg falls and smashes, but a smashed egg doesn't fall back up and reform).
I suspect that their whole schpiel about having no beginning and no end, might have something to do with being able to exist in different states of the universe. E.g. once everything in the universe is eventually burnt out, and all matter (minus the Reapers) is just fully evaporated and spread out in the form of radiation, then time for pretty much everything in the universe ceases to tick* - perhaps the Reapers have the technology to somehow exist in this state? If they're able to do this and exist in a state where time has no meaning, then perhaps that's what they were talking about. Possibly the universe then re-crunches into a singularity and does a big-bang again, and then the Reapers switch out of that state and live on - although they'd have to explain how they'd survive that, if the writers decided that this was the kind of universe they wanted to go with.
*special relativity thing: when things, like light radiation, move at the speed of light through space, it has no speed through time; a given object has a total speed through spacetime, which is equal to the speed of light - for us, most of our speed is in our time component, since we're not moving anywhere close to the speed of light through space, hence we don't notice the effect of special relativity.
P.s. I'm no physics major, so apologies if I got any of that wrong!
I suspect that their whole schpiel about having no beginning and no end, might have something to do with being able to exist in different states of the universe. E.g. once everything in the universe is eventually burnt out, and all matter (minus the Reapers) is just fully evaporated and spread out in the form of radiation, then time for pretty much everything in the universe ceases to tick* - perhaps the Reapers have the technology to somehow exist in this state? If they're able to do this and exist in a state where time has no meaning, then perhaps that's what they were talking about. Possibly the universe then re-crunches into a singularity and does a big-bang again, and then the Reapers switch out of that state and live on - although they'd have to explain how they'd survive that, if the writers decided that this was the kind of universe they wanted to go with.
*special relativity thing: when things, like light radiation, move at the speed of light through space, it has no speed through time; a given object has a total speed through spacetime, which is equal to the speed of light - for us, most of our speed is in our time component, since we're not moving anywhere close to the speed of light through space, hence we don't notice the effect of special relativity.
P.s. I'm no physics major, so apologies if I got any of that wrong!
