49 réponses à ce sujet

[Kimberly Shaw]

One design decision I really think was idiotic on the part of the devs was to make the class of Hawke decide who is killed by the Ogre, rather than let Hawke decide.

I think it was a huge waste of an opportunity to bring impact into all those times Leandra blames you for the death, and make your relationship with the surviving sibling all that much more interesting, and just in general have added a really "innovative" twist to the game (sorry, couldn't be helped).

I don't really understand how it would be unbalanced to have another fighter or mage PC available, especially considering NEITHER sibling is available after act 1 except for the small part of act 3.  Therefore, not really needed for balance to have an all mage party or all fighter party if the PC decides. Besides, artificially enforcing limits on classes is cheap.

Thoughts?

[FJVP]

I would have really liked this, though I suspect that many people would always choose to have Bethany live instead of Carver, since Bethany is also more useful (Carver is just a weaker copy of Fenris). I know I would

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

As far as I'm concerned, the whole "one sibling MUST die at the beginning" bull should have been tossed out of the window.

Had both Carver and Bethany survived, the rest of the game, especially Act 3, could have been much more interesting.

[whykikyouwhy]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

One design decision I really think was idiotic on the part of the devs was to make the class of Hawke decide who is killed by the Ogre, rather than let Hawke decide.

I think it was a huge waste of an opportunity to bring impact into all those times Leandra blames you for the death, and make your relationship with the surviving sibling all that much more interesting, and just in general have added a really "innovative" twist to the game (sorry, couldn't be helped).

I don't really understand how it would be unbalanced to have another fighter or mage PC available, especially considering NEITHER sibling is available after act 1 except for the small part of act 3.  Therefore, not really needed for balance to have an all mage party or all fighter party if the PC decides. Besides, artificially enforcing limits on classes is cheap.

Thoughts?

How would Hawke have decided who would die in the Prologue versus decision by class selection? Would it have been by gender?

If so, I wouldn't have cared for that. It makes more sense to me to have the class selection decide. There was something rather sweet (for me) to have the Amell-Hawke sisters together in Act 1 and later in Act 3 when I was playing a warrior or rogue. There was a unique bond there. I don't know that I would have felt the same had my gender selection forced me to have a brother vs sister companion (F!Hawke forced to have a brother or M!Hawke forced to have a sister).

[Kimberly Shaw]

@whykikouwhy....are you seriously asking me that?

I mean the PC would have to make a decision when the Ogre attacks who to save of the two...like a decision tree and then he pushes Bethany aside and Carver gets the Ogre attack.

Honestly...I can't believe you took my post to mean that gender should decide. Really. I'm shocked someone could be that obtuse,I thought I was pretty clear.

Hawke (meaning, YOU..the PC) should decide, not the class or the gender or soem artificial construct.

@drunkdeadman - I agree with you that the sibling must die in the prologue thing didn't work for me either, I was just saying it could have had some interesting repurcussions if it wasn't set by class.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, the whole "one sibling MUST die at the beginning" bull should have been tossed out of the window.

Had both Carver and Bethany survived, the rest of the game, especially Act 3, could have been much more interesting.

If it was my game (and it ain't ) I would have had the option of Hawke choosing whether:

1. Having them both live in the beginning
2. Having them both die in the beginning
3. Having one or the other live/die in the beginning

All of those scenarios could have still worked given the storyline and the game mechanics.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 24 juin 2011 - 02:08 .

[FJVP]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, the whole "one sibling MUST die at the beginning" bull should have been tossed out of the window.

Had both Carver and Bethany survived, the rest of the game, especially Act 3, could have been much more interesting.

But, but ... this would have forced me to be stuck with Carver Though I suppose I could take him to the Deep Roads and have have him die there

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
If it was my game (and it ain't [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]) I would have had the option of Hawke choosing whether:

1. Having them both live in the beginning
2. Having them both die in the beginning
3. Having one or the other live/die in the beginning

All of those scenarios could have still worked given the storyline and the game mechanics.

Can #2 include Hawke and Leandra as well? And isn't #3 what just happens in the game, aside from not letting you choose who dies?

Modifié par FJVP, 24 juin 2011 - 02:13 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

@whykikouwhy....are you seriously asking me that?

I mean the PC would have to make a decision when the Ogre attacks who to save of the two...like a decision tree and then he pushes Bethany aside and Carver gets the Ogre attack.

Honestly...I can't believe you took my post to mean that gender should decide. Really. I'm shocked someone could be that obtuse,I thought I was pretty clear.

Hawke (meaning, YOU..the PC) should decide, not the class or the gender or soem artificial construct.

@drunkdeadman - I agree with you that the sibling must die in the prologue thing didn't work for me either, I was just saying it could have had some interesting repurcussions if it wasn't set by class.

I appreciate being called obtuse...thanks for that.  

I was asking for clarification to avoid confusion on my part, or on the part of anyone else reading your post after me. No offense was meant. I just wanted to be sure I understood you correctly. Which, apparently, I did not.

[mesmerizedish]

Two things:

a) The writers wanted to kill a sibling.

The narrative requires that there be a mage Hawke.

With those points in mind, the decision being made by class makes the most sense. I think the sibling's death was unnecessary, but, as per point A, the writers had something different in mind.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
If it was my game (and it ain't [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]) I would have had the option of Hawke choosing whether:

1. Having them both live in the beginning
2. Having them both die in the beginning
3. Having one or the other live/die in the beginning

All of those scenarios could have still worked given the storyline and the game mechanics.

Can #2 include Hawke and Leandra as well? And isn't #3 what just happens in the game, aside from not letting you choose who dies?

LOL, no it can't include Leandra, she has to die later...zombie style.

3 is what happens, but having the option to "choose" makes all the difference. I think that decision should also impact their attitudes later if you go rival or friend with them. It should also impact their attitude on going to the Deep Roads with you. There are so many interesting things they could have done with the decision tree there. Wasted opportunity IMHO.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Two things:

a) The writers wanted to kill a sibling.

The narrative requires that there be a mage Hawke.

With
those points in mind, the decision being made by class makes the most
sense. I think the sibling's death was unnecessary, but, as per point A,
the writers had something different in mind.

I can't speak to a) I'm not the writer and I don't know their mind. All I can say, is if I worked for Bioware I'd question the need to be so linear. Nuff Said.

As for the narrative does not require a mage Hawke to "live", which is already established. Hawke's father was a mage, Bethany is a mage. Bethany dying or living along with Carver is irrelevant, the narrative still works.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 24 juin 2011 - 02:23 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Two things:

a) The writers wanted to kill a sibling.

The narrative requires that there be a mage Hawke.

With those points in mind, the decision being made by class makes the most sense. I think the sibling's death was unnecessary, but, as per point A, the writers had something different in mind.

Why does the narrative require that there be a mage Hawke?  Bethany can die in the deep roads and the game still ends exactly the same.  There was a mage Hawke, it was your father.

As for point (a), yeah, they wanted to kill most of your family if not all.  I get that.  I just think they missed a real opportunity to make a player choice impact the game...which they continued to do the rest of the game.

I think it was some sort of balance reason they decided to make it class based rather than the narrative. Or maybe they thought they needed it for the narrative originally but as the game plays, not having a mage Hawke doesn't really change anything.

[Blansten]

Perhaps if the death occurred later in the game the choice would be more meaningful. I have no idea what would motivate me to choose one over the other 5 minutes in as I have no connection to them.

[FJVP]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
LOL, no it can't include Leandra, she has to die later...zombie style.

3 is what happens, but having the option to "choose" makes all the difference. I think that decision should also impact their attitudes later if you go rival or friend with them. It should also impact their attitude on going to the Deep Roads with you. There are so many  interesting things they could have done with the decision tree there.
Wasted opportunity IMHO.

Too bad, I could spare her a lot of suffering. And I agree, it was a wasted opportunity to help me connect with the Hawke family better. As it is now I find it hard to be attached to any of them, well except Beth, but that's probably because I also have a younger sister. 

[maxernst]

What I think is really weird is that they opted for to make the Grey Warden storyline that requires you to have one specific party configuration in the deeproads (sibling+Anders+Varric) out of (if I'm doing my math correctly) 15 different possible permutations of how you fill the two open slots with six possible companions. Other than the final side with mages or side with Templars decision, who you take with you into the Deep Roads is probably the most significant storyline decision you make in the entire game. I think that's a very odd game design decision.

[Chiramu]

I would like this as well . I would choose Carver all three times! I really would like to know how Carver speaks with rogue and warrior Hawke .

[TEWR]

I would have liked both to live and you head down to the Deep Roads with one, leave the other, and stuff happens. Let me explain a bit better:


1) Both siblings live
2) Take Carver into the Deep Roads, leave Bethany topside
3) Carver becomes a Grey Warden or dies depending on if you took Anders, Bethany is taken to the Circle


IMO that would feel really emotional because your family is torn away from you because of fate.

[mesmerizedish]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Why does the narrative require that there be a mage Hawke?  Bethany can die in the deep roads and the game still ends exactly the same.  There was a mage Hawke, it was your father.

There's no reason to go to the Deep Roads unless you have a mage you need to protect. The game makes very clear that that's why you're trying to get aboard the expedition.

[EDIT] Did it have to be this way? No. Just like they didn't have to kill a sibling. But that's the way the writers wanted it.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 24 juin 2011 - 04:28 .

[ipgd]

The siblings are a plot device designed to function as a foil to the player's character. Bethany gives a non-mage Hawke reason to empathize with mages, and Carver presents an opposite argument to a mage Hawke. With both alive, this intended purpose is imbalanced.

Carver's character in particular is very contingent on being the sole non-mage child in his family. The way he is written, he would likely have been an entirely different person were he to live on a non-mage playthrough.

[TEWR]

Carver hardly makes me empathize with the Templars. He just comes across as a child who can't take anything for what it is. He has to find a problem with everything. Even when he becomes a Templar, it's out of spite towards Hawke and magic, because he wasn't born a mage. It doesn't make me like or agree with the Templars at all.

I'm choosing to stand for what's right when **** hits the fan in Act 3. He's choosing to annul a Circle that wasn't beyond saving, especially when Orsino made a last ditch effort to convince Meredith to rescind her Annulment. Orsino said he would gladly assist in her search through the tower if she wouldn't kill them for an act they had nothing to do with.

He's choosing to agree with a lunatic. His duty as a Templar is to protect the populus from mages and to protect mages from the populus. But he chose to fight the mages and his brother/sister because of the reason that is "the people will demand blood". The people aren't bloodthirsty savages. They will see justice done yes, but they will see it done to the one who did the act, especially if the power in Kirkwall (Meredith) said he was the one who did it.

Having him and Bethany both live wouldn't upset anything. He could be the same way he is currently to Bethany and even worse to both Bethany and a Mage Hawke.


EDIT: This isn't to say that I despise Carver. I like him actually. He's a cool cat.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 juin 2011 - 05:09 .

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Why does the narrative require that there be a mage Hawke?  Bethany can die in the deep roads and the game still ends exactly the same.  There was a mage Hawke, it was your father.

There's no reason to go to the Deep Roads unless you have a mage you need to protect. The game makes very clear that that's why you're trying to get aboard the expedition.

[EDIT] Did it have to be this way? No. Just like they didn't have to kill a sibling. But that's the way the writers wanted it.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Going to the Deep Roads because you want to protect your mage sibling (or yourself) from overzealous templars is only part of the reason why you're going, not the whole reason. The other part of the reason you're going is the most basic, you need the money. Also, on some level, Hawke wants to restore his/her family name. You're trying to "get rich" to help not only Bethany/Carver and yourself but also Leandra.

I agree that it did not need to be that way. A very minor story point to change in the whole scheme of things.

[rwscissors702]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Why does the narrative require that there be a mage Hawke?  Bethany can die in the deep roads and the game still ends exactly the same.  There was a mage Hawke, it was your father.

There's no reason to go to the Deep Roads unless you have a mage you need to protect. The game makes very clear that that's why you're trying to get aboard the expedition.

[EDIT] Did it have to be this way? No. Just like they didn't have to kill a sibling. But that's the way the writers wanted it.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Going to the Deep Roads because you want to protect your mage sibling (or yourself) from overzealous templars is only part of the reason why you're going, not the whole reason. The other part of the reason you're going is the most basic, you need the money. Also, on some level, Hawke wants to restore his/her family name. You're trying to "get rich" to help not only Bethany/Carver and yourself but also Leandra.

I agree that it did not need to be that way. A very minor story point to change in the whole scheme of things.

I agree. Hawke is a mover, he/she wasn't going to sit in Lowtown with his/her uncle. That's what Varric saw in hawke and why he wanted him/her on the expidition. If it wasn't Varric, it would have been someone else and their scheme.

[Realmzmaster]

The basic reason for going to the Deep Roads is to gain wealth quickly to obtain status. That status would be used to shield the mages in the family. That same status would protect a mage Hawke. Consider that if there was no mage left in the family, Hawke could slowly build wealth. No mage in the family means that Hawke could continue to work as a smuggler or mercenary. If Bethany is alive that route is not viable. Bethany and a mage Hawke would have a greater chance of being discovered over a longer period of time.

Now you can argue that Hawke would still pick the Deep Roads expedition because it is the quickest way to get his/her mother out of his uncle's hovel and garner great wealth. But she/he would have an option whether to do that or not with no mages left in the family.

I would not have leave the decision to Hawke about who or who does not die. I would rather leave that to the siblings and have the computer (DM) roll to decide who lives or who dies. I would add another option that both could die or live

[TobiTobsen]

Being a mage and saving Bethany would make the "Bethany is dragged to the circle scene" even more absurd.

"What are you doing here?!"
"We take her to the circle! She is a mage!"
"But I'm a..."
"LALALALALALA CANT HEAR YOU! OUT OF OUR WAY HAWKE!"
"C'mon Cullen... do you really want to ignore the fact that I'm a mage all the game"
"No... only till act three."

[devilsgrin]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Carver hardly makes me empathize with the Templars. He just comes across as a child who can't take anything for what it is. He has to find a problem with everything. Even when he becomes a Templar, it's out of spite towards Hawke and magic, because he wasn't born a mage. It doesn't make me like or agree with the Templars at all.

I'm choosing to stand for what's right when **** hits the fan in Act 3. He's choosing to annul a Circle that wasn't beyond saving, especially when Orsino made a last ditch effort to convince Meredith to rescind her Annulment. Orsino said he would gladly assist in her search through the tower if she wouldn't kill them for an act they had nothing to do with.

He's choosing to agree with a lunatic. His duty as a Templar is to protect the populus from mages and to protect mages from the populus. But he chose to fight the mages and his brother/sister because of the reason that is "the people will demand blood". The people aren't bloodthirsty savages. They will see justice done yes, but they will see it done to the one who did the act, especially if the power in Kirkwall (Meredith) said he was the one who did it.

Having him and Bethany both live wouldn't upset anything. He could be the same way he is currently to Bethany and even worse to both Bethany and a Mage Hawke.


EDIT: This isn't to say that I despise Carver. I like him actually. He's a cool cat.

Given the option, i would ALWAYS choose to save Carver. Bethany is infuriatingly insipid (unless she gets Grey Wardened, then shes a bitter ****).
He doesn't make me empathise with the Templars one bit. Nothing does. Oppression for any reason is repellent to me.
Its clear to me that Carver is the "proper" companion. Since Mage-Hawke also seems to be the canon hawke. His character is significantly better developed. More aspects of his personality emerge through conversation than Bethany's. Funnily enough, i TRY to max out rival with him... its more fun to argue with your brother. 
I also, simply cannot let him become a Templar. He's always a Grey Warden in my playthrough. Which he loves, and finally gets a chance to prove himself as a warrior/hero away from hawke's "big fat shadow." By the time we see him again in Act 3, he's a real character, infinitely deeper than Bethany. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

There really was no good reason to kill either of them off at the beginning of the game; there is literally zero time to get to know the character being killed, thus you never feel as emotionally connected as you should when your sibling would be killed.

Allowing both to live, perhaps at the cost of the mother character, would've been a much better decision on part of the dev team. Have one sibling join the Templars, while the other is forced into the Circle, and BAM... emotional entanglement.