49 réponses à ce sujet

[Raygereio]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Allowing both to live, perhaps at the cost of the mother character, would've been a much better decision on part of the dev team.

Or have no Ogre-smash happen by having the sibling who dies simply not be there. He or she simply never exists. This will have the benefit of the player not immediatly going "Wuh? Why did he/she just stand there like and idiot instead of moving out fo the way? Am I supposed to care about what happens here?".

[ipgd]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Carver hardly makes me empathize with the Templars.

I didn't say his purpose was to make you empathize with the templars.

What he does is primarily serve as an example of how magic and life harboring apostates has negatively impacted Hawke's family.

Having him and Bethany both live wouldn't upset anything. He could be the same way he is currently to Bethany and even worse to both Bethany and a Mage Hawke.

Having him be that much of an ass to Bethany wouldn't have the same effect. For one, it's Bethany, and he would just come off as pettily cruel considering how demure and reserved she is -- she purposefully doesn't call attention to herself and doesn't cast much of a shadow for Carver to mope in.

The sibling rivalry between Hawke and Carver could easily be preserved, sure, but the resentment of Hawke specifically because Hawke and Bethany were both mages and he is not would have to go and that is the buoy of his plot relevance. Without magic and his self-realized alienation as the central conflict of his and Hawke's relationship, he does not serve the purpose he is intended to serve.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 02:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

I'm amused by these threads because if the option was available than Leandra blaming Hawke for their sibling's death would change from "hysterical ranting" to "legitimate criticism."

[TEWR]

ipgd wrote...

I didn't say his purpose was to make you empathize with the templars.

What he does is primarily serve as an example of how magic and life harboring apostates has negatively impacted Hawke's family.

Hmmm.... alright I guess. That wouldn't be an issue if the Chantry wasn't full of a bunch of pricks, but that's neither here nor there.

Having him be that much of an ass to Bethany wouldn't have the same effect. For one, it's Bethany, and he would just come off as pettily cruel considering how demure and reserved she is -- she purposefully doesn't call attention to herself and doesn't cast much of a shadow for Carver to mope in.

It was magic that made Carver feel insecure. Well.... that and Hawke being the eldest. Carver couldn't stand both those things, and he was willing to be a major ass to both Hawke and Bethany by using her as a shield when he blames her death on Hawke.

The sibling rivalry between Hawke and Carver could easily be preserved, sure, but the resentment of Hawke specifically because Hawke and Bethany were both mages and he is not would have to go and that is the buoy of his plot relevance. Without magic and his self-realized alienation as the central conflict of his and Hawke's relationship, he does not serve the purpose he is intended to serve.

I agree that his alienation is a cause for the sibling rivalry he has with Hawke, but I still feel that the devs could've worked something into the game had both siblings lived

[GavrielKay]

I like the point that choosing in some fashion which sibling dies might give it a bit more weight. As it is, I just get annoyed that the story assumes Hawke will feel terrible at the loss despite the player having interacted with said sibling for just a few minutes. It's silly that Leandra is all upset at you and I'm just thinking, "what, you wanted me to jump in and protect a stranger?" I don't mind tragedy in a game, but something has to make the player CARE first.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm amused by these threads because if the option was available than Leandra blaming Hawke for their sibling's death would change from "hysterical ranting" to "legitimate criticism."

I don't think it's legitimate criticism either way, and find it odd that you do.  If the ogre is coming and you have to save one or the other or they will both die, how is it legitimate that she blames you for the death of the one who the ogre kills?

The ogre is the one that did the killing.  Your analysis is baffling. 

[ipgd]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It was magic that made Carver feel insecure. Well.... that and Hawke being the eldest. Carver couldn't stand both those things, and he was willing to be a major ass to both Hawke and Bethany by using her as a shield when he blames her death on Hawke.

That's not targetting Bethany, though. He was specifically trying to hurt Hawke.

If he were to "prey" on Bethany in that fashion, it would be difficult to empathize with him as the embittered victim of loneliness and alienation given her very passive and inoffensive nature. Hawke is the eldest and the "favorite" and in a relative position of power that Bethany does not share; he would just be horribly unsympathetic if depicted as undeservedly cruel to her. It would also lose the parallels to Gamlen and Leandra, which is a dynamic I rather like.

I agree that his alienation is a cause for the sibling rivalry he has with Hawke, but I still feel that the devs could've worked something into the game had both siblings lived

Oh, sure, they could have. Carver could just be jealous of Hawke in general, apart from the magic thing, but then he would lose his intended plot purpose as specifically a product of the negative societal impacts of magic.

Either sibling is just sort of extraneous to their same-classed Hawke, and potentially an imbalancing factor. It would throw the bias extremely heavily towards the mage end with Bethany alive on top of Hawke being a mage himself, and Carver would basically just be irrelevant to a rogue/warrior Hawke.

Of course, either of the siblings could have been totally rewritten to serve some other purpose if they had wished for the both of them to live. Aveline also could have been an Antivan drug smuggler who moonlights as a transvestite burlesque dancer, but that was unfortunately not the direction they wanted to take her character. I'm just saying there's a rhyme and a reason for one of them being dead.

GavrielKay wrote...

I like the point that choosing in some fashion which sibling dies might give it a bit more weight. As it is, I just get annoyed that the story assumes Hawke will feel terrible at the loss despite the player having interacted with said sibling for just a few minutes. It's silly that Leandra is all upset at you and I'm just thinking, "what, you wanted me to jump in and protect a stranger?" I don't mind tragedy in a game, but something has to make the player CARE first.

I don't think the point is to make the player sad. The point is to remove the other half of what would be an imbalance in perspective in the family.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[mesmerizedish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm amused by these threads because if the option was available than Leandra blaming Hawke for their sibling's death would change from "hysterical ranting" to "legitimate criticism."

I love you.

[upsettingshorts]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Your analysis is baffling. 

So is wanting this option.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 juin 2011 - 10:22 .

[Wulfram]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

There's no reason to go to the Deep Roads unless you have a mage you need to protect. The game makes very clear that that's why you're trying to get aboard the expedition.

[EDIT] Did it have to be this way? No. Just like they didn't have to kill a sibling. But that's the way the writers wanted it.

No reason?

What about fortune and glory?

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 juin 2011 - 10:31 .

[TEWR]

@ipgd: I don't think it would vanish. It would certainly be mitigated, especially if you kept the dialogue as it is in DA2. But I think if you added a 3-way (not that 3-way!) conversation between Hawke, Bethany, and Carver where each could present their points in a civil yet heated manner, you might be able to see the merits of both of the spectrums' arguments.


Then you would have to decide what you agree with more eventually: freedom for everyone even if it means a life on the run, or safety for everyone. Do you let the mages experience true freedom? Or do you support them being locked away so in the long run hopefully nobody suffers?

[Mike 9987]

DrunkDeadman wrote...
Had both Carver and Bethany survived, the rest of the game, especially Act 3, could have been much more interesting.

come to think of it, doing act one with bethany, carver and varric would have been pretty enjoyable. i wish it was possible. 

[rwscissors702]

I wonder how things might have turned out if the twins had lived and Hawke had been killed by the Ogre. Does Carver man up during his time with the mercenary company the way he does with the Wardes, or is living in the shadow of a dead older sibling too much?

[Sons of Horus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Carver hardly makes me empathize with the Templars. He just comes across as a child who can't take anything for what it is. He has to find a problem with everything. Even when he becomes a Templar, it's out of spite towards Hawke and magic, because he wasn't born a mage. It doesn't make me like or agree with the Templars at all.

I'm choosing to stand for what's right when **** hits the fan in Act 3. He's choosing to annul a Circle that wasn't beyond saving, especially when Orsino made a last ditch effort to convince Meredith to rescind her Annulment. Orsino said he would gladly assist in her search through the tower if she wouldn't kill them for an act they had nothing to do with.

He's choosing to agree with a lunatic. His duty as a Templar is to protect the populus from mages and to protect mages from the populus. But he chose to fight the mages and his brother/sister because of the reason that is "the people will demand blood". The people aren't bloodthirsty savages. They will see justice done yes, but they will see it done to the one who did the act, especially if the power in Kirkwall (Meredith) said he was the one who did it.

Having him and Bethany both live wouldn't upset anything. He could be the same way he is currently to Bethany and even worse to both Bethany and a Mage Hawke.


EDIT: This isn't to say that I despise Carver. I like him actually. He's a cool cat.

Have you taken Carver to the Blood Mage Hideout during enemies among us? Having grown up seeing a lot of magic, Carver did not see it as something to fear, though he never truly understood it, until he witnesses the darker side of it from Kirkwall's blood mages. I think this is why he develops a more Templar viewpoint.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 25 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[Blessed Silence]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

One design decision I really think was idiotic on the part of the devs was to make the class of Hawke decide who is killed by the Ogre, rather than let Hawke decide.

I think it was a huge waste of an opportunity to bring impact into all those times Leandra blames you for the death, and make your relationship with the surviving sibling all that much more interesting, and just in general have added a really "innovative" twist to the game (sorry, couldn't be helped).

I don't really understand how it would be unbalanced to have another fighter or mage PC available, especially considering NEITHER sibling is available after act 1 except for the small part of act 3.  Therefore, not really needed for balance to have an all mage party or all fighter party if the PC decides. Besides, artificially enforcing limits on classes is cheap.

Thoughts?

I would have kept it like it is except as a Rogue, you choose.

[Aradace]

FJVP wrote...

I would have really liked this, though I suspect that many people would always choose to have Bethany live instead of Carver, since Bethany is also more useful (Carver is just a weaker copy of Fenris). I know I would

That and the fact that Carver is just a complete and total ******.  I actually wave "bye bye" at the screen whenever Carver dies lol.  And any mage I have where Carver does live, I kill him off in the Deep Roads.  If BioWares aim was to make the player base hate Carver, then mission mother-frickin' accomplished on my end lol.  There has been no character, in no game, with any company, that I hate more than Carver.  Leliana used to be at the top of that list but Carver has officially dethroned her out of that seat.  And Fenris is almost as bad with his "Wahh!! Wahh!!! I was a slave!!  wahh!!! Wahh!!! I hate magic!!! Wahh!!! wahh!!! Magic ruins everything!!"  Oooh boo frickin hoo you big ****g baby.  Take some of that wood from that cross you feel you're being crucified upon, build a bridge, and get the hell over yourself.  

*Clears throat* Sorry about that....Talking about Carver inevitably gets me talking about Fenris lol
/rant off

Modifié par Aradace, 04 juillet 2011 - 01:01 .

[TEWR]

Sons of Horus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Carver hardly makes me empathize with the Templars. He just comes across as a child who can't take anything for what it is. He has to find a problem with everything. Even when he becomes a Templar, it's out of spite towards Hawke and magic, because he wasn't born a mage. It doesn't make me like or agree with the Templars at all.

I'm choosing to stand for what's right when **** hits the fan in Act 3. He's choosing to annul a Circle that wasn't beyond saving, especially when Orsino made a last ditch effort to convince Meredith to rescind her Annulment. Orsino said he would gladly assist in her search through the tower if she wouldn't kill them for an act they had nothing to do with.

He's choosing to agree with a lunatic. His duty as a Templar is to protect the populus from mages and to protect mages from the populus. But he chose to fight the mages and his brother/sister because of the reason that is "the people will demand blood". The people aren't bloodthirsty savages. They will see justice done yes, but they will see it done to the one who did the act, especially if the power in Kirkwall (Meredith) said he was the one who did it.

Having him and Bethany both live wouldn't upset anything. He could be the same way he is currently to Bethany and even worse to both Bethany and a Mage Hawke.


EDIT: This isn't to say that I despise Carver. I like him actually. He's a cool cat.

Have you taken Carver to the Blood Mage Hideout during enemies among us? Having grown up seeing a lot of magic, Carver did not see it as something to fear, though he never truly understood it, until he witnesses the darker side of it from Kirkwall's blood mages. I think this is why he develops a more Templar viewpoint.

I took him there once, but I don't remember the dialogue he had.

[Nerdage]

If it were Hawke's choice (that's Hawke the PC, just for clarity) I'd really expect the option to sacrifice myself to save both, I'm not saying it would be a good option to have, but I'd expect it to be there really.

I'm fine with who lives being decided by the player's class, I resent the game forcing a 'balanced' group on me, but it's not a big deal. They could've given some in-game circumstances for the possible outcomes though, some reason why Carver would die instead of Bethany because I'm playing a warrior or whatever the case may be.

So perhaps a melee PC (warrior/rogue) would be fighting the ogre with support from Bethany, then the PC gets knocked back into Bethany and they both fall down, Carver rushes in to stop it finishing them off while they're down, and the ogre kills Carver while Bethany and the PC are getting back up.
Then for a mage the PC is supporting Carver in melee, Carver's knocked into the PC, etc, etc, etc... Just some in-game reason why my class changes the outcome of the fight.

Modifié par nerdage, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:14 .

[ReallyRue]

I never understood why Carver/Bethany died by class either. Gameplay-wise it never seemed to make a difference because if you have rogue/warrior Hawke with Carver, you can get Merrill or Anders almost immediately afterwards. And with mage Hawke and Bethany, you have Aveline with you the whole time.

Story-wise, I don't see how it would have played out differently. In my rogue Hawke playthrough, Bethany died in the Deep Roads, yet Hawke continued to be involved in the mage/templar conflict right up until the end of the game. And if Bethany joins the Wardens, there's still very little incentive for Hawke to get involved. Personally, I'd have loved for them both to live.

-Mage/warrior/rogue Hawke + Bethany/Carver Warden = No story change.

-Mage Hawke + Bethany joins Circle = However the templars find out Bethany is a mage, maybe they don't know about Hawke and Bethany keeps quiet (she is, after all, the friend-sibling). Or Hawke isn't there.

-Warrior/rogue Hawke + Carver templar = Still Carver's attempt to make it on his own, perhaps protect Bethany from the inside (especially if she's taken to the Circle)

[Kimberly Shaw]

Again, how on earth does Hawke choosing which of the two to save make the mother's ranting that Hawke caused the siblings death legitmate? The ogre killed the sibling in all cases, not Hawke. That makes no sense.

I also don't buy the "narrative" making it necessary for the class to decide which sibling lives as the 3rd act is the only one that is Mage v Templar dominant and by that time both siblings can be dead from the Deep Roads + Ogre. So...um..yeah, I guess not.

[Sutamina]

"Again, how on earth does Hawke choosing which of the two to save make the mother's ranting that Hawke caused the siblings death legitmate?" She was being emotional not rational.

"The ogre killed the sibling in all cases, not Hawke. That makes no sense."
This statment makes as much sense to me as
"Elephants have flat feet. That makes no sense" or even the Chewbacca arguement.
Kimberly Shaw what are you talking about.

[por favor]

I agree with OP. I would have preferred to make the decision on who lives instead of having that be decided based on my class.

[Huntress]

I don't like the killing of families members, if Hawke had to lose one should have been the one left behind in town, exemple: carver go to templar while Beth and hawke confront him for his new life direction, if Beth is behind well then she go to the circle and Hawke and Carver had a talk about that ( depending or rival or friednship) carver/Beth and hawke decide if try to safe beth/carver or kill /confront carver/Beth at the end ( that option should be left for the player), anyway losing 3 of the family is not good ( my views) I wouldn't force this on anyone of course, some people need to kill companions, mothers, cat, siblings, not me..