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[Xeranx]

corrin1984 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Why would you think that if she offers Shepard a choice?  She's already been thwarted before if her intent was to kill Shepard in her apartment.

Well to be perfectly frank... she's evil. Yeah she gives Shepard a choice. But Morinth isn't exactly all about brute force. Seduction's her game. If she didn't let Shepard think he/she had a choice, she never would have gotten him/her.

** ME2 SPOILER **

We know if yShepard does sleep with her, he/she dies, and Morinths got a ll smile on her face. I just don't think she truly believed Shepard was strong enough to withstand her, I think she was just  seducing him/her. If in the third game she's still been turned down, and as Shepard is the ONLY one who knows that she's pretending to be Samara... he/she needs to be eliminated. (Yeah yeah I know Kasumi hinted she knew too but still) Shepard is a loose end if Morinth and he are both alive in ME3. So, again, it's in her best interest to kill him.

I don't know how many times I come upon the "she's evil" clause, but I should get paid to see it.  You know she's evil how?  What does she tell you that let's you know she's evil without a doubt?  Her mother?  Her antagonist whose sole mission for the past 400 years is to kill her?  The very same person who Morinth has always gone to lengths to avoid?  I can't buy that.  I'm sorry.

I have no reason to believe that Samara doesn't tell the truth at times, but I have very little reason to believe that she's telling the whole truth.  Morinth is an undeveloped character.  Everything about her is a mystery.  You don't even know her motivations.  How can you state for a fact that she's evil?  Nef?  The very things Morinth says concerning Nef don't imply a cold-blooded lean on her part.

Morinth, on the other hand, has no reason to lie to Shepard.  Shepard's been fed stories about Morinth before even meeting her.  Trying to combat that wouldn't help her out in any way.  The only thing she can be is honest.  And everything she says I feel I can take without so large a grain (or several) of salt as I would have to with Samara.

Shepard giving consent yields a game over screen.  Contrast that with Shepard's death in the suicide mission and how that yields an epilogue.  The first time it happened I went back how many saves to see if there was something I missed.  I completely forgot about Bioware saying that there wouldn't be another Asari/human pairing in ME2.  I kept searching until I gave up in frustration.

If Bioware want to be true to the character they partially created they won't make her two-dimensional.  They won't make her think Shepard won't survive.  He/she was able to surprise her in her apartment.  That action gave rise to curiosity, which gave rise to realization (more about the situation than the possibility of an actual union with Shepard), and if you chose Morinth, there could most definitely be a result in Morinth having some hope. 

[Xeranx]

mrsph wrote...

Morinth is a sociopath. She doesn't need a reason to lie. She'll say whatever the hell she wants if it gets Shepard to feel a twinge of sympathy so s/he can be manipulated later.

And you know this for a fact, right?  Or are you assuming something? 

Why can't the same be said of Samara?

[Xeranx]

Please tell me where the game says this because I don't remember coming across it. The only info about Morinth I got was from Samara. Morinth was housed by the Eclipse Sisters on Illium. Aria wasn't all too concerned with her. Then again that could be because she used Nef as a patsy. Who knows?

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I'd say that it's suggested that Morinth is a sociopath but we don't have enough evidence to say for sure. She doesn't seem to show any remorse for her victims which could suggest a lack of empathy but this isn't certain.

Even if Morinth is a sociopath does that mean she can't form some sort of friendship with Shepard? I really don't know enough about personality disorders to say. I always thought Morinth is quite curious about Shepard because Shepard managed to resist her. I think that Morinth and Shepard could make for quite an interesting friendship in ME3.

[Mathy16]

Every character WILL be in ME3 in a way...
including Samara/Morinth

[Xeranx]

mrsph wrote...



It doesn't use the word, but close enough

And yet, her in-game dialogue and actions don't reflect what's presented in the image.  So, how can you definitvely state anything about Morinth other than the few facts we're given and is agreed upon by everything in-game?

[corrin1984]

Morinth justifies her actions as beneficial... in game she DOES say that although her victims die, they felt the pure bliss at the end. She DOES say that... that's a sociopath rationalizing killing victims by overloading their nervous systems. Again, I'm not saying she's a bad character to have in game... far from it. Villains are awesome. But, make no mistake, she's a villain.

She's addicted to killing(as said in the game) and she has no intention of stopping, as shown by the fact she wants to do it to Shepard too. Again, maybe it is because she feels like she's giving her victims pure bliss, that they can't handle it isn't her fault. But she IS still killing them. Her actions speak louder than words. You could claim that her assisting in saving the galaxy is proof she's not ALL bad... but it's a flawed argument. If the Reapers invaded, everyone dies, including her. Stopping them is self preservation, and so would killing Shepard.

In the end, she kills people. That's a fact. Not in an effort to help them, or for any GOOD reason, just to kill them and make herself more powerful. As evidence by the fact that even though she's quite younger than Samara, she's an equal match to her in terms of Biotic power(which is why Shepard had to choose who lives and dies)

It's perfectly fair to state there is more to her than meets the eye. But... as defined by Bioware's description of her having "little regard for the sanctity of life not the consequences of her actions"... she's evil.

[Dean_the_Young]

No, she's amoral. Unless you define 'evil' as 'not having motivations I approve,' then she's still not a malevolent force. If you do use that definition, then I'd argue Samara is even more evil as a pure deotological enforcer.

Samara certainly kills, quite more than Morinth really, and is no less honest about how she intends to continue doing so after her mission. Whether its slaughtering Krogan until they learn compassion, or anyone else her Code considers 'unjust'.

Even more than Morinth, she isn't interested in self-preservation. She's an ideological zealot: at least Morinth will back down and compromise to save herself. Samara is honor-bound not to.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 juin 2011 - 12:55 .

[Xeranx]

corrin1984 wrote...

Morinth justifies her actions as beneficial... in game she DOES say that although her victims die, they felt the pure bliss at the end. She DOES say that... that's a sociopath rationalizing killing victims by overloading their nervous systems. Again, I'm not saying she's a bad character to have in game... far from it. Villains are awesome. But, make no mistake, she's a villain.

She's addicted to killing(as said in the game) and she has no intention of stopping, as shown by the fact she wants to do it to Shepard too. Again, maybe it is because she feels like she's giving her victims pure bliss, that they can't handle it isn't her fault. But she IS still killing them. Her actions speak louder than words. You could claim that her assisting in saving the galaxy is proof she's not ALL bad... but it's a flawed argument. If the Reapers invaded, everyone dies, including her. Stopping them is self preservation, and so would killing Shepard.

In the end, she kills people. That's a fact. Not in an effort to help them, or for any GOOD reason, just to kill them and make herself more powerful. As evidence by the fact that even though she's quite younger than Samara, she's an equal match to her in terms of Biotic power(which is why Shepard had to choose who lives and dies)

It's perfectly fair to state there is more to her than meets the eye. But... as defined by Bioware's description of her having "little regard for the sanctity of life not the consequences of her actions"... she's evil.

Not knowing her motivations and stating that she kills for no good reason is a flawed argument.  There are many reasons people can come up with for why she kills anyone.  That you don't know the reason means you can't state absolutes as to why she does anything.  Thinking that she gives people bliss during a meld could be her coping mechanism.  She could truly hate what she is.  She could be searching for a means to overcome the side-effect of someone dying due to the meld. 

Fact: If there's no concrete evidence of her reasons for what she did, you don't have any strong foundation for any reasons you feel she may have.

[100k]

ME3 Prediction:

Samara's Justicar status will allow her to help Shepard (and Liara) unite the Matriarchs, Asari commandos, and Thessian military to join the fight.

Morinth's Ardat-Yakshi abilities will allow her to easily pervert all of Thessia. She will become an Asari queen of sorts, and will use her powers to force her race to join the fight.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alternative ME3 Prediction:

Samara's Justicar Code obligates her to try and kill Shepard (and Liara) for their roles and past injustices (Arrival and taking over the galaxy's biggest information crime ring).

Morinth just tries to survive.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, she's amoral. Unless you define 'evil' as 'not having motivations I approve,' then she's still not a malevolent force. If you do use that definition, then I'd argue Samara is even more evil as a pure deotological enforcer.

Samara certainly kills, quite more than Morinth really, and is no less honest about how she intends to continue doing so after her mission. Whether its slaughtering Krogan until they learn compassion, or anyone else her Code considers 'unjust'.

Even more than Morinth, she isn't interested in self-preservation. She's an ideological zealot: at least Morinth will back down and compromise to save herself. Samara is honor-bound not to.

There is a big difference between someone who upholds the law at all costs and someone who kills for pleasure.

You may not like Samara's methods or even like her personally.  That's fine.  But there's no comparison between an enforcer of Asari law and a murderer.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, she's amoral. Unless you define 'evil' as 'not having motivations I approve,' then she's still not a malevolent force. If you do use that definition, then I'd argue Samara is even more evil as a pure deotological enforcer.

Samara certainly kills, quite more than Morinth really, and is no less honest about how she intends to continue doing so after her mission. Whether its slaughtering Krogan until they learn compassion, or anyone else her Code considers 'unjust'.

Even more than Morinth, she isn't interested in self-preservation. She's an ideological zealot: at least Morinth will back down and compromise to save herself. Samara is honor-bound not to.

There is a big difference between someone who upholds the law at all costs and someone who kills for pleasure.

Indeed. Sociapathy isn't necessarily one of them: you can be a sociopath while abiding to the laws, or amoral and not follow them.

You may not like Samara's methods or even like her personally.  That's fine.  But there's no comparison between an enforcer of Asari law and a murderer.

Actually, there is. Quite a few, really. The crime of unrestrained legal enforcement (especially capital punishment) is one about murder: certainly by far most of the progressive countries in the world have outlawed the death penalty outright as a form of state-sanctioned murder.

Samara can't even claim to be state-sanctioned, though. Infact, the entire premise of the Justicars can be considered vigilantism run amock, and when vigilantees kill people it's still often considered, well, murder.

'Noble' murder, perhaps, but everyone's weak towards a sob story and righteous proclemations of Justice. Such things have never been abused, after all.

[Ulathar]

Maybe she won't be a permanent squadmate, but I'm pretty sure both Morinth and Samara will get a cameo if they survived the suicide mission. I hope they'll get different ones, though...I don't want to have Morinth pretend to be Samara again 90% of the time. It would also be interesting to see what happened because of that decision.
I mean...will Samara fight against a Renegade Shepard? Will Morinth "enslave" groups of Soldiers and have them follow Shepard's orders? Will Samara and her influence help a Paragon Shepard during a mission? Many things are possible and both characters still have a lot of potential, imo.

[Raizo]

I would be very dissapointed if I could not have Samara as a squadmate in ME3 since she is one of my favorite ME squadmates of all time. Her justicar code compells her to destroy evil and to protect the innocent and even though we can't exactly call the Reapers evil ( since we don't know why they do what they do ) they are planning to destroy all life in the Universe, that's a lot of innocent lives, I can't imagine Samara having anything better to do than helping Shepard with his mission to save the Universe from the Reaper threat.

Morinth is bit more difficult to clasify. I don't think she is evil but she does not have a 'code' like her mother, we don't know what she will stand for if anything since she seems to be more concerned with living her life as she sees fit regardless of the consequences. I do feel that self preservation is very important to her however and since the Reapers are a threat to her life ( as well all the potentail mates in the Univrse, without those she can't get her fix ) I can also buy her working with Shepard to stop the Reapers.

[Seboist]

Samara and Morinth being replaced in favor of creepy celebrity stalker Liara is a great tragedy.

[Eurhetemec]

Seboist wrote...

Samara and Morinth being replaced in favor of creepy celebrity stalker Liara is a great tragedy.

I have to admit, I laughed at that description of Liara. She does give that vibe in ME1. And Shepard becomes an aging slightly creepy rockstar by reflection of that.

I don't think Samara/Morinth was ever on the cards for squadmember in ME3. I mean, they're both fun in ME2, but not very distinctive, ability-wise, and when there's already a permanent Asari on the crew (as there is this time), then there's little reason for another.

I do hope this outfit doesn't mean Liara has moved on to becoming a Justicar, because sweet space jebus, it was hard enough to believe "tough chick" Liara in ME2, then Shadowbroker Liara in LotSB, and if she now becomes Justicar Liara, randomly shooting dudes for crossing the road without looking both ways, I think I won't be able to do anything but giggle every time she appears. I'd be like someone's terrible tabletop RPG character.

[corrin1984]

"I am the genetic destiny of the asari!" According to her own words, no, Morinth does NOT hate what she is. It's also wrong, because her kind are incapable of reproduction. If the asari are destined never to reproduce... she's basically the harbinger of their downfall.

Her actions: She once convinced an entire village that she was a God. They sacrificed children to her until Samara tried to stop her. Sending the villagers in waves against Samara to cover her escape, only the children of the village remained. This is not a person who is remorseful about her actions. Again, she's an EXCELLENT character, so is Samara, but that doesn't make either of them less or more than what they are. Samara's a killer too, and follows a code that justifies it. In some cases, she kills unarmed people in her hunt for Morinth... I wouldn't call her morally pure either. But... Morinth is addicted to killing and will use violence and seduction to get what she wants... which in many cases is the death of her "lovers". That is by definition, evil. Anyway, getting back to the forum topic I still don't think either will be a squad mate. But they will have an important role in the story... hopefully as a villain that Shepard has to defeat.

[100k]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alternative ME3 Prediction:

Samara's Justicar Code obligates her to try and kill Shepard (and Liara) for their roles and past injustices (Arrival and taking over the galaxy's biggest information crime ring).

Morinth just tries to survive.

This too. Can't wait for my Renegade Shepard to face Samara.

[Mujokan]

This makes me feel a bit better. I wanted to get Morinth on my second playthrough, but this time around my morality score apparently wasn't high enough. (My renegade score is just over the final bar with a character imported from ME1, but my paragon is at almost 3.5, so apparently I have not been single-minded enough to get Morinth this time with my tough-guy second character.)

So though it is selfish of me, I hope that these two don't have much of an impact in ME3, since I can't get Morinth. I am not going to play through another game of ME2 mechanically choosing all the renegade choices just for that. Automatically choosing dialog options for the sake of power is the best way to ruin a roleplaying game for yourself (I'm looking at you, KOTOR).

I am playing an Adept with Dominate from my first paragon playthrough when I just looked at the other option to see what happened. I thought this guy could relate to Morinth. Quite bummed I can't get her to live except by failing the mission.