133 réponses à ce sujet

[implodinggoat]

Alright hear me out on this one....

In Mass Effect 1:  We had to level up our charm and intimidate skills forcing us to focus on a particular path and keeping us constantly guessing about how much we'd need to level up these skills to get the dialogue options we wanted.

In Mass Effect 2:  Our charm and intimidate skills were based on how often we choose paragon or renegade options forcing us to focus on a particular path and encouraging us to make choices based not on how we felt; but upon how said choice would effect our charm and intimidate skills.

Presently...

In Mass Effect 3:  We have a combined system where in we need to level up our paragon or renegade bonus which keeps us guessing about how much paragon or renegade influence we need to get the dialogue options we want AND our charm and intimidate skills are based on how often we make paragon or renegade choice which forces us to focus on a particular path and encourages to make choices based not on how we feel; but upon how said choice will effect our charm and intimidate skills.

My Critique

All of these systems interfere with the players ability to make the choices they feel are right and encourages us to think on an artificial meta level where in we judge our decisions based upon how they'll effect our stats.

Furthermore whenever we see a charm or intimidate option we automatically choose it because we know that its going to be the best choice thus putting us in a position where we don't think about the decisions we're making.

My Suggestion

Eliminate charm and intimidate dialogue choices altogether and have the paragon and renegade score merely be a reflection of how you're playing the game.

Instead of Charm and Intimidate Options

1:  Encourage the player to think about what sort of argument is going to be most effective against the character or faction that they're talking to. 

For example... If you're dealing with a scumbag you're probably going to be better off trying to appeal to their greed rather than appealing to their sense of duty while if you're dealing with an honorable character then the opposite would be true.   Likewise using intimidation on a coward might be very effective; but if you try it on a SPECTRE then it ain't gonna fly.

Thus if I can construct a good enough argument then I may be able to convince even a character with whom I have a bad reputation to side with me; but in order to do so I'll have to think carefully about my dialogue choices rather than just automatically picking the charm or intimidate option since I know that those will be the options which will let me have my cake and eat it too.

2:  Give players additional dialogue options based on past interactions with the character or faction they are talking to.  

Rather then giving me dialogue options based on my overall reputation as a paragon or renegade give me options based on how I've interacted with the people I'm talking to in the past. 

For example in Mass Effect 2 there's an option to rally the crowd at Tali's trial where Kal Reegor and Veetor will speak up for you if you helped them in the past, this option is very satisfying and unlike the charm and intimidate options you aren't certain that its the right answer which gives the choice a sense of mystery that the charm and intimidate options lack.

If I've got a good reputation with a particular group then I may be presented with opportunities I wouldn't otherwise have or at the very least a dialogue choice that I know will work, while if I've sided against them then I may be able to get them back on my side; but I'll have to use some cunning to argue them into seeing things my way.

[King Zeel]

No. I like intimidate options. you leave my renegade alone.

[onelifecrisis]

TL;DR

But I agree with the thread title!

Unfortunately this is sort of embedded in ME now, but I think BW have taken enough flak over the Paragon/Renegade system that they'll hopefully come up with better ways of doing things in future games.

[AdmiralCheez]

It could work, but I don't think the old system is going away. Tradition and all.

[implodinggoat]

King Zeel wrote...

No. I like intimidate options. you leave my renegade alone.

I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to do cool **** like pistol whipping guys and what not and I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't be able to play like a renegade or like a paragon.

I'm just saying the intimidate option shouldn't be highlighted in bright red more or less saying... THIS IS THE RIGHT DIALOGUE CHOICE.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 24 juin 2011 - 06:55 .

[Paula Deen]

I admit, I do hate the "THESE CONVERSATION OPTIONS ARE CORRECT."

One of the really nice things about Samara's loyalty mission is that your assignment is all about conversational skill, and not about having a high Paragon or high Renegade (no love for mixed, apparently) stats.

[Rheia]

@Paula Deen
Funny you mention Samara's loyalty mission... because quite a bit of her mission is actually paragon/renegade score tied.

I usually do her loyalty mission as one of the last, and I never, ever have enough of either score to resist last of the Morinth's commands since I prefer to mix my responses between paragon/renegade/neutral.

I accept that this is how the mechanic works, but it still feels flawed.

Another example: take Thane's loyalty mission. Only very high renegade score lets you pull the very sensible 'I'm a Spectre, start talking' card during the interrogation. Arguably, what's stopping my paragade who is almost but not quite there on renegade scale, or paragon from doing the same, other than a flawed game mechanic?

I just don't like gaming the system by trying to get the highest amount of one score or the other in order to use it on some important/gamechanging decision in the future even though non-colored responses that don't yield the points feel more natural in some circumstances.

Modifié par Rheia, 24 juin 2011 - 07:14 .

[ShdwPlayer]

I agree with this but I wouldn't bet on Bioware implementing it.

It is actually a very complex thing you are suggesting where what you say actually has *gasp ramifications.

Again doubts on this ever being in ME3. But damn would I love it to be so.

Modifié par ShdwPlayer, 24 juin 2011 - 07:24 .

[Weiser_Cain]

I wish we had stats, then they could just add paths depending on them. Also a way to get there that relies on the player's smarts.

[Undertone]

I like this. That would actually make people think outside of the box and pick something other the blue or red. ME2 was a disaster in terms of the morality system.

[Dangerfoot]

I'm on board. The faux morality system in ME2 was wildly uneven, mostly irrelevant, and totally railroaded me into meta-gaming 90% of the time.

[Reptillius]

honestly I'd like a bit more situations where I get interrupts. I really enjoyed those in ME2. I'd even like moments where you have the option to do either... Or options not to do them at all.

Then again I'm a ruthless heartless beast and I didn't find it too hard to pick Renegade options with or without them being bright Red.  Such as in ME1.

Modifié par Reptillius, 24 juin 2011 - 07:41 .

[implodinggoat]

Reptillius wrote...

honestly I'd like a bit more situations where I get interrupts. I really enjoyed those in ME2. I'd even like moments where you have the option to do either... Or options not to do them at all.

I like the interrupts too.

I definitely don't want to get rid of them and I think labeling them paragon or renegade is a good way of giving you an indication of what they are likely to do.

I just don't want you thinking that you should or shouldn't choose an interrupt based on how its going to effect your paragon or renegade score.

[Manic Sheep]

I would much prefer a system like this. It would be much more interesting. I hate the paragon and renegade system form ME2. I don't see it happening tho, I imagine it would be harder to do and they aren’t likely to change it up that much in the last game I think.

[Rheia]

Also, a small addition regarding ME1.

It had a 'combined' system too. You had to level your charm/intimidate, but the limit of how much you could level each one depended on your current paragon/renegade percentage. You couldn't fill up the intimidate bar 100% unless you had something like 80% (guestimating here....) of the renegade bar even if you had skill points to spare.

[implodinggoat]

Manic Sheep wrote...

I would much prefer a system like this. It would be much more interesting. I hate the paragon and renegade system form ME2. I don't see it happening tho, I imagine it would be harder to do and they aren’t likely to change it up that much in the last game I think.

I think it might be too late to impliment as well; but I don't think it would be too difficult.

Here's How I'd Do It...

1: Every conversation has successful and unsuccessful dialogue choices.

2: At the end of a conversation the successful choices are tallied up and if you score well enough then you will be successful in convincing the character(s) to go along with Shepard's suggestion.

3:  For any conversation there will always be a successful way for a player to navigate the conversation without choosing any renegade options or without choosing any paragon options.

For example you might have a dialogue choice where....

You have 3 choices 1 paragon, 1 renegade and 1 neutral and 2 out of the 3 are successful; but you don't know which two.  So a Paragon can get it right (or wrong) by choosing just between paragon and neutral and a Renegade can get it right (or wrong) by choosing just between renegade and neutral.

or where...

You have 4 choices.  2 more or less paragon and 2 more or less renegade and out of those 4 there's 1 successful paragon answer and 1 successful renegade answer.  Thus regadless of whether you go  paragon or renegade you'll still be able to make a right or wrong choice.

[MrDizazta]

Rheia wrote...

Also, a small addition regarding ME1.

It had a 'combined' system too. You had to level your charm/intimidate, but the limit of how much you could level each one depended on your current paragon/renegade percentage. You couldn't fill up the intimidate bar 100% unless you had something like 80% (guestimating here....) of the renegade bar even if you had skill points to spare.

75% actually, and you could theoretically could increase you charm/intimidate to 100% with mutiple playthoughs with the same character.

[implodinggoat]

Rheia wrote...

Also, a small addition regarding ME1.

It had a 'combined' system too. You had to level your charm/intimidate, but the limit of how much you could level each one depended on your current paragon/renegade percentage. You couldn't fill up the intimidate bar 100% unless you had something like 80% (guestimating here....) of the renegade bar even if you had skill points to spare.

Almost right.

In ME1 you got bonus charm or intimidate points based on how paragon or renegade you were.   So Renegades would get bonus intimidate points and Paragons would get bonus Charm points.

However; by investing points in charm or intimidate during leveling you could max out both charm and intimidate regardless of whether you were playing Paragon or Renegade or somewhere inbetween.   But; that required you to neglect a lot of your other skills in the interests of maxing out your charisma.

[ShdwPlayer]

There are ways to implement this I'm sure. I'd love to be able to answer truthfully instead of worrying about how it would affect my ability to resolve situations later on in the game.

Now the question becomes would Bioware tweak their system enough in the 3rd game.

Also a little side note. Even without the color coding, top responses are for the majority of the game paragon, and bottom responses renegade. (Sarcasm) Unsure on how to respond a particularly difficult or confusing dialogue? Simply select the arbitrarily Paragon or Renegade response!

[nhsk]

Just have one score called "influence", then use it to either charm or intimidate at your leisure.

[Smeelia]

Rheia wrote...

Also, a small addition regarding ME1.

It had a 'combined' system too. You had to level your charm/intimidate, but the limit of how much you could level each one depended on your current paragon/renegade percentage. You couldn't fill up the intimidate bar 100% unless you had something like 80% (guestimating here....) of the renegade bar even if you had skill points to spare.

I think it's 75% of the bar, it is actually possible to get at least 10 and 12 (12 being the maximum) in one playthrough, possibly even 12 and 12.  I think you only need 50% of a bar to get 10 points in the related skill.  Other interesting points about the ME1 system, (to my knowledge) no Intimidate needs more than 10 points and there's only one Charm that does (it takes 12, on Feros), with 9 points you can do all but two charm options and all but one intimidate.  I can't guarantee the accuracy of these numbers but they're at least pretty close (I've currently got a Renegon with around 10 in each skill after one main mission and most of the early side quests).

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if they removed the system and simply let everyone use Charm/Intimidate and interrupt options regardless of alignment.  It gives more player choice without really requiring extra work.  It wouldn't be my most preferred option but it's better than the current limitations.  I don't really mind Charm/Intimidate always solving problems, you can solve most things without them and they add extra fun options that help enhance the character of Shepard.

As for making a system where you have to choose the right options and there's no highlight to help, I don't think I'd really have a problem with that but it'd be pretty easy for people to load up and choose the "right" option anyway so I'm not sure it would add too much.  A more complex system that was like a "battle" (of wills, possibly) in the conversation could be interesting (I think the new Deus Ex might have something like this) but I'm not sure they'd have the time to implement something like that, maybe for the next Mass Effect universe game.

[AresXX7]

nhsk wrote...

Just have one score called "influence", then use it to either charm or intimidate at your leisure.

^That sounds like the best option to me.

[DarkSeraphym]

Smeelia wrote...

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if they removed the system and simply let everyone use Charm/Intimidate and interrupt options regardless of alignment.  It gives more player choice without really requiring extra work.  It wouldn't be my most preferred option but it's better than the current limitations.  I don't really mind Charm/Intimidate always solving problems, you can solve most things without them and they add extra fun options that help enhance the character of Shepard.

As for making a system where you have to choose the right options and there's no highlight to help, I don't think I'd really have a problem with that but it'd be pretty easy for people to load up and choose the "right" option anyway so I'm not sure it would add too much.  A more complex system that was like a "battle" (of wills, possibly) in the conversation could be interesting (I think the new Deus Ex might have something like this) but I'm not sure they'd have the time to implement something like that, maybe for the next Mass Effect universe game.

I agree. The problem with using a system where there are right and wrong options is that it won't counteract the issue of metagaming in the slightest. You'd just run into the LA Noire problem where people will get the wrong option and just "restart the case" until they get all of the right ones. By that point, I'd rather them just save me the trouble and highlight those options in blue or red so that I do not have to waste my time reloading the game.

Realistically, I do not think there is a way to eliminate this problem in any video game. You are always confined to the mechanics of the game and can never say exactly what you want to say, instead you are forced to pick what would be closest thing to what you would actually say. Likewise, there are no save and reload buttons in the table-top versions of RPGs. You cannot simply go back and fix what you did simply because you didn't like consequences. It is simply human nature for us to not want to be wrong and having the game keep a hidden scoresheet is just going to result in players going back to fix what they said. The only way they could dodge the problem entirely would be to have all dialogue options be right no matter what you say and I think no one here would rather have that as a solution.

EDIT: Having an Influence or Persuade could help alleviate the problem, but I have personally never liked games including that as an actual skill and that is how it is usually done. The only thing that does is create a "cookie-cutter" build where I will have to start investing early skill points into something that is completely useless outside of dialogue for all of my characters.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 24 juin 2011 - 01:59 .

[DaringMoosejaw]

Maybe in a different game, but I like the way they've structured things even if they leave little room for moral ambiguity. I really don't want them changing the spirit of things in the last series.

[Skirata129]

create a unified persuasion skill and we can make our choices either paragon or renegade without worrying about compromising our game. Also, let me keep my red glowing eyes and scars.