133 réponses à ce sujet

[VegasVance]

Rheia wrote...

Another example: take Thane's loyalty mission. Only very high renegade score lets you pull the very sensible 'I'm a Spectre, start talking' card during the interrogation. Arguably, what's stopping my paragade who is almost but not quite there on renegade scale, or paragon from doing the same, other than a flawed game mechanic?

I just don't like gaming the system by trying to get the highest amount of one score or the other in order to use it on some important/gamechanging decision in the future even though non-colored responses that don't yield the points feel more natural in some circumstances.

^This, I was reinstated as a Spectre, I don't particually like torture, but I want answers quickly.  Keep the interupts, lose the forced dialogue. 

[zaklaus]

AresXX7 wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Just have one score called "influence", then use it to either charm or intimidate at your leisure.

^That sounds like the best option to me.

I Agree!!!

[VegasVance]

^When does apathy account as a Renegade option?

[King Zeel]

implodinggoat wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

No. I like intimidate options. you leave my renegade alone.

I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to do cool **** like pistol whipping guys and what not and I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't be able to play like a renegade or like a paragon.

I'm just saying the intimidate option shouldn't be highlighted in bright red more or less saying... THIS IS THE RIGHT DIALOGUE CHOICE.

Really? Sounds like an interesting idea. Is there a way this suggestion would include renegade points and such? 

[DarkSeraphym]

VegasVance wrote...

^When does apathy account as a Renegade option?

Probably because Paragon is supposed to stand for heroic and compassionate responses. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is a true Paragon to be apathetic.

[Smeelia]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

The only way they could dodge the problem entirely would be to have all dialogue options be right no matter what you say and I think no one here would rather have that as a solution.

That's sort of the system that's already in place, you can't really lose through dialogue options (well, maybe if you're talking to Morinth).

DarkSeraphym wrote...

EDIT: Having an Influence or Persuade could help alleviate the problem, but I have personally never liked games including that as an actual skill and that is how it is usually done. The only thing that does is create a "cookie-cutter" build where I will have to start investing early skill points into something that is completely useless outside of dialogue for all of my characters.

I tend to think it's worth the investment, even if there are no substantial benefits.  I just prefer characters that are "silver-tongued", especially the evil ones (there aren't enough games that let you be a charming evil character that almost no one realises is evil).

Nyoka wrote...

It's not like that. For instance, in Mordin's recruitment, you talk with some looters. You can intimidate them, say you don't care or kill them. All three are renegade options, all of them are valid.

Intimidating them is fun because you can then carry on looting yourself (I don't think you can actually say "it's mine!" but it's close at least).  Particularly hilarious is doing it the Paragon way and then looting as well.  I still wonder if that whole scene was a "Kleptomaniac Hero" joke.

[DarkSeraphym]

Smeelia wrote...

That's sort of the system that's already in place, you can't really lose through dialogue options (well, maybe if you're talking to Morinth).

To be fair, you have to have consequences to even have losing dialogue options in the first place. For BioWare, the consequence to your decisions from ME1 in ME2 was an email. Hopefully, they'll stay true to their word for ME3 and give us some consequences, but until they do there really is no way to have a system where there are losing options anyway (Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion were the first that I can recall).

I tend to think it's worth the investment, even if there are no substantial benefits.  I just prefer characters that are "silver-tongued", especially the evil ones (there aren't enough games that let you be a charming evil character that almost no one realises is evil).

In a standard RPG, I would agree with you. However, BioWare has gone beyond making standard RPGs and seems to have dedicated its resources to making Action-RPGs. Given the fact that they have said they've worked so much on the gameplay that the new Normal is now Veteran, I'd much rather see my skill points going into skills that I can actually use for gameplay rather than dialogue. Don't get me wrong, I love dialogue. I also love the same silver-tongued character you were refering to, it was how I played Dragon Age: Origins, but I think Mass Effect is the wrong game for it.

[Alamar2078]

If it matters Charm & Intimidate skills didn't bother me in ME1. On builds that I wanted to be more diplomatic I would just keep BOTH skills maxed out. Then I could play basically how I wanted. On skills where Shep was more of a shoot-first sort of guy I just pumped the other [usually combat] skills and went from there.

Honestly I think the ME1 system worked well. If you combined the skills into something like "Diplomacy" or similar that would be fine too.

[efrgfhnm_]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Despite what people here say, this has been praised as great by the reviewers, is legitimately fun and increases the replayability of the game. The system works as it is, no point in changing it again

[DarkSeraphym]

What is currently punishing about their system is not so much that Charm/Intimidate is based upon Renegade/Paragon, but that it is based upon a ratio. It is how much Renegade or Paragon you have chosen out of everything that is available. Perhaps they could simply alleviate the problem by making it based upon the actual values and not a ratio.

[Dean_the_Young]

Paula Deen wrote...

I admit, I do hate the "THESE CONVERSATION OPTIONS ARE CORRECT."

One of the really nice things about Samara's loyalty mission is that your assignment is all about conversational skill, and not about having a high Paragon or high Renegade (no love for mixed, apparently) stats.

This person is reasonable.

And not simply because this person is a Deen.

[Mixon]

I have one suggestion: make difficult achivements with rewards, for example just a visual items for your Shepard, like id tag on armor or just a cap... etc...passion we need

[bleetman]

Rheia wrote...

Another example: take Thane's loyalty mission. Only very high renegade score lets you pull the very sensible 'I'm a Spectre, start talking' card during the interrogation. Arguably, what's stopping my paragade who is almost but not quite there on renegade scale, or paragon from doing the same, other than a flawed game mechanic?

Precisely. The added sillyness of that particular situation is that failing to meet that renegade meter check lets you pistol whip the suspect repeatedly, which is apparently less renegade than telling him you're a spectre.

My first playthrough, I made choices, both in conversation and the more hefty plot involved ways, based on which I believed to be the best fit. Some days I punched batarians, some days I encouraged Jack not to shoot people. I was role playing rather than playing to a role, so to speak.

End result? I restarted after Tali got exiled due to lacking sufficient paragon or renegade to speak out on her behalf, simply because I didn't smack around enough reporters beforehand or whatever. I've ended up tweaking the amount of paragon/renegade recieved from importing slightly so as to give just enough to consistently play as paragade, and it's just plain more enjoyable.

So yes, I'd be happy if they did away with it entirely.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[ForwardUntoDawn]

The ME 1 system was almost certainly what I favored more because it allowed the complexity of being a Paragon who wasn't very charming or a total **** who knew how to talk to incoming rockets and make them decide to surrender before blowing up. Honestly, the diplomacy was one of my few major issues with ME2, which I otherwise felt was a big improvement across the board.

The fact that my Paragon Shepard with flecks of Renegade had problems both yelling at Miranda and Jack for being four years old as the galaxy's coming down around our ears -or- being -just slightly not enough of Jesus- to pull off highest-Para options was incredibly frustrating. I felt punished for portraying a realistic-feeling hero

[azerSheppard]

Agree, ME1 was ok, but ME2 system was HORRIBLE! We had to either go completely renegade or completely paragon, that basically giving us a single choice for the entire game. I call foul play.

[Khayness]

How about making a Persuation bar what is used for the Intimidate/Charm checks, it adds your Renegade+Paragon points and uses it as an accumulated value.

So the Paragon/Renegade bar will mostly serve roleplaying purposes, this way you can be a Paragade and you won't miss any dialogue options.

Modifié par Khayness, 24 juin 2011 - 05:26 .

[nitrog100]

I'm happy with the way it is now. Sometimes it got annoying when I was just a hair away from getting a morality option, but overall, I was satisfied.

[Sebby]

The charm/intimidate and paragon/renegade systems need to be abolished altogether. It's freaking nonsense that I wasn't able to able to decide whether or not to recruit Morinth or use the intimidate option with Tali vs Legion because I didn't have enough magic points.

[Savber100]

I like your plan OP.

One of the biggest frustration with ME for me is how I always end up picking the option for the most Paragon points rather than the ACTUAL dialogue option that I would choose.

[Eurhetemec]

I'd love to see them get rid of these systems. They don't make for a better game. Even ME1's system was better than ME2, because you could always pump both in a worst-case scenario. You'd lose combat ability, but not critically.

Whereas in ME2 you have to sometimes pick an option that's not "right" because you need the extra damn points.

ME3 sounds like it might be even worse, though depending on how it functions, it might end up more like ME1, which wouldn't be too awful, though would be annoying.

[HTTP 404]

I like the OPs suggestions to make the dialog better. Kudos to you sir for giving solutions versus just complaining.

the rally the crowd option for Tali's case was by far the most satisfying option when you save Kal Reeger and give Veetor back to the Quarians.  More of these in Me3 please. 

Modifié par HTTP 404, 24 juin 2011 - 08:16 .

[Fixers0]

Agreed, Morality based perssuasion is one of my biggest complaints of the Mass Effect series, i also think that their might be A Moraliry system, but it should be less about collecting, 'blue' and 'red' point and more about actual choices that impact your character.

[Homebound]

paragon/renegade isnt a morality system.
its taking the diplomatic approach or the pragmatic approach to solve the same problem. both get u to where ur going, but which one do u want to take?