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Will we be faced with the decision to raze the Library of Thessia?


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#1
Dean_the_Young

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(Limited knowledge of Historical Metaphors required.)

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned if we're going to Thessia, but if Shepard does it would strike me as an excellent place for one of the more unique Big Decisions of the Mass Effect: just what is the value of a Cultral center?


Not to put too fine a point of it, but culture is actually a rather big deal. In Human history alone, the social and political maps have repeatedly been rewritten with the fall of culture: the loss of knowledge, of history, of identity can't be undstated: when the Library of Alexandria was burned, so too did a pillar of Egyptian identity and knowledge. When the Mongols the contents of the Library of Baghdad into the Dijla River, the did more than turn the river black with the ink of millions of books (millions, remember, at a time there was no printing press): they turned a Global culture center into a relative backwater, even after they left. Even to those with only a sense of history of the past century, the effects of the loss of culture can be telling: compare Warsaw, after being fought over and destroyed in a certain war with tore the heart out of it, to Paris, which was (fortunately) not deliberatly razed to the ground despite orders, it's art and museums and architecture not looted and destroyed. One remains a cultural hum... and the other has never quite recovered.

People can live in a place with or without culture. But the loss of culture can irrevocably change them: oh, it's easy to say 'there are photographs,' or 'there are other books'... but it ignores what was lost, and what isn't where it used to be.




Why do I bring this up? Because Thessia is the heart of Asari space, and the heart of Asari identity and power is Culture. Cultural export and influence is both their primary diplomatic strategy and the basis of their relations with other species. Because Asari political influence is weilded by the Matriarchs, the wise, the experienced, the ones who define culture. Because Asari identity, the enduring Asari pacifism itself, is a product of the culture that creates and sustains it.



As a writer of a 'Big Decision' RPG of a galactic war for survival, how can we pass up a scenario to kick it all over? To the see the Asari changed, forever, as a consequences of what is lost and what was done during the Reaper War?

And all it would take would be an impetus that makes the immediate gains something to consider, something worthwhile. Military consideration. Immediate advantage. The better prospects of immediate survival.

And all at the cost of a Library. A very, very big Library, mind you... but a Library all the same.




Just consider some of the implications it would carry:

-Asari post-war culture: if the Asari survive, will their pacifism survive with them? Their inclination towards compromise? Democracy?

-Asari post-war views of Humanity: What Shepard does reflects on Humanity on a larger scale. Human-Asari ties are already shaped by the Council decision, but think of how they could go further. Are Humans the civilized, cooperative people of the Paragon Council, save the Library? Or are the Barbarians at the Gates, the ones who would make the rivers of Thessia run black? One certainly would allow for post-war Pacifism... and one might spur the Asari into re-militarizing.

-What is the value of Culture? Without it, we are less as a society, but is it all-important? Certainly there have been some, right or wrong, who have argued that had a certain central European state carried out its orders to raze Paris to the ground, that would have been been as severe a war crime as many other atrocities.

Thoughts to Consider.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 juin 2011 - 01:40 .


#2
jamesp81

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In all honesty, in a society with modern information technology, the loss of the physical library wouldn't be as big of a blow as it was for the Egyptians when the library at Alexandria was burned.

As for what choice I would make, it would depend on what would be risked and/or lost by trying to preserve the library. The library is not a thing unto itself; it was created, over time, by the asari people. It's loss would be unfortunate, but the people are more important than the library. Given that modern information systems will have copies of all the writings, I'll choose the people over the library. The loss would be a shame, but this too shall pass, with time.

#3
Dean_the_Young

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There were picture of Warsaw, and the art of Warsaw, but half of cultural destruction is the spread of its surviving aspects elsewhere. There's no real comparison between the cultural weight of Warsaw today and Warsaw before the world. Something doesn't have to be as big a blow to have some very real effects.

That said, I do agree with you on relative value... but 'with time' can take a very, very long while.

#4
Smeelia

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I think it'd be difficult to present it in a way that would make people really "get it".  That being said, that could actually result in a better situation where you might think "bah, it's just a library" then later realise how important it was (although a lot of people would then complain about feeling cheated).

Another problem would be making it Paragon vs Renegade, you know at least one side is probably going to end up complaining.  The easiest solution would probably be to just make it a middle-left or middle-right choice (and assign no points) so there's no clear Paragon/Renegade divide (although that might go against the way the games have worked so far).  It would also be difficult to balance the potential benefits of either side, if lives are involved then saving them will seem like the Paragon choice and saving the library would have to mean a significant loss elsewhere (that can't actually affect win/lose).  Still, having the Asari badly messed up either way might mitigate the problem somewhat.  Perhaps if you save the library their culture is intact but their military and political arms could suffer badly while letting the library be destroyed could result in the loss of the Asari as we know them (well, it'd probably have to mean the Asari becoming something undesireable as well).

I don't think it's likely we'll get a choice like this but it's an interesting idea at least.

By the way, is there actually a reference to a "Library of Thessia" or is it purely a theoretical thing? I think there's mention of something along those lines in the games but I can't remember the details (I could be getting mixed up with the Justicar stuff too).

Modifié par Smeelia, 24 juin 2011 - 02:05 .


#5
Son of Illusive Man

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Dum dums didn't back up their files?

Anyways, it depends at what cost? I have to fight a couple more more enemies? Sure. My teammate might die? No.

#6
Dean_the_Young

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Smeelia wrote...

I think it'd be difficult to present it in a way that would make people really "get it".  That being said, that could actually result in a better situation where you might think "bah, it's just a library" then later realise how important it was (although a lot of people would then complain about feeling cheated).

Another problem would be making it Paragon vs Renegade, you know at least one side is probably going to end up complaining.  The easiest solution would probably be to just make it a middle-left or middle-right choice (and assign no points) so there's no clear Paragon/Renegade divide (although that might go against the way the games have worked so far).  It would also be difficult to balance the potential benefits of either side, if lives are involved then saving them will seem like the Paragon choice and saving the library would have to mean a significant loss elsewhere (that can't actually affect win/lose). Still, having the Asari badly messed up either way might mitigate the problem somewhat.  Perhaps if you save the library their culture is intact but their military and political arms could suffer badly while letting the library be destroyed could result in the loss of the Asari as we know them (well, it'd probably have to mean the Asari becoming something undesireable as well).

I don't think it's likely we'll get a choice like this but it's an interesting idea at least.

I'd see it as a pretty standard Paragon/Renegade delimma myself: Saving the Library would be Paragon (because there are higher things worth fighting for), while destroying it Renegade (expediency despite the social costs). It wouldn't be a situation in which the fate of the Asari ability to fight as a whole is threatened, but rather if it were diminished or not.

A scenario I'd make, for example, would be that the Reaper's ground armies on Thesia have occupied and holed up in the Library even as the Reapers are being driven off. Shepard is in a position to burn the Library (and the indoctrinated Reaper army within), or allow the Asari military to assault through. Destroying the Library is easy: letting the Asari clear through it will not only mean additional Asari casualties, but bog down the Asari forces in diminish what they would be willing to send to Earth*. Either way, the Asari are willing to pay the costs, and will help against the Reapers. The biggest effect is the epilogue endings.

*Assuming the 'strength' of Armies come the liberation of Earth was measured in a point system, the difference might be a (Paragon Council) Asari of strength 7 versus strength 9. Small difference, and in many respects countered by Paragon-leaning choices elsewhere (the Rachni, a Paragon peaceful conclusion of the Geth-Quarian conflict).

By the way, is there actually a reference to a "Library of Thessia" or is it purely a theoretical thing? I think there's mention of something along those lines in the games but I can't remember the details (I could be getting mixed up with the Justicar stuff too).

It's the historical analogy. The only place on Thesia itself we know of is the University of Thesia... but we (they, the writers) can always justify it on the grounds that it's a city-state in and of itself, sort of how like a number of American universities are actually their own towns or cities.

So 'destroying the Library' would be more literally 'destroying the University', the cultural/educational/scientific nexus of Asari space. The Asari would certainly exist as a culture without it, but they would certainly change.

#7
Dean_the_Young

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Son of Illusive Man wrote...

Dum dums didn't back up their files?

Sure they did. But a picture of the Eifel Tower isn't the Eifel Tower: Cultural artifacts are distinct from the copies and recordings.

Anyways, it depends at what cost? I have to fight a couple more more enemies? Sure. My teammate might die? No.

Epilogue consequenes primarily, possibly minor change in the strength of the force to help Earth.

#8
BlueMagitek

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I don't think it's a really good decision; weaken your military arm to save a cultural center? Keep in mind that this isn't an enemy that will just conquer and subjugate you; the Reapers want to continue their purge. It doesn't matter if the Library would survive if everyone is dead.

#9
DarkSeraphym

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd see it as a pretty standard Paragon/Renegade delimma myself: Saving the Library would be Paragon (because there are higher things worth fighting for), while destroying it Renegade (expediency despite the social costs). It wouldn't be a situation in which the fate of the Asari ability to fight as a whole is threatened, but rather if it were diminished or not.

A scenario I'd make, for example, would be that the Reaper's ground armies on Thesia have occupied and holed up in the Library even as the Reapers are being driven off. Shepard is in a position to burn the Library (and the indoctrinated Reaper army within), or allow the Asari military to assault through. Destroying the Library is easy: letting the Asari clear through it will not only mean additional Asari casualties, but bog down the Asari forces in diminish what they would be willing to send to Earth*. Either way, the Asari are willing to pay the costs, and will help against the Reapers. The biggest effect is the epilogue endings.

*Assuming the 'strength' of Armies come the liberation of Earth was measured in a point system, the difference might be a (Paragon Council) Asari of strength 7 versus strength 9. Small difference, and in many respects countered by Paragon-leaning choices elsewhere (the Rachni, a Paragon peaceful conclusion of the Geth-Quarian conflict).


I actually really like this idea. It sounds very similar to the approach that Fable 3 had of choosing between using resources upon defending things that were significant to the people living there or simply destroying/abandoning those objects of significance in order to leave you with more resources for the incoming threat. I'd like to see decisions like this in Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 24 juin 2011 - 02:45 .


#10
Dean_the_Young

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BlueMagitek wrote...

I don't think it's a really good decision; weaken your military arm to save a cultural center? Keep in mind that this isn't an enemy that will just conquer and subjugate you; the Reapers want to continue their purge. It doesn't matter if the Library would survive if everyone is dead.

For the Asari, it would be saving themselves. If Humans die... well, that would be someone else, wouldn't it?

It also comes down to 'what are you fighting for?' There really are people who would, to an extent, put the preservation of a culture over the preservation of some of the people of it. People who think that burning a small library can be almost as bad a crime as killing someone.

It's an illustrative dillima: not necessarily a hard one, for some people, but then that's true of any delimma. For some people, there's an obvious 'right' answer.

#11
BlueMagitek

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Let me rephrase myself then.

Weakening someone's military branch when you're up against an army of machines, one of whom ripped through the defenses of one of the most important places in the galactic system, isn't a good idea to save a cultural center. Don't forget, they should have everything backed up or available in other means.

Unless every Asari over their maiden stage is hunted down and killed I highly doubt their culture is going anywhere.

#12
DarkSeraphym

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Let me rephrase myself then.

Weakening someone's military branch when you're up against an army of machines, one of whom ripped through the defenses of one of the most important places in the galactic system, isn't a good idea to save a cultural center. Don't forget, they should have everything backed up or available in other means.

Unless every Asari over their maiden stage is hunted down and killed I highly doubt their culture is going anywhere.


To be fair, I agree with you 100% but I think there are some who will not. I personally think it is a ridiculous notion to weaken the Alliance military by saving the Council, and that is without prior knowledge that you will stop Sovereign regardless, but many opted to use those resources to preserve them regardless and I don't find replaceable figureheads to be all that important. I don't doubt for a moment that there are some players who would use resources to preserve the Asari culture regardless of what the implications could be upon their ability to fight the Reapers.

Likewise, human history has shown at the very least that the destruction of cultural centers does have a profound effect upon that civilization given the examples that Dean_the_Young has offered. Regardless of whether or not there are Asari alive who will remember that information or if there are copies of that information itself, the destruction of these kinds of relics does have an effect upon the morale of that civilization.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 24 juin 2011 - 03:29 .


#13
ReallyRue

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I think it would be less of an issue if it was save the library/save people. And presumably in a futuristic society, there would be multiple copies of this stuff, spread through various means on the extranet. The original copies may be lost, but the information/whatever wouldn't be completely lost.

#14
Raiil

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Oh man, this would be the rare decision that really left me torn. I agree that no matter how many back ups are made and vids processed- you can't replace the original, and the heavy gravity of history that's attached to original objects.

#15
Dean_the_Young

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ReallyRue wrote...

I think it would be less of an issue if it was save the library/save people. And presumably in a futuristic society, there would be multiple copies of this stuff, spread through various means on the extranet. The original copies may be lost, but the information/whatever wouldn't be completely lost.

But is that how culture works, really? Can you quantify, digitize what is at its heart symbollic?

We have pictures of the Twin Towers: we have building schematics, pictures, blue prints. We could rebuild the entire building. But even if we did, did the fall of the Towers (hardly the only skyscrapers in New York City, let alone the US) change the United States of America?

Could you simply put an identical replica back there, and say 'it's the same thing'?

#16
crimzontearz

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the metaphoreis skewed

we live in a world of infinite data redundancy, the loss of a library, physically, would not really be that much of an issuegiven that the data could most probably be easily recovered especially if the reaper, as vigil suggests, also collect all the knowledge they can find. If the reaper lose I'm sure all their collective data will be harvested including what they learned

#17
BlueMagitek

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...the destruction of these kinds of relics does have an effect upon the morale of that civilization.

I would rather have a demoralized Asari culture than, say, losing the galaxy to the Reapers or taking heavy losses that leaves Asari society / military in shambles or whatever damage the Reapers may incur on the rest of the Galaxy while my forces are tied up on the cultural center.

You are correct; destroying a cultural center can cause a great deal of pain but this enemy is intent on galaxy wide genocide, we need all the military might we can get.

#18
goofyomnivore

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Wow this would be a tough choice for me too. I think if the advantage of letting it be destroyed could be a major turning point in the war/battle, I would let it burn.

I think the Asari would rather us cut off their cultural arm, and save the rest of their body, rather than risk saving their cultural arm at the risk of their whole body. (if that makes any sense).

#19
General User

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In this scenario, I'd blow it up.

The asari need to be taken down a couple notches anyway.

#20
DarkSeraphym

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BlueMagitek wrote...

...the destruction of these kinds of relics does have an effect upon the morale of that civilization.

I would rather have a demoralized Asari culture than, say, losing the galaxy to the Reapers or taking heavy losses that leaves Asari society / military in shambles or whatever damage the Reapers may incur on the rest of the Galaxy while my forces are tied up on the cultural center.

You are correct; destroying a cultural center can cause a great deal of pain but this enemy is intent on galaxy wide genocide, we need all the military might we can get.


You are preaching to the choir my friend. I've dedicated every resource (eliminated some like the Rachni) to stopping the Reapers in my ME playthroughs with the ulterior motive of leaving humanity the supreme race when all is said and done. As Dean_the_Young pointed out earlier, for players like you and I, there is no question about what we would do if this scenario would be offered to us. The library would be destroyed.

However, for more Paragon players (I am assuming you might be a little more aligned to Renegade), this decision could be far more challenging. Is stopping the Reapers and saving humanity really worth the destruction of such a culturally significant object that it would possibly shatter the Asari as we know them to lose it?

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 24 juin 2011 - 04:19 .


#21
DarkSeraphym

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ReallyRue wrote...

I think it would be less of an issue if it was save the library/save people. And presumably in a futuristic society, there would be multiple copies of this stuff, spread through various means on the extranet. The original copies may be lost, but the information/whatever wouldn't be completely lost.


There are also thousands of copies of the United States Declaration of Independence in textbooks, websites, and reproductions. Could you imagine what kind of cultural implications there could be had there been a war and this document were destroyed by an enemy? Could such a culturally significant document ever really be replaced? Probably not, and that is why that document sits in the National Archives under several inches of bulletproof glass.

#22
vader da slayer

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I don't think you guys understand what kind of library we are talking about. This isn't your local public library, this is the kind of library that would be holding things like (if it were human) original works by people like Shakespear (although imo he never existed as people think he did) or the original papers of the Federalist Papers (some documents written back around the time of the founding of the USA) or other such items. Items that aren't there to be refrenced and read but items that are there more for viewing. These kinds of libraries are more museum than a traditional library.

So could you wipe out entire original collections of things that define the Asari culture to not have to fight through something or to make a task a little easier?

Modifié par vader da slayer, 24 juin 2011 - 04:20 .


#23
Dean_the_Young

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BlueMagitek wrote...

...the destruction of these kinds of relics does have an effect upon the morale of that civilization.

I would rather have a demoralized Asari culture than, say, losing the galaxy to the Reapers or taking heavy losses that leaves Asari society / military in shambles or whatever damage the Reapers may incur on the rest of the Galaxy while my forces are tied up on the cultural center.

You are correct; destroying a cultural center can cause a great deal of pain but this enemy is intent on galaxy wide genocide, we need all the military might we can get.

Unless you conclude that Saving Earth Is Absolutely Vital, however, the galactic chances aren't signficantly changed: only the contribution towards the liberation of Earth in particular.

Well, that's  anthe intended diffence anyway: the choice to keep the Library isn't a matter of changing the Asari galactic power, but more of how much they can/are willing to send to help Earth in particular.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 juin 2011 - 04:26 .


#24
Dean_the_Young

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DarkSeraphym wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I think it would be less of an issue if it was save the library/save people. And presumably in a futuristic society, there would be multiple copies of this stuff, spread through various means on the extranet. The original copies may be lost, but the information/whatever wouldn't be completely lost.


There are also thousands of copies of the United States Declaration of Independence in textbooks, websites, and reproductions. Could you imagine what kind of cultural implications there could be had there been a war and this document were destroyed by an enemy? Could such a culturally significant document ever really be replaced? Probably not, and that is why that document sits in the National Archives under several inches of bulletproof glass.

And why it has a multi-million dollar security system to hide it in case of an opproaching disaster.

#25
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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The question of whether or not to sacrifice one's culture and identity for pragmatic reasons is very interesting. I genuienly hope that Bioware does something like this for ME3.