53 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

In this scenario, I'd blow it up.

The asari need to be taken down a couple notches anyway.

A few pegs to what? If preserving this Library meant the Asari culture remains status quo ante (idealistic, pacifist), and destroying it meant driving them towards remilitarization and 'conventional' self-interest, I can think of a lot of lower pegs much worse for the galaxy (and Humanity) than an idealistic Asari culture and a bit of smugness.


Especially in, say, a Human-dominated Council setting, in which case a re-militarized Asari means the largest galactic economy and population moves into more direct opposition to the Humans.

[ReallyRue]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I think it would be less of an issue if it was save the library/save people. And presumably in a futuristic society, there would be multiple copies of this stuff, spread through various means on the extranet. The original copies may be lost, but the information/whatever wouldn't be completely lost.

But is that how culture works, really? Can you quantify, digitize what is at its heart symbollic?

We have pictures of the Twin Towers: we have building schematics, pictures, blue prints. We could rebuild the entire building. But even if we did, did the fall of the Towers (hardly the only skyscrapers in New York City, let alone the US) change the United States of America?

Could you simply put an identical replica back there, and say 'it's the same thing'?

Of course not, but it's not the same as losing something entirely. With an old document for instance, something that's about an important historical event in depth, or an ancient mosaic - it would be a horrible a loss to people's history and identity. But, losing the original is not the same as never having it again. There's still a scrap to be saved. A scrap is better than nothing, if the situation only offers you a choice between saving lives+a scrap and saving no lives+saving it all.

[Dean_the_Young]

On a philosophical level, I'd say that losing the original is losing part of something forever. There is a certain value in uniqueness: anyone can photocopy a picture of a cave painting, but you certainly lose a bit of History if you blow up the cave.

In this case, the weight isn't so much 'losing the information forever', but that aspect of cultural loss, that devastation of originals, and the effects that can have on a people (in this case, the Asari).

To take your own word (if a bit unfairly): if you have a scrap of something survive, do you care about that scrap as much? Does it sustain you in the ways the whole did? Will that scrap continue to provide for you what the original did?

While the phrasing of this topic is a (number of) historical allusion(s), the emphasis on the choice is the value of preserving culture, not on the replaceable recordings of what the writings/pictures were of.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Kick ass question, DtY!  I hope we do see decisions like this several times in the game.

What if the Paragon/Renegade decision isn't to raze the library at all?  What if the Library always gets smashed to pieces during the climax of the battle on Thessia.  The Paragon/Renegade decision is to let a shuttle pod full of vorcha loose on the ruins to slow down any Reaper efforts in the area.  The vorcha, being excellent scavengers, could find a way to live in the ruins of Thessia, potentially even thriving in so much destruction.  When the asari are finally ready to fully reclaim their world, they might find so many vorcha living in the city and the library, that the cost of cleaning the infestation out would be too much for their ruined economy.  Add in a couple matings between asari that were stranded in the wreckage and vorcha who provided for them...  It could be a crazy scene.

Shepard could make choices for a culture that are almost literally worse than death.

[BlueMagitek]

Unless you conclude that Saving Earth Is Absolutely Vital, however, the
galactic chances aren't signficantly changed: only the contribution
towards the liberation of Earth in particular.

Well, that's 
anthe intended diffence anyway: the choice to keep the Library isn't a
matter of changing the Asari galactic power, but more of how much they
can/are willing to send to help Earth in particular.

Unless the Reapers dropped significantly in power while I wasn't looking, you'd be sacrificing at least a fleet (more likely several) to stop a few of them.  And now you're changing the rules; the galactic chances were on the line in your original post (better chance of survival and all). 

However, for more Paragon players (I am assuming you might be a
little more aligned to Renegade), this decision could be far more
challenging. Is stopping the Reapers and saving humanity really worth
the destruction of such a culturally significant object that it would
possibly shatter the Asari as we know them to lose it?

Ha, I'm actually more Paragon than Renegade; I just play as I feel is best.  And some of the Renegade options are kind of dickish. And yes, I'm not sure how anyone can argue that a significant Asari object is worth more than humanity and stopping the Reapers.  It isn't a good

I just don't see the worth in preserving a cultural building if it results in the war effort (against something that has committed genocide an untold number of times) being significantly hampered.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A few pegs to what? If preserving this Library meant the Asari culture remains status quo ante (idealistic, pacifist), and destroying it meant driving them towards remilitarization and 'conventional' self-interest, I can think of a lot of lower pegs much worse for the galaxy (and Humanity) than an idealistic Asari culture and a bit of smugness.

To be fair, the flaws in asari culture run well deeper than a bit of annoyance when dealing with them person to person. Their idealism and smugness have led them to preside over the extermination of entire planets and races and the establishment of a galactic thug-ocracy and racial caste system.

The fate of the UAR always has been, and always will be in the fate of her people. How a people (even one as homogeneous as the asari) will react to a major destructive event like the Reaper War is bound to be is impossible to predict. A more militarized and self-interested asari nation or nations could easily be a boon for the galaxy at large.   


Though, given how the question is framed, I'd be lying if I said I was unbiased.  “Democracy” and “pacifism” aren’t exactly values I hold in high regard. Just to give a sense of how I feel, let me put a little bit of a twist on the question and ask how you would feel if it was not a Great Library (or other such cultural icon) that had to be destroyed/saved, but the Motherhouse of the Justicar Order?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Especially in, say, a Human-dominated Council setting, in which case a re-militarized Asari means the largest galactic economy and population moves into more direct opposition to the Humans.

Kinda like what the turians are doing under the human-led Council? I honestly think the asari would be sensible and justified in doing just that.

[Eurhetemec]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sure they did. But a picture of the Eifel Tower isn't the Eifel Tower: Cultural artifacts are distinct from the copies and recordings.

That's a crap analogy.

The Eiffel tower is an object which has cultural value do to it's presence and positioning. As you say, if it was destroyed, a copy or recording would not be the same (just like the Tokyo Tower isn't the Eiffel tower).

The Dead Sea Scrolls (for example), have very limited value due to their presence and positioning, but huge value due to their information. If they were vapourized by the Reapers, virtually all their value WOULD be retained by copies and recordings.

So I think the problem is that you're using a Library as your example. If the Library at Alexandria had had scans and copies of every book, no-one would give two sods that it burned down. But it didn't. That's the problem. Information is information, and the value of "originals" when it comes to information is relatively low. It'd be sad that they were destroyed, but not a big deal.

Places, though. Objects, paintings, art, then the original does matter more. The more possible the object is to replicate, though, the less inherent value the original has, I would suggest.

So having all the Asari museums and art galleries and giant pieces of sculpture several miles long destroyed - that would be a big deal.

Having a library where everything was backed-up destroyed? Not so much. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

A difficult situation indeed, but I'll require a more detailed scenario to know what kind of decision I'd make.

Generally, I put more value in knowledge, culture and books than I do lives. Lives can be easily replaced within a few generation. A broken culture, and destroyed books can be permanent. So if we were talking about a human library, the choice would have been obvious to me unless the material damage far outweighs the value of library (which would need to be complete or near complete annihilation to dissuade me).

But since we are talking about Asari, I'd have to think in terms of post-Reaper human dominance, which is what I am aiming for. On one hand, no hegemony becomes so without cultural power to back it up. A chicken and egg dynamic that I won't get into, but the fact is that culture is at the heart of empires and hegemonies. If humanity wants to become a culture powerhouse, then it seems that wiping out its main competitor which had the advantage of thousands of years to accumulate knowledge, would be the most efficient thing to do.

But it's not so simple. Like the OP pointed out, the Asari might end up militarizing and the galaxy might see humanity as upstarts (more than usual). Since my version of the galaxy is a human led council, the diplomatic context has to be managed carefully. Also, the value of Asari knowledge makes it so that it's painful to me to destroy it regardless of the scenario, instead of learning from it. Asari lives are secondary in importance to me.

So the ideal situation for me would be to save the Library, at the cost of so many Asari that their civilization is either broken or would be weakened for a few generations. Make a treaty with the Asari that allows Humanity to translate all of the books, article..etc and transfer them to a new Human library (in exchange for economic and military assistance). And slowly start to overthrow Asari Cultural dominance, in almost the same way as Arabic culture supplanted Hellenistic (and to a lesser extent, Persian) culture while learning a great deal from it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 juin 2011 - 05:43 .

[Dean_the_Young]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Unless the Reapers dropped significantly in power while I wasn't looking, you'd be sacrificing at least a fleet (more likely several) to stop a few of them. 

Sure. But where the Asari sacrifice a fleet may or may not matter. In so much that fighting Reapers is equivalent for galactic and Asari survival wherever it happens, whether the Alliance gets wiped out or not is less important to people who aren't, well, Alliance.

And now you're changing the rules; the galactic chances were on the line in your original post (better chance of survival and all). 

As I said, the intent that was supposed to be that the effect of the choice in the short-term is the Asari contribution towards Earth. If that did not come across in the original post, then I will be the first to admit error on my own part.

I just don't see the worth in preserving a cultural building if it results in the war effort (against something that has committed genocide an untold number of times) being significantly hampered.

Many people do: I've gotten into similar arguments with people on other choices over similar grounds.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eurhetemec wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sure they did. But a picture of the Eifel Tower isn't the Eifel Tower: Cultural artifacts are distinct from the copies and recordings.

That's a crap analogy.

The Eiffel tower is an object which has cultural value do to it's presence and positioning. As you say, if it was destroyed, a copy or recording would not be the same (just like the Tokyo Tower isn't the Eiffel tower).

The Dead Sea Scrolls (for example), have very limited value due to their presence and positioning, but huge value due to their information. If they were vapourized by the Reapers, virtually all their value WOULD be retained by copies and recordings.

So I think the problem is that you're using a Library as your example. If the Library at Alexandria had had scans and copies of every book, no-one would give two sods that it burned down. But it didn't. That's the problem. Information is information, and the value of "originals" when it comes to information is relatively low. It'd be sad that they were destroyed, but not a big deal.

Places, though. Objects, paintings, art, then the original does matter more. The more possible the object is to replicate, though, the less inherent value the original has, I would suggest.

So having all the Asari museums and art galleries and giant pieces of sculpture several miles long destroyed - that would be a big deal.

Having a library where everything was backed-up destroyed? Not so much. 

Besides the Library (itself a placehold term used for historical analogy), I'll point out that vader da slayer got my intent right on: this Library (again, not necessarily literally: 'the University of Thesia' works just as well) is a repository for countless priceless one-of-a-kind works

vader da slayer wrote...

I don't think you guys understand
what kind of library we are talking about. This isn't your local public
library, this is the kind of library that would be holding things like
(if it were human) original works by people like Shakespear (although
imo he never existed as people think he did) or the original papers of
the Federalist Papers (some documents written back around the time of
the founding of the USA) or other such items. Items that aren't there to
be refrenced and read but items that are there more for viewing. These
kinds of libraries are more museum than a traditional library.

So
could you wipe out entire original collections of things that define
the Asari culture to not have to fight through something or to make a
task a little easier?

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A few pegs to what? If preserving this Library meant the Asari culture remains status quo ante (idealistic, pacifist), and destroying it meant driving them towards remilitarization and 'conventional' self-interest, I can think of a lot of lower pegs much worse for the galaxy (and Humanity) than an idealistic Asari culture and a bit of smugness.

To be fair, the flaws in asari culture run well deeper than a bit of annoyance when dealing with them person to person. Their idealism and smugness have led them to preside over the extermination of entire planets and races and the establishment of a galactic thug-ocracy and racial caste system.

The fate of the UAR always has been, and always will be in the fate of her people. How a people (even one as homogeneous as the asari) will react to a major destructive event like the Reaper War is bound to be is impossible to predict. A more militarized and self-interested asari nation or nations could easily be a boon for the galaxy at large.  

Fair enough: but it's an interesting delimma to ponder, wouldn't you think? And in a galaxy at war, prioritizing culture becomes a relevant task.

Though, given how the question is framed, I'd be lying if I said I was unbiased.  “Democracy” and “pacifism” aren’t exactly values I hold in high regard. Just to give a sense of how I feel, let me put a little bit of a twist on the question and ask how you would feel if it was not a Great Library (or other such cultural icon) that had to be destroyed/saved, but the Motherhouse of the Justicar Order?

Ooh, harsh. My view on deontological ethics are not the most favorable.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Especially in, say, a Human-dominated Council setting, in which case a re-militarized Asari means the largest galactic economy and population moves into more direct opposition to the Humans.

Kinda like what the turians are doing under the human-led Council? I honestly think the asari would be sensible and justified in doing just that.

Exactly like the Turians... only with more people and more economy and more allies to throw around. And if you are the sort of person who places value on a Human-dominant system... then keeping the Asari non-sensible and more futilely accepting of the situation might be your preference.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Exactly like the Turians... only with more people and more economy and more allies to throw around. And if you are the sort of person who places value on a Human-dominant system... then keeping the Asari non-sensible and more futilely accepting of the situation might be your preference.

Thinking of people in the Council’s “race=nation” terms is such a disgusting worldview that it makes me feel like I need to wash my brain out with soap. I try to avoid it whenever possible. Please forgive any confusion this may cause.

Anyway, I can’t help but think that the Alliance’s relationship with any people or nation on the “other side of the table” is as much dependent on the Alliance’s behavior, decisions, and policies as the other chap’s (or chapette’s). Take the growing Hierarchy/Alliance rivalry in the “dead-Council” MEU. I got the distinct impression that much of the animosity between humans and turians had much more to do with the Alliance’s actions subsequent to the Battle of the Citadel than any decision made during it.  

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Fair enough: but it's an interesting delimma to ponder, wouldn't you think? And in a galaxy at war, prioritizing culture becomes a relevant task.

A thought along these lines occurs to me: As it would be the player (ie Shepard) who ultimately decides the fate of the Library, I wonder if Shepard would be cruel enough to remind the asari that if they had listened when they were first warned about the Reapers, all their relics would be safely tucked away.

Probably not…
Probably.

-EDIT-
I will say this though, in another context, say preserving cultural artifacts simply for the sake of their… culturalness, a certain amount of risk and sacrifice is acceptable. Especially if the lives being risked and sacrificed are the lives of soldiers because, honestly, defending a society and that society’s values (including symbols thereof) is a huge part of why soldiers exist, at least in good countries. That willingness, even eagerness to sacrifice for the greater whole is a huge part of what makes the military such a noble profession.  
-END EDIT-

Modifié par General User, 24 juin 2011 - 07:49 .

[Eurhetemec]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Besides the Library (itself a placehold term used for historical analogy), I'll point out that vader da slayer got my intent right on: this Library (again, not necessarily literally: 'the University of Thesia' works just as well) is a repository for countless priceless one-of-a-kind works

University is an equally poor analogy, but I see what you mean - museums, essentially.

I think making it about museums or a university makes it impersonal and an easy decision, though - it's too "theoretical", too cold.

I would suggest making it about a single, specific, un-copy-able object of massive importance would make the whole thing more engaging.

The Asari aren't ideal for this, though, note - the Salarians would be better. They're short-lived, but obsessed with ancestry and continuation, so probably completely obsessed with museums and cultural artifacts and so on. Asari, who live a thousand years, will outlive tons of items that would outlive a human, will see their own buildings fall due to age,  and so on. I can't see them obsessing over "cultural artifacts" in the same way, especially as due to the laws of physics, no object is likely to be preserved in a meaningful, let alone usable, form for more than about ten thousand years. Not only would the Asari be used to making copies, they'd be used to making copies within their own lifespan. I mean, look at books - a book might last eighty years, read by three generations of a family. For an Asari, a book still lasts the same time, but it'll fall apart relatively sooner, compared to their lifespan. I mean, stuff we have to save in museums, which as lasted since the middle-ages, which requires climate-control - that's the same stuff that belong to you mother, as it were, age-wise.

So I just don't buy them as being very upset by this. The Salarians, though, they'd freak. Look at how freaked out that little guy on Illium was about losing his family tree.

[BlueMagitek]

Sure. But where the Asari
sacrifice a fleet may or may not matter. In so much that fighting
Reapers is equivalent for galactic and Asari survival wherever it happens, whether the Alliance gets wiped out or not is less important to people who aren't, well, Alliance.

Yes, the Asari fleet is almost certainly going to be destroyed at some point, but when, where and how effective they are can change on the place of the battle. 

You seem to think that I'm completely pro-human, I'm more concerned with defeating the Reapers than ensuring dominance of one species over another.  While losing the Library would have some long term consequences, if we throw our forces at it those long term consequences might not ever come to fruition.  Because everyone would be dead or enslaved.

Fair enough: but it's an
interesting delimma to ponder, wouldn't you think? And in a galaxy at
war, prioritizing culture becomes a relevant task.

It isn't right to treat this like a normal war.  By all means, please, protect the cultural treasures that you can; move statues and works of art offworld and bury them.  But this isn't a war of conquest where you can have another chance.  This is a war of survival. 

[Dean_the_Young]

BTW, pressing the BBCode box makes copy-pastes much smoother.
[quote]
[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Sure. But where the Asari
sacrifice a fleet may or may not matter. In so much that fighting
Reapers is equivalent for galactic and Asari survival wherever it happens, whether the Alliance gets wiped out or not is less important to people who aren't, well, Alliance.

Yes, the Asari fleet is almost certainly going to be destroyed at some point, but when, where and how effective they are can change on the place of the battle. 

You seem to think that I'm completely pro-human, I'm more concerned with defeating the Reapers than ensuring dominance of one species over another.  While losing the Library would have some long term consequences, if we throw our forces at it those long term consequences might not ever come to fruition.  Because everyone would be dead or enslaved. [/quote]Believe me when I say I am not assuming anything about your politics, only trying to underline that it isn't the Asari strategic ability being lost, only their inclination towards fighting at Earth. Which, as I said, is only as vital to victory against the Reapers as you think liberating Earth will be: Asari ships who don't fight at Earth now simply are available to fight the Reapers elsewhere later.

If you think that victory at Earth NOW (as in, the relevant timeframe for the Liberation) is a requisite for galactic survival, then yes: Asari holding back anything is huge. If you don't, however, it isn't.
[quote]
Fair enough: but it's an
interesting delimma to ponder, wouldn't you think? And in a galaxy at
war, prioritizing culture becomes a relevant task.

It isn't right to treat this like a normal war.  By all means, please, protect the cultural treasures that you can; move statues and works of art offworld and bury them.  But this isn't a war of conquest where you can have another chance.  This is a war of survival. 
[/quote]All wars of survival are also intrensically about what you will survive as. Those who fight for identity but not survival may die: those who fight for survival but not identity often simply get steamrolled and dominated/assimilated/conquered/wiped out by the less-than-immediate threat that comes by next. Immediate threats weigh more, but do not necessarily negate, later threats: even immediate threats of extinction.

[Phaedon]

If you have a society where ethnic union is based on monuments, then you have went somewhere wrong. You won't last much either way.

Culture and knowledge are passed on through the people. To lose a library is to lose a reminder of culture, to lose a part of your people is to lose both your culture and literally, a part of your civilization.

[CroGamer002]

Well we could always put all that stuff on Extranet.

[Barquiel]

I suppose that depends on the cost.

some cruisers? "Save the Library of Thessia!"
the whole asari fleet? not really...

I'd probably ask Liara too - she knows the asari better than Shep and can estimate the consequences.

edit: I think we'll visit Illium again, not Thessia.

Modifié par Barquiel, 25 juin 2011 - 06:51 .

[Raycer X]

I would say that the Library of Thessia would be worth saving if it had coutnless one-of-a-kind pieces of "I don't know what." If it was just a regular library of large size, I would at least assume that the Asari are smart enough to have back up copies of their works.

[dildeinstein]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

(Limited knowledge of Historical Metaphors required.)

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned if we're going to Thessia, but if Shepard does it would strike me as an excellent place for one of the more unique Big Decisions of the Mass Effect: just what is the value of a Cultral center?


Not to put too fine a point of it, but culture is actually a rather big deal. In Human history alone, the social and political maps have repeatedly been rewritten with the fall of culture: the loss of knowledge, of history, of identity can't be undstated: when the Library of Alexandria was burned, so too did a pillar of Egyptian identity and knowledge. When the Mongols the contents of the Library of Baghdad into the Dijla River, the did more than turn the river black with the ink of millions of books (millions, remember, at a time there was no printing press): they turned a Global culture center into a relative backwater, even after they left. Even to those with only a sense of history of the past century, the effects of the loss of culture can be telling: compare Warsaw, after being fought over and destroyed in a certain war with tore the heart out of it, to Paris, which was (fortunately) not deliberatly razed to the ground despite orders, it's art and museums and architecture not looted and destroyed. One remains a cultural hum... and the other has never quite recovered.

People can live in a place with or without culture. But the loss of culture can irrevocably change them: oh, it's easy to say 'there are photographs,' or 'there are other books'... but it ignores what was lost, and what isn't where it used to be.




Why do I bring this up? Because Thessia is the heart of Asari space, and the heart of Asari identity and power is Culture. Cultural export and influence is both their primary diplomatic strategy and the basis of their relations with other species. Because Asari political influence is weilded by the Matriarchs, the wise, the experienced, the ones who define culture. Because Asari identity, the enduring Asari pacifism itself, is a product of the culture that creates and sustains it.



As a writer of a 'Big Decision' RPG of a galactic war for survival, how can we pass up a scenario to kick it all over? To the see the Asari changed, forever, as a consequences of what is lost and what was done during the Reaper War?

And all it would take would be an impetus that makes the immediate gains something to consider, something worthwhile. Military consideration. Immediate advantage. The better prospects of immediate survival.

And all at the cost of a Library. A very, very big Library, mind you... but a Library all the same.




Just consider some of the implications it would carry:

-Asari post-war culture: if the Asari survive, will their pacifism survive with them? Their inclination towards compromise? Democracy?

-Asari post-war views of Humanity: What Shepard does reflects on Humanity on a larger scale. Human-Asari ties are already shaped by the Council decision, but think of how they could go further. Are Humans the civilized, cooperative people of the Paragon Council, save the Library? Or are the Barbarians at the Gates, the ones who would make the rivers of Thessia run black? One certainly would allow for post-war Pacifism... and one might spur the Asari into re-militarizing.

-What is the value of Culture? Without it, we are less as a society, but is it all-important? Certainly there have been some, right or wrong, who have argued that had a certain central European state carried out its orders to raze Paris to the ground, that would have been been as severe a war crime as many other atrocities.

Thoughts to Consider.

I hope so.  And I hope our actions and choices have weight.  Did you ever see the original ME spot?  I hope every mission has impact not only to an endgame epilogue but to every mission after that.

 I.E.  If I prepare all of Council Space for all out war and lead them against the reapers we will have taken so long that humanitiy suffers.  Seriously suffers.

If we sacrifice the Turians to save Earth, Humans prosper but are reviled like Bataarians. 

General User wrote...
In this scenario, I'd blow it up. 
The asari need to be taken down a couple notches anyway.

And this renegade choice should have serious impact - frighten other races into submission or cause humanity to be so reviled that they do not help us.

If we allowed the original council to die, the new council should be less willing to help.  If we saved the rachni they should be ready to help us.  If I saved CPT Kirrahe and the 3rd Infiltration Regiment STG my job on Sur'Kesh should be much easier.  If I saved the Collector base, there should be serious blowback.

Good Post OP

[lovgreno]

The asari are a suprisingly adaptive race considering their long lives. And unlike humanity the council races has colonised other worlds for centuries so they are not so dependant on their home planets. So yeah I think the asari will adapt and prosper once again, probably stay as the top dog in the galaxy as well.

[General User]

dildeinstein wrote...

General User wrote...
In this scenario, I'd blow it up. 
The asari need to be taken down a couple notches anyway.

And this renegade choice should have serious impact - frighten other races into submission or cause humanity to be so reviled that they do not help us.

I forget who it was who wrote it (I wanna say Stephen Ambrose) but “the most dangerous times for an alliance is as it nears defeat and as it nears victory.” Because of this truism, I really see this decision as having much more of an impact on the post war galaxy than on the course of the war itself.

The thing is asari culture has been a major driving force behind some pretty horrific stuff. I have such a low opinion of asari culture in general that I have a hard time seeing it as being worth preserving in its current state. As I see it, the asari becoming more militaristic, less democratic, and less willing to compromise, etc. is by no means necessarily a bad thing for humanity, the Alliance, or anyone else in the galaxy (including the asari themselves).

Say… the asari become more militarized only they use their military to suppress pirates and batarians and the like, making the galaxy a safer place for everyone.

Honestly I think the asari “blaming” Shepard is rather unlikely, Shep did everything but run naked through the streets of Serrice yelling “The Reapers are coming!” to try and warn these people. The thing about the truth is, no matter how hard a person might try to deny it, the truth never quite goes away. And the truth is: given the amount of warning the asari had, they would only have themselves (and the Council) to blame.

Or… the loss of their relics leads to a species wide cultural identity crisis for the asari and the UAR (the Alliance’s biggest rival) disintegrates into squabling factions.
Or… the loss of so much of their heritage leads the asari to adopt a “let’s embrace the new” mentality, kinda like Matriarch Aethyta's ideas.
Or… the turians admire Shepard’s resolve and seek closer relations and military cooperation with the Alliance.
Or… any of 1001 other, scenarios and permutations.

Modifié par General User, 25 juin 2011 - 08:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

The asari are a suprisingly adaptive race considering their long lives. And unlike humanity the council races has colonised other worlds for centuries so they are not so dependant on their home planets. So yeah I think the asari will adapt and prosper once again, probably stay as the top dog in the galaxy as well.

Oh, no doubt that they will survive and adapt. And I never wanted to imply they would simply enter some sort of cultural grave.

But as a catalyst for change... what will they adapt into?


You don't need to destroy a society to push it onto radically different trajectories. Before 9-11, the US occupying two middle eastern countries would have been laughable. Now, the US has been at war for a decade. Just think about how things might have gone otherwise.

[dildeinstein]

General User wrote...

dildeinstein wrote...

General User wrote...
In this scenario, I'd blow it up. 
The asari need to be taken down a couple notches anyway.

And this renegade choice should have serious impact - frighten other races into submission or cause humanity to be so reviled that they do not help us.

I forget who it was who wrote it (I wanna say Stephen Ambrose) but “the most dangerous times for an alliance is as it nears defeat and as it nears victory.” Because of this truism, I really see this decision as having much more of an impact on the post war galaxy than on the course of the war itself.

The thing is asari culture has been a major driving force behind some pretty horrific stuff. I have such a low opinion of asari culture in general that I have a hard time seeing it as being worth preserving in its current state. As I see it, the asari becoming more militaristic, less democratic, and less willing to compromise, etc. is by no means necessarily a bad thing for humanity, the Alliance, or anyone else in the galaxy (including the asari themselves).

Say… the asari become more militarized only they use their military to suppress pirates and batarians and the like, making the galaxy a safer place for everyone.

Honestly I think the asari “blaming” Shepard is rather unlikely, Shep did everything but run naked through the streets of Serrice yelling “The Reapers are coming!” to try and warn these people. The thing about the truth is, no matter how hard a person might try to deny it, the truth never quite goes away. And the truth is: given the amount of warning the asari had, they would only have themselves (and the Council) to blame.

Or… the loss of their relics leads to a species wide cultural identity crisis for the asari and the UAR (the Alliance’s biggest rival) disintegrates into squabling factions.
Or… the loss of so much of their heritage leads the asari to adopt a “let’s embrace the new” mentality, kinda like Matriarch Aethyta's ideas.
Or… the turians admire Shepard’s resolve and seek closer relations and military cooperation with the Alliance.
Or… any of 1001 other, scenarios and permutations.

A decision like this probably would be more of an eqilogue statement but I'd like for ME3 to have no easy decisions.  

When you say

General User wrote...  The thing is asari culture has been a major driving force behind some pretty horrific stuff. I have such a low opinion of asari culture in general that I have a hard time seeing it as being worth preserving in its current state.

 What are you basing that on?

 Say… the asari become more militarized only they use their military to suppress pirates and batarians and the like, making the galaxy a safer place for everyone

 Maelon tried to use this exact line of logic in Mordin's loyalty quest...speculation not based on fact or evidence.

 The Asari were the founders of the Citadel Council and created a stable galactic government with seven other Species in the Galaxy.  They have been striving towards stability.  The Citadel Council ended the First Contact War ensuring that humanity could be brought into the galactic fold.  They look at the bigger picture and promote the strengths of other species while ensuring that each is moderated for the larger community.   After a Reaper invasion what would be more valuable than reconstruction and stability?

Modifié par dildeinstein, 25 juin 2011 - 09:22 .