65 réponses à ce sujet

[Devilsway]

Spyndel wrote...

Shapeshifting is something that they're looking at officially. At last word I believe I read they were looking at making the transformation more instantaneous to increase the flexibility. They did say though that the shapeshifter was never going to match the AW in terms of melee combat/tanking, so without that, I don't know how much appeal, outside of roleplaying, there could ever be for the spec.

Unless the special abilities they gain in each of the forms is so appealing it becomes worth giving up casting potential, I just dont see it. As it stands right now, those abilities are not, and probably wouldnt be with any simple stat boost. It would take a significant rework.

Instant cast might help it, Maybe additional constitution while in bear form(or has some sort of magic mutiplier for the bonus). It could be situationally hot. Hope it all works out.

[Trefecka]

OP:

1.) Force Field - having enemies ignore FF targets would go a long way to fixing this..tho even then however the taunt+FF strat would still work since I find this combo is best as an initial mob gathering tool so you can catch them all in an AOE CC.



2.) Mana Clash - this spell essentially makes Mana Cleanse worthless. One possible fix I think would be to make clash single target...sure it would rape one mage but it wouldn't be an IWIN button against mage multiple mages.



3.) ....not sure many others are really that OP. Most other spells/combos that I would consider OP are heavily reliant on FF to get them started.



UP - in no particular order:



1.) Chain Lightning - long cast time + no spell power scaling makes this tier 4 spell horribly unimpressive.



2.) Heal - sure its amazing at the beginning, but later in the game it really doesn't heal enough. Sure i understand how hard it is to balance (if it healed tanks well, it would heal mages/rogues REALLY well) but I still find it underwhelimg late game.



3.) Rejuvenate/Mass Rejuvenate - I don't find that it makes any visible difference...the amount of regeneration doesn't seem to be worth the cost.



4.) Death Magic/Siphon - I don't find either of these all that useful, as they don't add nearly enough health/mana.



5.) Weakness/Disorient - Neither does enough IMO...sure they are tier 1 but still they don't seem to make much of a difference.



6.) Drain life/mana - Again its decent at the beginning, but I think it could benefit from much better scaling

[egervari]

Bluesmith wrote...

OP
--------
+ Shimmering Shield (discussed enough already)
+ Cone of Cone (high damage, easily chained CC)
+ AOEs castable through walls (self-explanatory)
+ Crushing Prison (essentially an instant kill; incredibly annoying when used against you)
+ Paralyze Explosion and its ilk (duration)
+ Momentum
+ Mana Clash, situationally
+ Force Field

UP
----------
+ Most 2H talents, particularly Critical Strike and Shattering Blows. Possible exceptions to this include Mighty Blow, Indomintable, and 2H Sweep (although 2H sweep needs its attack penalty removed). 2Hers in general are horrible.
+ Most DW talents for rogues. Possible exceptions to this include Whirlwind and DW Sweep. Autoattack backstabs tend to do better, at least for the stam cost (i.e., autoattacks are *free*).
+ Most activated shield attack abilities (Overpower, Assault, etc.). They just seem to miss all the time.
+ Deathblow
+ Shapeshifting in its entirety
+ Fourth line creation spells (spellwhisp+). 
+ Mage (arcane) tree. It's not horrible but it doesn't compete with other trees at all.

This is the defacto list right here. It has basically everything we've discussing in my re-balancing thread. Great job.

[Pellegrin]

I wanted to get the initial version of the balance mod out tonight and I'm doing that. I added what was easiest and seemed most important primarily based on this thread. More will come based on how these initially go over with more play testing. Review changes and download here:

http://social.bioware.com/project/822/

Make comments in the project discussion forum or in this thread.

[Pellegrin]

Download link is up.

Modifié par Pellegrin, 21 novembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[Korva]

I'd like to mention parts of the second and third line of sword & board talents. We have three anti-missile talents, two of which have penalties which require other talents to remove. Sorry, but that is pretty boring and lackluster, especially in comparison to spells. It's like the devs ran out of ideas for "tanks".

[Pellegrin]

I'm going to refrain from drastically changing talents unless it's necessary. Such is the case with Death Blow because the script involving death blow is in a header file, which can't be altered. I haven't found specific spell combos in the scripting. The link from ABI_Base doesn't provide much help.



Looking forward to comments on the changes in the project.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Bluesmith wrote...

OP
--------
+ Shimmering Shield (discussed enough already)
+ Cone of Cone (high damage, easily chained CC)
+ AOEs castable through walls (self-explanatory)
+ Crushing Prison (essentially an instant kill; incredibly annoying when used against you)
+ Paralyze Explosion and its ilk (duration)
+ Momentum
+ Mana Clash, situationally
+ Force Field

UP
----------
+ Most 2H talents, particularly Critical Strike and Shattering Blows. Possible exceptions to this include Mighty Blow, Indomintable, and 2H Sweep (although 2H sweep needs its attack penalty removed). 2Hers in general are horrible.
+ Most DW talents for rogues. Possible exceptions to this include Whirlwind and DW Sweep. Autoattack backstabs tend to do better, at least for the stam cost (i.e., autoattacks are *free*).
+ Most activated shield attack abilities (Overpower, Assault, etc.). They just seem to miss all the time.
+ Deathblow
+ Shapeshifting in its entirety
+ Fourth line creation spells (spellwhisp+). 
+ Mage (arcane) tree. It's not horrible but it doesn't compete with other trees at all.

You forgot Winters Grasp out damaging pretty much any other primal spell + freezing.  I also don't get what you mean by Dual Wielding talents on Rogues.  Dual Striking is excellent with poisons/runes, Riposte is amazing with Coup De Grace, Cripple is alright and Punisher is awesome.  Dual sweep is pretty good too, Momentum is amazing.  The only slightly underwhelming spells are Flurry and Whirlwind, but I don't have much experience using those on a main character. (Zevran had them but he was hardly well built)

I've also found Shield Bash/ Shield Pummel/ Overpower/Assault to work just fine, occasionally they'll miss one hit but that's to be expected. 

EDIT:

Cool mod Pelligrim, I'll prolly give it a try soon.  Most of the changes are sensible although I must admit the health potion nerf may make Nightmare unnecessarily hard without a healer.  Albeit a healer should be a requirement but my current save doesn't have one yet XD

Modifié par ITSSEXYTIME, 22 novembre 2009 - 05:38 .

[asaiasai]

I do not really know if this is considered OP but i have come to rely on a blizzard and tempest stack with a glyph of paralysis for good measure and there is not much except the elite or boss mobs that can stand up after that. This works real well for reducing the numbers of mobs you need to deal with.



Asai

[AstralFire]

Holy Smite is weak; halving its cost would be sufficient, however.

[metatrans]

there are two talents that need fixes to prevent exploits. the type of number tweaking balances i think the OP is intending aren't that important imo. its the exploit level stuff that needs resolution most badly. not sure its so simple to fix though.



Force Field needs to cause all mobs to ignore whoever is in the force field for the duration of the spell. beating uselessly on a force field while they stand in a firestorm is stupid.



Cone of Cold needs to be resistable, the freeze component anyway. this should probably be a physical resist check (similar to Petrify) or maybe just a % based failure check based on level (similar to Winter's Grasp). as it is now CoC always freezes any mob no matter what. even freezes orange bosses and frost immune mobs. this is also lame. the freeze should be able to fail just like every other crowd control effect in the game.

[Nodrak]

CoC does not freeze 100%, if you think it does, you must be playing a low difficulty.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Simply "capping" force field might make it useful without being to good. If it drops all agro, on a tank its almost useless since on harder difficulties you now have the potential for mega beat down.



As long as it gives you time to get a couple heals off or set up your party its fine. Just at the moment its a tad excessive.

[Spartansfan8888]

Scyles wrote...

If there is some infinite grenade recipie, I think *this* should be looked at.

For acid flasks there is... you can get unlimited corrupter agents and flasks from camp, and ruck in the deep roads has unlimited lifestones for sale

[Pellegrin]

metatrans wrote...

there are two talents that need fixes to prevent exploits. the type of number tweaking balances i think the OP is intending aren't that important imo. its the exploit level stuff that needs resolution most badly. not sure its so simple to fix though.

Force Field needs to cause all mobs to ignore whoever is in the force field for the duration of the spell. beating uselessly on a force field while they stand in a firestorm is stupid.

Cone of Cold needs to be resistable, the freeze component anyway. this should probably be a physical resist check (similar to Petrify) or maybe just a % based failure check based on level (similar to Winter's Grasp). as it is now CoC always freezes any mob no matter what. even freezes orange bosses and frost immune mobs. this is also lame. the freeze should be able to fail just like every other crowd control effect in the game.

My mod changes force field so that mobs will ignore the target. That's been one of the most commonly suggested fixes and I think it's the best. It does have the side effect of turning a target enemy invisible for the duration. The only issue is that it requires a scripting change which means you run the risk of bad Plot GUIDs. Keep backups and you should be fine until Bioware, me, or someone else finds a permanent fix.

Cone of Cold cooldown is doubled in the mod which I feel is providing an adequate fixed based on how often elite mobs seem to be resisting.

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Scyles wrote...

If there is some infinite grenade recipie, I think *this* should be looked at.

For acid flasks there is... you can get unlimited corrupter agents and flasks from camp, and ruck in the deep roads has unlimited lifestones for sale

I don't use grenades in my game. Do these infinite grenades cause a problem? Does a longer cooldown make sense like what I've done with health poultices and lyrium potions?

Modifié par Pellegrin, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:08 .

[Rythuria]

Grenades can be thrown while stealthed and it doesn't remove you from stealth(unless you aimed at yourself and hit yourself with the grenade too)

I'd suggest just having it knock you out of stealth after using a 'nade.  They also don't share the same cooldown so you could chuck a frost one, then acid, then fire, then shock, etc.  Giving them the same cooldown might be good too

Modifié par Rythuria, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:56 .

[metatrans]

Nodrak wrote...

CoC does not freeze 100%, if you think it does, you must be playing a low difficulty.

i've been playing on Hard and Nightmare difficulty actually. 

there's no instance of the freeze being fully resisted. its duration can be cut to a very short time (particularly true of orange mobs on nightmare) but they always freeze for at least a brief period of time. 

try it yourself though, you cannot find a single instance of a target being in the AoE and the word "Resist" popping up over their head in the same way that they can resist Paralyze or Crushing Prison or Horror. There's only one circumstance this can happen at all, its the full negation "spell resist" stat that some mobs have such as Templars. but short of that scenario nothing can resist CoC freeze by passing a physical or mental resist check. that check does not exist for the spell. 

[Nodrak]

metatrans wrote...

Nodrak wrote...

CoC does not freeze 100%, if you think it does, you must be playing a low difficulty.

i've been playing on Hard and Nightmare difficulty actually. 

there's no instance of the freeze being fully resisted. its duration can be cut to a very short time (particularly true of orange mobs on nightmare) but they always freeze for at least a brief period of time. 

try it yourself though, you cannot find a single instance of a target being in the AoE and the word "Resist" popping up over their head in the same way that they can resist Paralyze or Crushing Prison or Horror. There's only one circumstance this can happen at all, its the full negation "spell resist" stat that some mobs have such as Templars. but short of that scenario nothing can resist CoC freeze by passing a physical or mental resist check. that check does not exist for the spell. 

At 4:03 you can see a white cold vulnerable mob on hard mode resist a CoC.  Earlier in the vid it looks like a soldier resisted it too, but it seems like if a stun and a freeze happen at the same time, odd stuff happens.

Modifié par Nodrak, 24 novembre 2009 - 12:19 .

[silencedhawk]

-Fireball seems to me to the the most overpowered spell.



Quick cooldown, instant cast, High damage, and a CC.

I found that even on hard I was putting groups of mobs down to below 50% and ticking.. and knocked down.. main issue was casually murdering party members.



Remove the knockdown, or make the cast time like chain lightning.







-Crushing Prison, OP, I agree, but its high cooldown and high resist rate (on hard and nightmare) make it less overpowered for the player.. only overpowered when used ON you.. since it almost always kills you.. but kinda your own fault for not having a dispel in the party.





I found the t4 healing spec the aura of healing to be a touch overpowered, since it delivers so much raw AOE healing for hardly any mana, and works thro cc, stun, knockdown.

2x mages with this running is.. sexy







I found all the shield tallents to be total GASH! why bother!

A slight boost to def, and some arrow deflection, for gimp damage and poor threat

you can't use them at the same time.



+def pointless vs boss's since you hardly ever dodge VS boss attack value.

and trash is... trash.. Mages have a spell to deflect arrows.

Having to split into Dex, to use abilitys also gimps your AP and threat, and spare points for constitution.. vs a 2h warrior that can go pure strength / con and simply out HP and physical resist the tank class.



I found 2 hander abilitys to be a bit mad, Indomidable Immune to both stun and knockdown with added damage, the shield warrior only gets knockdown and totally gimped damage for it.



think all others have been mentioned enough.

[silencedhawk]

I have managed to play with most of the spells and abilitys in tooldet, but Can't find an easy way to make chain lightning scale, any ideas?

[Chalenheri]

I don't like the Idea of tweaking the spells. Way to complicated. How about:



Restrict Lyrium Potion usage and your Mana-Pool restriction should be effective enough

Some fights would be way more difficult, if you could not run back to another room.

Yello and Orange Mobs could have higher spell resist and need to clean their aggro table from time to time.

[Pellegrin]

I am curious about crushing prison. Is the feeling that it's OP vs. computer or OP vs. you? Because it being powerful makes dispel more useful which I feel is important.

[Walina]

Please update the : Heal and heal group.
Exemple : at level 14, I heal 50 HP.

I have 36 points in magic and 45 points in Will.

Please update those spells because it became useless to use them (mostly heal) because potion heal better than you.

[Bluesmith]

Crushing Prison is OP in both cases. The problem is less pronounced with respect to the "enemy uses on human" scenairo due to dispel, although even then it still skirts the outermost boundaries of balance. It is, however, way out of control when used against enemies and contributes - along with other CC spells and AOE spam - to the excessive utility and DPS of the mage class. Drop a CP on some white - hell, yellow - mob and fire a few instant-cast spells into it and you're easily out damaging 2Hers *all while completely and (functionally) irrevocably paralyzing the target for what amounts to the entire duration of the fight*.

I play a modified version of nightmare difficulty with an *increase* in default enemy resistances over the baseline. Despite this, crushing prison is still a OHKO 50-75% of the time (basically, all of those times that it hits) on every single white mob in the game. It can shave 50% off of a yellow mob by itself *while preventing any actions whatsoever by that mob* when it hits - and more often than not it does. On a baseline nightmare, you can cast with impunity and only rarely suffer resists. Mobs will not dispel it, and only orange mobs can consistently escape its brokenness. Unlike forcefield, the mob is still susceptible to damage. Unlike CC in most games, damage does not break or risk breaking Crushing Prison's death grip.

Edit: feel free to apply the above reasoning to cone-of-cold/winter's grasp rotations.

Modifié par Bluesmith, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:27 .

[DrUcross]

The problem is many people here play on normal, and they don't understand what is overpowered or underpowered as they don't just don't know how to use certain spells effectively (indeed, there is little need).



For example: heal is one of the most powerful spells in the game when the game gets hard, most people don't realize that until they play without it.



You need to focus your balance around skilled players in hard settings. Moderate players will improve naturally simply by playing and understanding.