17 réponses à ce sujet

[mian52]

Hello everyone, just looking for some opinions. I've beat the game on normal with a Archery Warrior (first playthrough, the char isn't perfect) and I'm about a third of the way done with a Sword/Dagger Rogue on hard. Haven't had my main fall once yet on Hard. Both of these characters are Elves (Dalish Warrior and City Rogue).

My main question is this, does anyone else find constitution to be a largely pointless stat? The only character I've ever put points was my Archery Warrior, and I found these to be a huge waste.

The extra 5hp/point seems kinda low, compared to gains of other stats.

So the question, anyone else just ignore con?

[Discobird]

I used to pump it on my tanks, but I might start raising dex instead since defense tanking looks pretty viable (and fun!).



I'd be more likely to raise Constitution if it improved mental resistance as well as physical.

[Suron]

I put a few points in it..but typically I pump it up only on my "tank"

[T0rin3]

I think it's a mostly pointless stat... anyone who needs it can just use equipment to increase it, and armor/defense is a better means of improving a tank than more HP is.



The main exception is Shale, who doesnt have the option of equipping stuff that would help augment his armor/defense. (much)

[Spyndel]

Blood Mage.

[PhlaagoRexor]

shale will get about the same armor as alistair (43) once you hit level 20 and get the best crystals.. but only if she uses her defense mode, i find she is much more useful as a damagedealer though.. i might experiment with her defensive abilities and hopefully stack high lightning resists to let her pull enemies to her and have my main or morrigan drop a storm of the century on her (without resorting to forcefield =) i did stop raising shales con after getting to 50 (with 18dex, 32str to let her pick all talents and use all crystals if your approval rating with her is maxed)





but yes.. con is somewhat useless except for the tank, some things can really mess you up if you dont have enough hp or armor on the tank (ogres alpha picking you up and punching you a few times for example)

[Sean0883]

I really wish con score was a modifier rather than a flat 5, so that the more you put in the more health you receive.

At 40 con:

5*40 = 200 end game health

This one is done per level and added to the total:
2 + (.3 * con) = 308 end game health
It doesn't have to be .3, but that was just the first number I came to that I liked the results. Here is a per point breakdown of how many you would have.  I should note I rounded the values down.  So if the result of your con multiplier was .9, you got 0 extra.  That is what you are seeing in levels 1-4.

1 = 2 health this point and 2 total gained so far
2 = 2 health this point and 4 total gained so far
3 = 2 health this point and 6 total gained so far
4 = 3 health this point and 9 total gained so far
5 = 3 health this point and 12 total gained so far
6 = 3 health this point and 15 total gained so far
7 = 4 health this point and 19 total gained so far
8 = 4 health this point and 23 total gained so far
9 = 4 health this point and 27 total gained so far
10 = 5 health this point and 32 total gained so far
11 = 5 health this point and 37 total gained so far
12 = 5 health this point and 42 total gained so far
13 = 5 health this point and 47 total gained so far
14 = 6 health this point and 53 total gained so far
15 = 6 health this point and 59 total gained so far
16 = 6 health this point and 65 total gained so far
17 = 7 health this point and 72 total gained so far
18 = 7 health this point and 79 total gained so far
19 = 7 health this point and 86 total gained so far
20 = 8 health this point and 94 total gained so far
21 = 8 health this point and 102 total gained so far
22 = 8 health this point and 110 total gained so far
23 = 8 health this point and 118 total gained so far
24 = 9 health this point and 127 total gained so far
25 = 9 health this point and 136 total gained so far
26 = 9 health this point and 145 total gained so far
27 = 10 health this point and 155 total gained so far
28 = 10 health this point and 165 total gained so far
29 = 10 health this point and 175 total gained so far
30 = 11 health this point and 186 total gained so far
31 = 11 health this point and 197 total gained so far
32 = 11 health this point and 208 total gained so far
33 = 11 health this point and 219 total gained so far
34 = 12 health this point and 231 total gained so far
35 = 12 health this point and 243 total gained so far
36 = 12 health this point and 255 total gained so far
37 = 13 health this point and 268 total gained so far
38 = 13 health this point and 281 total gained so far
39 = 13 health this point and 294 total gained so far
40 = 14 health this point and 308 total gained so far

With the math I have though, health gained would actually be less until you get to 22 con. Which any tank would hit early anyway.

Con at 1: health changed = 2 health unchanged = 5
Con at 2: health changed = 4 health unchanged = 10
Con at 3: health changed = 6 health unchanged = 15
Con at 4: health changed = 9 health unchanged = 20
Con at 5: health changed = 12 health unchanged = 25
Con at 6: health changed = 15 health unchanged = 30
Con at 7: health changed = 19 health unchanged = 35
Con at 8: health changed = 23 health unchanged = 40
Con at 9: health changed = 27 health unchanged = 45
Con at 10: health changed = 32 health unchanged = 50
Con at 11: health changed = 37 health unchanged = 55
Con at 12: health changed = 42 health unchanged = 60
Con at 13: health changed = 47 health unchanged = 65
Con at 14: health changed = 53 health unchanged = 70
Con at 15: health changed = 59 health unchanged = 75
Con at 16: health changed = 65 health unchanged = 80
Con at 17: health changed = 72 health unchanged = 85
Con at 18: health changed = 79 health unchanged = 90
Con at 19: health changed = 86 health unchanged = 95
Con at 20: health changed = 94 health unchanged = 100
Con at 21: health changed = 102 health unchanged = 105
Con at 22: health changed = 110 health unchanged = 110
Con at 23: health changed = 118 health unchanged = 115
Con at 24: health changed = 127 health unchanged = 120
Con at 25: health changed = 136 health unchanged = 125
Con at 26: health changed = 145 health unchanged = 130
Con at 27: health changed = 155 health unchanged = 135
Con at 28: health changed = 165 health unchanged = 140
Con at 29: health changed = 175 health unchanged = 145
Con at 30: health changed = 186 health unchanged = 150
Con at 31: health changed = 197 health unchanged = 155
Con at 32: health changed = 208 health unchanged = 160
Con at 33: health changed = 219 health unchanged = 165
Con at 34: health changed = 231 health unchanged = 170
Con at 35: health changed = 243 health unchanged = 175
Con at 36: health changed = 255 health unchanged = 180
Con at 37: health changed = 268 health unchanged = 185
Con at 38: health changed = 281 health unchanged = 190
Con at 39: health changed = 294 health unchanged = 195
Con at 40: health changed = 308 health unchanged = 200

Modifié par Sean0883, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:10 .

[Mork_ba]

I like it a lot as a stat. For my tank after item requirements I divide all stats between dex and con(usually I alternate levels to allocate 3 points to one and then 3 to the other)... I think it's a very useful stat, tbh, though the game's viable without it. Extra life never hurt anybody, anyway, and if you get a series of knockbacks and disables, it'll buy you time to land a heal. Not using any on my mages or rogue as I stack magic on the mages (and some will here and there for some sustained skills) and the rogue has too many stat requirements to spare points into con. Still, when in doubt, pump con

[Zachriel]

Blood Mage

No. Or rather, only if you plan on casting with Blood Magic active all the time. It is quite pointless to do so, so you don't need the extra con.



See, activating blood magic makes you use health instead of mana for your spell pool, so you'd think that high con would be really helpful for a blood mage. Activating blood magic also enables all of your blood magic spells. In blood magic mode, the only way to heal yourself effectively is with Blood Sacrifice.



When playing my mage (who was a blood mage), I found that by the time Blood Wound and Blood Control had worn off, either the fight was already over or the enemies were so close to dead that it didn't matter. Thus, keeping blood magic mode active for longer than it took to cast my blood magic spells was pointless. What I ended up doing 9 time out of 10 was activating blood magic, casting Blood Wound and Blood Control, then deactivating blood magic and casting spells normally.



There was no reason to put a single point into con, as casting only 2 spells with BM active didn't hurt me much and my magic rating as so high that all I needed was 1 lesser health poultice to get almost back to full.



Now, for a Aracane Warrior/Blood Mage build con may be more beneficial, but I haven't played that combo yet so I can't offer and meaningful insight there. In my opinion, con is pointless for a pure mage blood mage build.



The only reasonable argument I can think of taking high con for such a build is that it takes a little bit of time to activate Blood Magic, and in prolonged fights you don't want to be wasting time turning it on and off. I didn't have any difficulty with this, so I don't consider it a very strong argument. If there's any other reason keep BM active constantly, by all means let me know.

[Dr. Scarabus]

Suron wrote...

I put a few points in it..but typically I pump it up only on my "tank"

Same. It's not necessary but it makes things a lot easier. My S&B warrior with the BD armor was practically unkillable. Ser Cautherine was the only one he had trouble tanking, and I passed that fight up only because I didn't feel like going through a couple dozen lyrium and healing potions and doing a 15 minute grindfest.

[Spyndel]

Zachriel wrote...

Blood Mage

No. Or rather, only if you plan on casting with Blood Magic active all the time. It is quite pointless to do so, so you don't need the extra con.

Yes.

Mana as Blood Mage is for running all the sustained toggles you'd care to run, as these always come off your mana pool, regardless of whether blood magic is on.  You cast offensively from health. You can heal from Blood Sacrifice, or turn off Blood Magic if your healing needs are greater.  Usually, nobody is left standing by the time your health is down to half.

Or you can just take Arcane Warrior as well, and never worry about healing because nobody can hurt you.

[DragoonKain3]

Arcane Warrior's Shimmering Shield is not working as intended. I for one don't like using obvious exploits, but I'm not going to stop anyone else from doing so. One shouldn't bring such bugs to the discussion though.





With that said, CON is still not worth it for the BM. You still have enough mana to cast all your spells. I mean, if you've still have half your health when the battle ends, you would've done the exact same thing but with mana instead.



And if you're keeping sustains up even before battle, you're doing it wrong. The fact that vast majority costs you nothing means that it should only ever turned on once you expended your mana, so you can 'double up' on it.



Not that CON is useless mind you, its just every point on CON could've been spent on MAG instead, which improves spellcasting, spell checks, and pot effectiveness. Using blood magic only for the blood spells and mana on the rest means that you don't risk unnecessary deaths, especially when all healing but Sacrifice is cut by a huge amount.





As for tanks, I'd rather make a DEX tank rather than a CON tank. Nullifies anything that requires a hit roll, which makes vast majority of monsters harmless. Increases dagger damage as well, allowing you to keep some semblance of DPS, and makes that tank a lethal archer for the times when you have rooted the enemy.

[Spyndel]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Arcane Warrior's Shimmering Shield is not working as intended. I for one don't like using obvious exploits, but I'm not going to stop anyone else from doing so. One shouldn't bring such bugs to the discussion though.

Assuming you're responding to me, I don't recall uttering the phrase  "Shimmering Shield" in this thread.  Even without SS, AW is more durable than any Warrior by virtue of the many other sustainables they run. And SS is only an exploit if you run it without mana (as you would be if you engaged in the cheesy behavior of burning all your mana THEN turning on all your toggles, as you suggest).   Simply turning it on is not.

DragoonKain3 wrote...
And if you're keeping sustains up even before battle, you're doing it wrong. The fact that vast majority costs you nothing means that it should only ever turned on once you expended your mana, so you can 'double up' on it. .

   This defies practicality, and is ironically cheesy considering you denounced the use of another exploit.  Call it the rules if you want , but theres no way activating an arsenal of toggles when your character is empty of the ability to cast spells is within the "spirit" of the character concept.

Furthermore, the value of toggles comes from keeping them sustained througout a battle, not when the battle is more than half over after you've expended your mana wad nuking.  Is there any point to turning on Miasma or flaming weapons when your party is just picking off stragglers and the bulk of the enemy force has been killed?  This is of course ignorning the absolute tedium of having to activate 5-7 toggles in the middle of every battle instead of actively attacking.

Arcane Warriors who are going to be meleeing (and theres very little point to taking more than a single talent in the AW chain if you're not) are not going to be served by walking into an ambush and having to raise the buffet of toggles that makes them effective.

DragoonKain3 wrote...
Not that CON is useless mind you, its just every point on CON could've been spent on MAG instead

Except you wouldnt have done that, you'd have spent it on Willpower in order to run the same amount of sustainables (at the point where running them would actually matter), and still have any sort of reasonable casting potential.  The CON Blood Mage simply takes what would have been spent on the Blue Bar and put it into the Red Bar instead.

Mages are powerful no matter what you do, and a traditionally built Blood Mage that emphasies Mana is perfectly potent, But so is a CON blood mage who can be perma -toggled and still cast with a ton of Hit points, especially when combined with an AW who is highly resistant to non-self inflicted damage.  


I agree than CON is the most dispenable stat in the game for many class builds, I was just pointing out where it can be used to good effect.

Modifié par Spyndel, 21 novembre 2009 - 02:23 .

[Bluesmith]

I've been through nightmare without spending more than 2-3 points on CON for my tank (ultimately unnecessary) and 0 points on any other characters. Like the +5Stam/WIL for melee characters, the +5HP/CON conversion rate is just a little too low for my tastes, especially late game. Armor and defense (and thus STR and DEX) are much, much more useful tanking stats.

[DragoonKain3]

Assuming you're responding to me, I don't recall uttering the phrase "Shimmering Shield" in this thread.

You said before that "Or you can just take Arcane Warrior as well, and never worry about healing because nobody can hurt you." Arcane Warrior is just a mage in plate (and armor isn't as good as most make it out to be especially at higher diffuclty levels through damage scaling), so it's only through Shimmering Shield that would allow the phrase 'nobody can hurt you' to be true.

I mean sure, AW gives the mage more survivability, but only through SS can they be invulnerable to hits.

Even without SS, AW is more durable than any Warrior by virtue of the many other sustainables they run.

Dex tanks can outtank Con tanks for vast majority of situations. Arcane Warrior w/out Shimmering Shield exploit are just Con tanks with less hp but with +12.25 armor max via Rock Armor, if we're only talking about durability to incoming hits.

And SS is only an exploit if you run it without mana (as you would be if you engaged in the cheesy behavior of burning all your mana THEN turning on all your toggles, as you suggest).

Some sustains should turn off when you run out of mana, and these are the ones that impose mana drain. Over at toolset wiki they say...

"Some [sustained] abilities shut down when the user reaches 0 mana/stamina. Very powerful abilities (such as Momentum) have an associated stamina/mana drain effect to limit their use to a short or medium period of time. Creative item / buff use can be used to increase the length such an ability can be sustained."

This should include Shimmering Shield since it drains mana, but it does not turn off once you hit zero mana, so its an exploit. A pretty bad one at that, since SS means almost invulnerablility to everything, and with the exploit you can have this on indefinitely.

Majority of sustains, however, do not drain mana. Using those after buring through mana is working as intended and fair game, as far as I'm concerned.

Call it the rules if you want , but theres no way activating an arsenal of toggles when your character is empty of the ability to cast spells is within the "spirit" of the character concept.

From datoolset wiki...

"They [sustained abilities] do not have any activation cost, encouraging tactical use of buffs.
...
Unlike in games like Baldur's Gate, the system in DA: Origins is designed to encourage tactical use of buffs over strategical. We wanted to put an emphasis on the player making smart choices during an encounter vs. the player guessing which buffs might be useful ahead of time or having to employ save-die-reload to find out."

As such, since the devs want you turn buffs IN combat, (ie. tactical use) they punish those who keep them up outside of combat via upkeep, and reward those who use them within combat by allowing them to use them even when they don't have much or any mana at all (see the no activation cost comment).

So as I said before, turning on sustains after you've expended your spells is fair game to alleviate upkeep is fair game. In fact, that's exactly what the devs want you to do.

Except you wouldnt have done that, you'd have spent it on Willpower in order to run the same amount of sustainables (at the point where running them would actually matter), and still have any sort of reasonable casting potential.

Most of sustainable spells are situational. Again, from the above, the devs actually want you to use them tactically, meaning activating it in battle as situations demands it, rather than it being it already up before. As such, you really don't need that much willpower at all.

Let's look at those that don't drain mana (as those do are automatically tactical, being you can't sustain them forever)...

Arcane Shield/Rock Armor - does not help your party at all if the caster is not being attacked. Leaving them on when the enemy is focused on the tank means its just wasted fatigue/upkeep.

Flaming/Frost weapons - only works with melee. It being active before you enter melee range means again wasted upkeep, since you can sling a spell or two before melee ensues. Not to mention some monsters are immune to one element or the other.

Telekinetic weapons - only works on enemies with armor > than your weapons AP. Even at ranged it has reduced effectiveness, since range has one of the highest AP values in the game

Spell wisp - one of the few that is worth the upkeep cost, since its only 30. It increasing the 'front load' of your spells comes in handy, as the 5% increase in power would always pay for the 5% fatigue. That said, that 5% increase would have almost no difference for non-boss battles, its only those lengthy battles where that 5% comes up

Spell Shield - easy enough, since its pretty obvious when you're up against mages

death syphon/magic - certainly not worth the heavy upkeep, especially when you don't need mana/health, and especially when there's no corpses nearby.

Miasma - another one of the few that's worth the upkeep cost, despite it costing 60. Relatively big AoE plus 10 attack/defense reduction over at range means its good offensively and deffensively. 

[Spyndel]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Assuming you're responding to me, I don't recall uttering the phrase "Shimmering Shield" in this thread.

You said before that "Or you can just take Arcane Warrior as well, and never worry about healing because nobody can hurt you." Arcane Warrior is just a mage in plate (and armor isn't as good as most make it out to be especially at higher diffuclty levels through damage scaling), so it's only through Shimmering Shield that would allow the phrase 'nobody can hurt you' to be true.

I mean sure, AW gives the mage more survivability, but only through SS can they be invulnerable to hits. 

Even without SS, which is definitely what puts the AW over the top, they are running around with 40+ Armor, which is not insigificant, Indirect defense through Miasma, and the phasic evasion granted  by  tier 4 AW.  They are easily tougher than any traditional tank in the game.  Against a Min Maxed Dex character designed around not being hit, I couldnt hazzard a guess, but in that case their potent control/healing abilities easily make them competitive, if not far and away superior.

DragoonKain3 wrote...

And SS is only an exploit if you run it without mana (as you would be if you engaged in the cheesy behavior of burning all your mana THEN turning on all your toggles, as you suggest).

Some sustains should turn off when you run out of mana, and these are the ones that impose mana drain. Over at toolset wiki they say...

"Some [sustained] abilities shut down when the user reaches 0 mana/stamina. Very powerful abilities (such as Momentum) have an associated stamina/mana drain effect to limit their use to a short or medium period of time. Creative item / buff use can be used to increase the length such an ability can be sustained."

This should include Shimmering Shield since it drains mana, but it does not turn off once you hit zero mana, so its an exploit. A pretty bad one at that, since SS means almost invulnerablility to everything, and with the exploit you can have this on indefinitely.

Majority of sustains, however, do not drain mana. Using those after buring through mana is working as intended and fair game, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, you have summed up in 3 papargraphs what we were already both aware of, and the reason I said it was an exploit only if you run it without mana.  Turning it on and running it until you bottom out mana is  working as intended.

This is pointless.  We disagree.  Im getting on with my life.

[DragoonKain3]

Just note that dex tanks are practically immune to hit rolls.



Due to this, a dex tank can easily outtank a con tank. And considering an AW is just a con tank with a bit more armor/evasion but with less hp, I seriously challenge the notion that AW " are easily tougher than any traditional tank in the game", since that is not the case at all.

[Zachriel]

I seriously challenge the notion that AW " are easily tougher than any traditional tank in the game", since that is not the case at all.

Well, that kind of depends on what your definition of toughness is. If you just mean the ability to avoid getting hit, then yes a dex tank is better. But look at the bigger picture. An AW is more than "just a con tank with a bit more armor/evasion." An AW is also a mage. They don't just have a bit more armor/evasion. They also potentially have nukes, crowd control, healing, debuffs, and some spells that can complete nuetralize enemy mages.



It would be difficult for a AW running a ton of sustainables to cast anything, unless they either had a ton of willpower or were also a BM and could use their HP pool for casting. That's why in my first post in this thread I stated that a high con might be beneficial for an AW/BM combo, but since I haven't yet played such a combo myself I'm basing this on theory alone.