241 réponses à ce sujet

[DCarter]

atheelogos wrote...

DCarter wrote...

VegasVance wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I am increasingly wondering if the attack on Earth will take on a "Pearl Harbor" type flavor.

Consider that carriers aren't considered by many to be serious warships. The US admiralty felt the same way before WW2.

Consider that the Alliance apparently parked a large fleet in orbit of Earth. Just like the US parked the bulk of its fleet in Pearl Harbor.

Consider that the Alliance, as of ME3, has 8 dreadnoughts. Just as the US had 8 battleships parked in Pearl Harbor on Dec 7 1941. The Earth fleet gets decimated in the opening Reaper attack, just as the US fleet was mostly destroyed by the Japanese surprise attack. It's possible the Alliance's carriers are not at Earth and survive the opening attack, just as US carriers were not present for Pearl Harbor at the outset of WW2.

^This, plus the "Sleeping Giant" reference to the Alliance in ME1

Also even "if" the Quarians and Geth get along, the war is already here, and that isn't when you want to start building your fleets.

Sharp spot. When you add that all up it seems like a pretty strong hint.

We have no idea of the timescale of ME3. I suspect it could be several years, it supposedly took several centuries to finish off the protheans so i'm sure they couldn't simultaenously kill off the production capabilities of all the majour players in one strike. Once the enorminity of the reaper is fully realised i'm sure serviving races will convert to a full war economy and step up production massively. Not to mention the accelerated R&D times normally ascociated with large scale warfare and the fleets that finally confront the repaers could be raically larger and more advanced than what exists beforehand. 

Dude your missing the point. The Reapers have dealt with direct attacks for hudreds of millions of years. Our technology cannot stand to theirs in a straight fight. Doesn't matter how many ships we have. There must be another way.

"i'm sure they couldn't simultaenously kill off the production capabilities of all the majour players in one strike" Sure they can. All they really have to do is take the Citadel and shutdown the relay network.

They can't shut down the relay network because they rely on it themselves to travel the galaxy. I agree we wont win a straight up fight without finding a weakness to exploit. However at the same time to avoid any kind of final confrontation with the reapers (a la war of the worlds) would be a majour cop out and huge dissapointment. 
 

[VegasVance]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Are we shown the Migrant Fleet is "old and rusty" or are we told by the Quarians that this is so?

What we are told - is that non-Quarians are almost never allowed within close range of the Migrant Fleet. This is the huge issue with Cerberus trying to gain the access codes to the Migrant Fleet. Little is known by the other races.

We also know that the Quarians designed the Geth and are known as the best engineers the universe can provide (though calibration seems to fall in the hands of the Turians, or maybe just Garrus). They're also the only race that is capable of sustaining a mobile population - which suggests some pretty significant tech that other races might not have available. While these aren't military - it could hint at possible military applications we're not aware of.

Lastly - we don't know the true size of the Migrant Fleet. The Codex even mentions that several ships split from the fleet only to rejoin them later. While I would imagine that the bulk of remaining warships would remain with the Fleet - that isn't necessarily so.
 

They've been in exile for 300 years, and in all that time they've;

1. Never figured out an appropriate way to retake Rannoch.
2. Been unable to settle or colonize any other planet. 
3. Sustain viable numbers for the expansion of their race.  17 million?  That is only double the size of Mexico City current day.  Sound big until you realize the total Allied soldier deaths in World War was 16 million.  

[billywaffles]

I don't think you will be able to stop the reapers with firepower.

[Zaxares]

Simple answer: No. As people have pointed out, while most of the quarian ships are equipped with defensive weapons and technology, they're also mostly retrofitted civilian vehicles. It's the equivalent of getting a flatbed truck and bolting down an heavy machine gun in the back and calling it a "mobile gun platform". They're simply not up to the standards of modern military warships.

The turians have a very powerful spacefleet, but it's also worthwhile noting that despite the presence of several turian cruisers AND the Destiny Ascension defending the Citadel, Sovereign and a bunch of geth frigates were able to easily destroy all of them. (Sovereign's even shown plowing right through a turian cruiser without any visible signs of damage!) When the Alliance's 5th Fleet shows up, Sovereign's still able to take a sustained beating from them for at least several minutes without critical damage. (And it's up for debate as to whether the 5th Fleet could have actually defeated Sovereign at all if Shepard hadn't managed to kill Sarenhusk and quite possibly severely damaging Sovereign in the process.)

That suggests to me that the larger Reapers can easily take on entire FLEETS with a good chance of victory. And there's likely to be several hundred, if not thousands, of these larger Reapers in the invasion force, if the ME3 trailers are anything to go by. Sure, we've got stuff like the Thanix Cannon now, but the Normandy was engaging the Collector Ship (which appears to be much more fragile than a true Reaper considering it was taking damage from GARDIAN defense cannons on Horizon) at relatively close range. In a true space battle, the Reapers would likely open up with long-range dreadnought main gun fire to wipe out an approaching fleet before they got close enough to use the Thanix Cannons.

[Sidney]

billywaffles wrote...

I don't think you will be able to stop the reapers with firepower.

This is true and what we are all holding on breath on is that we don't get some goofy Independence Day type "solution" to the problem.

[Admoniter]

Without a doubt the Reapers would faceroll just about every fleet, Quarians especially.

[GnusmasTHX]

No single fleet, or combination of fleets is a match for the Reapers on open combat.

ALL the fleets put together can, at best, adopt a guerrilla warfare stance. Which is what is most likely going to happen in ME3.

Every Reaper at the end of ME2 was dreadnought-class. Every non-Reaper ship aside from the DA at the end of ME1 was a cruiser.

Reading the codex you'd know that "dozens" is a lot in terms of dreadnoughts for any Council race, and the Reapers themselves number over a hundred.

[Nashiktal]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Why do people assume the migrant fleet is full of fighters? They're 300 years old and falling apart Tali even says so. Any way no, the reapers would decimate them. Did you see the fleet behind Harbinger? That was bigger than anything we've seen yet and those are all as strong as Sovereign, presumably.

Sovereign didn't exactly participate much in the combat in the battle fo the citadel. The geth fleet took most of the brunt of actual combat while Sovereign just speeded along into the citadel and hid under the arms that closed behind it.

Why are people ignoring this fact when commenting ont he battle of the citadel? The heretics were the ones that did most of the killing and dying. Sovereign didn't do any actuall battle (aside ramming through a ship) untill Shepard opened up the arms again, and even then it was still just acting like a sitting duck taking hits to the shields only throwing out an ocasional beam.

Looking at a video on youtube about the battle, I can only see 3 confirmed kills by Sovereign. 1 by ramming, 2 by beaming after the arms open again. Otherwise Sovereign just sat there and took the shots "like a man" most of the battle.

The heretics did most of the actual damage to citadel/alliance fleet in the battle.

That same reaper you are dissing also decimated the Alliance fleet while CRIPPLED. That reaper could not move from that tower, and could only fire where its tentacles could point. It also absorbed the fire of the entire Alliance fleet without slowing. 

Now imagine that reaper unshackled. The geth bore the brunt of the citadel attack, but that does not mean sovvy is a pushover.

In fact, I bet one reaper free in space could wipe out any fleet in the known galaxy. They can make manuevers that would shear the normandy in half (a very manueverable ship) in ATMOSPHERE, it has more than enough speed to back up said movement, has the firepower to take down cruisers in one shot... and can fire from multiple tentacles.

Now that Thanix cannon is an untested variable, but how widespread is that tech?

[atheelogos]

DCarter wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

DCarter wrote...

VegasVance wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I am increasingly wondering if the attack on Earth will take on a "Pearl Harbor" type flavor.

Consider that carriers aren't considered by many to be serious warships. The US admiralty felt the same way before WW2.

Consider that the Alliance apparently parked a large fleet in orbit of Earth. Just like the US parked the bulk of its fleet in Pearl Harbor.

Consider that the Alliance, as of ME3, has 8 dreadnoughts. Just as the US had 8 battleships parked in Pearl Harbor on Dec 7 1941. The Earth fleet gets decimated in the opening Reaper attack, just as the US fleet was mostly destroyed by the Japanese surprise attack. It's possible the Alliance's carriers are not at Earth and survive the opening attack, just as US carriers were not present for Pearl Harbor at the outset of WW2.

^This, plus the "Sleeping Giant" reference to the Alliance in ME1

Also even "if" the Quarians and Geth get along, the war is already here, and that isn't when you want to start building your fleets.

Sharp spot. When you add that all up it seems like a pretty strong hint.

We have no idea of the timescale of ME3. I suspect it could be several years, it supposedly took several centuries to finish off the protheans so i'm sure they couldn't simultaenously kill off the production capabilities of all the majour players in one strike. Once the enorminity of the reaper is fully realised i'm sure serviving races will convert to a full war economy and step up production massively. Not to mention the accelerated R&D times normally ascociated with large scale warfare and the fleets that finally confront the repaers could be raically larger and more advanced than what exists beforehand. 

Dude your missing the point. The Reapers have dealt with direct attacks for hudreds of millions of years. Our technology cannot stand to theirs in a straight fight. Doesn't matter how many ships we have. There must be another way.

"i'm sure they couldn't simultaenously kill off the production capabilities of all the majour players in one strike" Sure they can. All they really have to do is take the Citadel and shutdown the relay network.

They can't shut down the relay network because they rely on it themselves to travel the galaxy.
 

Sure they can. They did it before they can do it again. Go back and play ME1 and listen to Vigil. He's the one who says that.

[Naughty Bear]

The Reapers would destroy the Turians! Don't even bother with the Quarians, they would be descimated so quickly and violently it could be classed rape.

All you need to do is cough and you could take out majority of the Quarians.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 26 juin 2011 - 02:27 .

[Mister Mida]

Quarians: most of their fleet consists of non-military ships, and those that are, are just modified for military use. Add to that, newer ships are just castaways from other races and some of their ships are over three centuries old.
Turians: they probably have a more significant fighting force, but Sovereign could just bull rush through a turian cruiser/dreadnought.

I'm not seeing a problem for the Reapers. They practically own the turians' and quarians' asses.

[Naughty Bear]

The Quarians struggle to keep their ships running and trying to not starve. The Quarians really have no place in the galaxy at all. They make the Geth, have real low immune systems, no home planet, barely keep their ships running and can not fight properly.

They pretty much helped the Reapers by making the Geth, us Humans have so much more worth and were practically a virus spreading, won't be long until a genophage is dropped onto us.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 26 juin 2011 - 02:38 .

[VegasVance]

Naughty Bear wrote...
They pretty much helped the Reapers by making the Geth, us Humans have so much more worth and were practically a virus spreading, won't be long until a genophage is dropped onto us.

You do know the Reapers are coming to Dr.Mario us to doom right?

[SalsaDMA]

Nashiktal wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Why do people assume the migrant fleet is full of fighters? They're 300 years old and falling apart Tali even says so. Any way no, the reapers would decimate them. Did you see the fleet behind Harbinger? That was bigger than anything we've seen yet and those are all as strong as Sovereign, presumably.

Sovereign didn't exactly participate much in the combat in the battle fo the citadel. The geth fleet took most of the brunt of actual combat while Sovereign just speeded along into the citadel and hid under the arms that closed behind it.

Why are people ignoring this fact when commenting ont he battle of the citadel? The heretics were the ones that did most of the killing and dying. Sovereign didn't do any actuall battle (aside ramming through a ship) untill Shepard opened up the arms again, and even then it was still just acting like a sitting duck taking hits to the shields only throwing out an ocasional beam.

Looking at a video on youtube about the battle, I can only see 3 confirmed kills by Sovereign. 1 by ramming, 2 by beaming after the arms open again. Otherwise Sovereign just sat there and took the shots "like a man" most of the battle.

The heretics did most of the actual damage to citadel/alliance fleet in the battle.

That same reaper you are dissing also decimated the Alliance fleet while CRIPPLED. That reaper could not move from that tower, and could only fire where its tentacles could point. It also absorbed the fire of the entire Alliance fleet without slowing. 

Now imagine that reaper unshackled. The geth bore the brunt of the citadel attack, but that does not mean sovvy is a pushover.

In fact, I bet one reaper free in space could wipe out any fleet in the known galaxy. They can make manuevers that would shear the normandy in half (a very manueverable ship) in ATMOSPHERE, it has more than enough speed to back up said movement, has the firepower to take down cruisers in one shot... and can fire from multiple tentacles.

Now that Thanix cannon is an untested variable, but how widespread is that tech?

It blasted 2, TWO ships before it died.

How you can twist 2 ships destroyed into the alliance fleet being DECIMATED by it is beyond me.

From what we are seeing, the reapers have powerfull shields, weak-arse armor (a single recon frigate plowed Sovereign a new one once the shield was down) and powerfull but few in numbers  and slow firing beam attack (as in we only ever see a single beam being fired, and not exactly machinegun style either).

The strength of the reapers come from their shields and the ability to indoctrinate populations to do their work form them. Get beneath the shields, and they're looking at a world of hurt (as much as they can feel pain, that is).

Alternatively, the shields can be overloaded by concentrated fire, but we don't know yet how much is needed of that once the citadel races pulls out the dreadnoughts to enter the game (so far, the only dreadnought to have even been in the same battle as a reaper was the destiny ascension, and it never actually engaged Sovereign, but were busy with picking up the council while fending off Geth).

From the data we have been able to get so far from the games, the reapers aren't as immortal and imposing as you appearantly think. They have distinct tactical limitations that can be utilized, as long as you do combat "the alliance way" (as in following their doctrine) and not just try to face off with their entire fleet, one race at a time like a bull heading for the distraction.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 26 juin 2011 - 03:15 .

[Dexi]

Biggest weapon the Reapers usually have is the surprise element. Cutting off communications, trade and general travel and being able to pick their targets, slowly but efficiently wiping out the systems.

Now, no element of surprise. They need to take it the slow way, no access to the Citadel, free communication and collaboration between the races.
The Galaxy has +2000 years worth technology. The Reaper invasion should have happened with the Rachni War ( more than 2000 years before ME3).

Galactic diversity means the Reapers must import different tactics when facing different races...

All these, + Shepard = Reapers will have a hard time around this cycle. 

Modifié par Dexi, 26 juin 2011 - 03:32 .

[Naughty Bear]

The Reapers are massive and with the massive tentacles they, surely a massive Reaper could pick or a small asteroid or two and fling it at a planet, or nudge a Mass Relay into a planet and send that planet to some random system, hopefully launching the planet into another planet.

[hwf]

The "Escape from Earth" gameplay demo at E3 showed how a landed Reaper took care of an Alliance cruiser in just three short, calculated and precise streams of plasma.
That is a well maintained top-of-the-line military cruiser.
Destroyed. Presumably with a secondary weapon because it was a landed Reaper - so those tentacles we saw slicing entire cruisers in half at the end of ME1 were actually used for walking.

I'm guessing that at best the Flotilla'll be a distraction of several minutes, if that.
As for the Armada? Well, you can see what Reapers do to military cruisers. Dreadnaughts are just bigger bricks.

[ZLurps]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Why do people assume the migrant fleet is full of fighters? They're 300 years old and falling apart Tali even says so. Any way no, the reapers would decimate them. Did you see the fleet behind Harbinger? That was bigger than anything we've seen yet and those are all as strong as Sovereign, presumably.

Sovereign didn't exactly participate much in the combat in the battle fo the citadel. The geth fleet took most of the brunt of actual combat while Sovereign just speeded along into the citadel and hid under the arms that closed behind it.

Why are people ignoring this fact when commenting ont he battle of the citadel? The heretics were the ones that did most of the killing and dying. Sovereign didn't do any actuall battle (aside ramming through a ship) untill Shepard opened up the arms again, and even then it was still just acting like a sitting duck taking hits to the shields only throwing out an ocasional beam.

Looking at a video on youtube about the battle, I can only see 3 confirmed kills by Sovereign. 1 by ramming, 2 by beaming after the arms open again. Otherwise Sovereign just sat there and took the shots "like a man" most of the battle.

The heretics did most of the actual damage to citadel/alliance fleet in the battle.

That same reaper you are dissing also decimated the Alliance fleet while CRIPPLED. That reaper could not move from that tower, and could only fire where its tentacles could point. It also absorbed the fire of the entire Alliance fleet without slowing. 

Now imagine that reaper unshackled. The geth bore the brunt of the citadel attack, but that does not mean sovvy is a pushover.

In fact, I bet one reaper free in space could wipe out any fleet in the known galaxy. They can make manuevers that would shear the normandy in half (a very manueverable ship) in ATMOSPHERE, it has more than enough speed to back up said movement, has the firepower to take down cruisers in one shot... and can fire from multiple tentacles.

Now that Thanix cannon is an untested variable, but how widespread is that tech?

It blasted 2, TWO ships before it died.

How you can twist 2 ships destroyed into the alliance fleet being DECIMATED by it is beyond me.

From what we are seeing, the reapers have powerfull shields, weak-arse armor (a single recon frigate plowed Sovereign a new one once the shield was down) and powerfull but few in numbers  and slow firing beam attack (as in we only ever see a single beam being fired, and not exactly machinegun style either).

The strength of the reapers come from their shields and the ability to indoctrinate populations to do their work form them. Get beneath the shields, and they're looking at a world of hurt (as much as they can feel pain, that is).

Alternatively, the shields can be overloaded by concentrated fire, but we don't know yet how much is needed of that once the citadel races pulls out the dreadnoughts to enter the game (so far, the only dreadnought to have even been in the same battle as a reaper was the destiny ascension, and it never actually engaged Sovereign, but were busy with picking up the council while fending off Geth).

From the data we have been able to get so far from the games, the reapers aren't as immortal and imposing as you appearantly think. They have distinct tactical limitations that can be utilized, as long as you do combat "the alliance way" (as in following their doctrine) and not just try to face off with their entire fleet, one race at a time like a bull heading for the distraction.

Funny I just watched the Citadel battle again and Sovereing rammed one ship and one shotted at least 3 more. (I don't see why one cruiser exploded, however I don't see any Geth ships in there so what else destroyed than Sovvy then?) It looked like Sovereing also fired one more time on screen but we don't get to see what happend to the target of that shot, I doubt results were anything else than one shot kill.

What comes to dreadnoughts, Sovereing was using it's tentacle beam weapons in battle of citadel, not it's main mass accelerator weapon. In ME2 we get hings that concentrated Reaper mass accelerator weapon fire can decimate planets to asteroids and dust. Only weapon comparable to in game universe is ancient mass accelerator weapon that was used against derelict Reaper in ME2.

What comes to Alliance tactics, I don't see how it could get any better for them than kind of full frontal attack that happened on Citadel and what happens when Reapers take on Earth. Dreadnoughts are less manouvarable than Reapers and they are build around their main weapon, that means they need to face towards their targets. Reapers are faster and more manouverable. The best chance to take on Reaper is when they are on fixed course towards you, in that scenario you may get your one shot, in other sensible defence scenarios you have Reapers coming from other angles too.

What comes to Thanix technology, according to codex Thanix cannon may fire reliably one in every 5 - 15 seconds depending if you take text or audio entry as canon. With that low rate of fire, Reapers never even need to use their main weapons...

One more thing. According to live action trailers, Alliance threw thousand or so ships against Reapers. I think number must include everything from dreadnoughts to carriers, single fighters, gunships and kitchen sink.
I don't recall live action trailer mentioning orbital defences, but I think the Earth would have some and other, perhaps SAM (or Surface to Orbit) kind of defence systems. Alliance fleet(s) defending Earth were however decimated.
I don't see how Quarians and Turians combined fleet would do any better, especially in space without support from any other defence systems.

Modifié par ZLurps, 26 juin 2011 - 05:09 .

[Bluko]

There is no fleet in the galaxy that could even possibly hope to fight the Reapers via conventional means and win. Simply not possible and the Reapers wouldn't allow it. The Turian Fleet has probably only survived due to it's sheer numbers. The Migrant Fleet would be lucky if it could even destroy one Reaper honestly.

[Dexi]

I'm still thinking that this cycle the Galaxy has the best shot at it.

With a big enough force, importing the right tactics, harassing, dividing and conquering, avoiding direct combat, going kamikaze ( as last resort ), doing hit and run using every ship capable of flying and every ounce of determination, the Reapers can be beaten.
Nobody says a lot will be walking out alive. The losses will be huge.

But it's better than total termination. And it is doable!

Modifié par Dexi, 26 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[ZLurps]

Dexi wrote...

I'm still thinking that this cycle the Galaxy has the best shot at it.

With a big enough force, importing the right tactics, harassing, dividing and conquering, avoiding direct combat, going kamikaze ( as last resort ), doing hit and run using every ship capable of flying and every ounce of determination, the Reapers can be beaten.
Nobody says a lot will be walking out alive. The losses will be huge.

But it's better than total termination. And it is doable!

Reapers can be defeated, nobody would buy a game that would gane over, or "Critical mission failure" as soon as you load it.

I think one key element in the beginning of ME3 is going to be time.
Time that was won in ME1 preventing the Reapers from using Citadel mass relay and locking communications and fleets in their systems.
Time again when Reapers are focused on reaping the Earth and Shepard and all galactic races try to find a way to defeat Reapers. Time to gather information, time to make research with that new information, come up with new tactics, weapons, whatever it takes to defeat Reapers.

I just hope it's going to be something more creative than virus, etc.

[Dexi]

ZLurps wrote...

I just hope it's going to be something more creative than virus, etc.

Yeah, it will be actually coming up with a battle plan good enough to make the Reaper retreat from Earth. 

[ZLurps]

Dexi wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I just hope it's going to be something more creative than virus, etc.

Yeah, it will be actually coming up with a battle plan good enough to make the Reaper retreat from Earth. 

From the top of my head I'd say Deas Ex could be something like Geth mass produced Dark Energy weapon that can be fitted in numerous spaceships fast. The Citadel races simply aren't even nearly powerful even with Thanix technology and using combined fleets.

Geth because they don't need rest, food or oxygen (entirely different thing for Geth to work on a orbital shipyard than any other species, they can also gather recources far more effeciently and from planets where it just isn't cost effective for organic species to go).

[rwilli80]

Its a mute point because we all know the Normandy will wreck the Reapers ****.

[Dexi]

No doubt the Geth will play a big role...
But its something we saw coming, it's not a Deus Ex.

And you're putting it very wrong with: "The Citadel races simply aren't even nearly powerful even with Thanix technology and using combined fleets."
Don't assume that battles should be carried face-to-face...

If there'd be a bright enough tactician in front of the combined forces ( ALL forces, including Geth, Krogan, Omega forces, Rachni, and the usual Salarian, Turian, Asari, Human) using all resources in a smart way ( Volus for trade and cash, Hanar and Elcor for support, resources - Elcor have no big trade because their economy is very well planned and they have everything they need - and industry), and importing the right tactics ( no full-front assault), then the war can be waged against the Reapers.


And this is what will happen in ME3. A deus ex machina might occur but it all resume to "we fight or we die".