241 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

EJ107 wrote...
and from what we've seen of ME3 the majority are much smaller.
 

So what you've seen a handful of Reapers and somehow, from that, you know that rest of them are small? You don't have enough data to make that kind of assumption.

[Ianamus]

atheelogos wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
and from what we've seen of ME3 the majority are much smaller.
 

So what you've seen a handful of Reapers and somehow, from that, you know that rest of them are small? You don't have enough data to make that kind of assumption.

I never said the rest are small. I said that from what we've seen so far the majority are smaller than Sovereign. All of the Reapers attacking Earth in the earth demo appeared to be smaller than Sovereign, the one I linked the picture of was smaller than Sovereign. The only large Reapers we've seen have been Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper (But it's hard to tell exactly how large it is, it could also be smaller). So yes, so far the majority we've seen have been smaller than Sovereign.

[ZLurps]

Newart wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Newart wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I just hope it's going to be something more creative than virus, etc.

Or something like Shep and his/hers crew land on Harbinger or some other "Reaper base" and then destroy it on foot, like it was in ME and ME2. Basic, "kill the boss and you win" way. That would not be fun at all, though I fear it will come to that, again.

I can't know but somehow I think that BioWare has something better than "Kill the Boss" on their mind. I think Thanix technology is going to be important. It just isn't enough (and there are one hell of logistical plothole if those were retrofitted in all battleships during couple of months there is between Arrival and ME3) but perhaps using the Dark Energy could be one possibility.

Hmm, well that Dark Energy could be really interesting.

They could just lead Reapers army in some galaxy and then use that DE to explode the sun. They would destroy teh galaxy, but I doubt even Reaper could really survive about that, at least not all of them. Then the surviving ones are lot easier to destroy.

That's one possibility. I don't
know if you have read any ME novels, but in Retribution uh... difficult to
write without spoiling the novel, but Reapers were really interested in biotics. Biotics can generate and use dark energy biologically. Somehow I don't think it's a coincidence, even I don't know how canon the novels really are though.

I guess that further understanding of dark energy and of course capability to build something, like better drive core for ships, better shields, better weapons would be of course beneficial for galactic races in battle against the Reapers.

Then, when I think about 200 Sovereign class Reapers, I wonder what would be enough... that's horrible amount of firepower, and we don't know how many like those there really are in the Reaper fleet.

[FrozenShadow]

NICKjnp wrote...

The Migrant fleet isn't all that threatening. A reaper fleet is like a fleet of tanks while the migrant fleet is like a fleet of delivery trucks. Who do you think will win?

Except if you would back every Quarian ship full of nukes and other explosives and then used them as Kamikaze fleet. That sure would beneficial, even with a lot olders ships, which are not really battle fit.

Though this idea would require that Quarian have a planet to live after their fleet is sacrificed.

[AC5]

Newart wrote...


Except if you would back every Quarian ship full of nukes and other explosives and then used them as Kamikaze fleet. That sure would beneficial, even with a lot olders ships, which are not really battle fit.

Though this idea would require that Quarian have a planet to live after their fleet is sacrificed.

That's completely unnecessary considering something as small as a Kodiak shuttle would strike with tens of thousands times more force than a dreadnought's main gun at FTL speeds.  

Modifié par AC5, 26 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[FrozenShadow]

ZLurps wrote...

That's one possibility. I don't
know if you have read any ME novels, but in Retribution uh... difficult to
write without spoiling the novel, but Reapers were really interested in biotics. Biotics can generate and use dark energy biologically. Somehow I don't think it's a coincidence, even I don't know how canon the novels really are though.

I guess that further understanding of dark energy and of course capability to build something, like better drive core for ships, better shields, better weapons would be of course beneficial for galactic races in battle against the Reapers.

Then, when I think about 200 Sovereign class Reapers, I wonder what would be enough... that's horrible amount of firepower, and we don't know how many like those there really are in the Reaper fleet.

Nope, haven't read about ME novels (doesn't have easy access for them here), but I don't care that much about spoiling (And I might be minority with this view).

Hmm, that sure is interesting and I can understand Reaper interest in biotics, especially if they haven't encountered them in previous cycles.

[FrozenShadow]

AC5 wrote...

Newart wrote...


Except if you would back every Quarian ship full of nukes and other explosives and then used them as Kamikaze fleet. That sure would beneficial, even with a lot olders ships, which are not really battle fit.

Though this idea would require that Quarian have a planet to live after their fleet is sacrificed.

That's completely unnecessary considering something as small as a Kodiak shuttle would strike with tens of thousands times more force than a dreadnoughts main gun at FTL speeds.  

Yeah, I guess one of Quarian living ship backed full of nukes could be a little overkill, but in worst case it could come to that, if they want to save the galaxy.

[NICKjnp]

It took the citadel and alliance fleets to take down one reaper. You saw how many there were at earth. And we saw that reaper at earth take out the dreadnought at alliance hq at alliance hg.

[AC5]

Newart wrote...

Yeah, I guess one of Quarian living ship backed full of nukes could be a little overkill, but in worst case it could come to that, if they want to save the galaxy.

But, thats my point people are being too fatalistic when it comes to the reapers, FTL weapons as I just mentioned can be mounted on every thing from a frigate on up, potentially on smaller things such as fighters too.

Also such weapons would push the engagement ranges to that of the entire system rather than the thousand's of km direct energy and mass accelerators are confined to. All the while being completely immune to GUARDIAN systems.

Modifié par AC5, 26 juin 2011 - 10:12 .

[atheelogos]

ZLurps wrote...

Newart wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Newart wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I just hope it's going to be something more creative than virus, etc.

Or something like Shep and his/hers crew land on Harbinger or some other "Reaper base" and then destroy it on foot, like it was in ME and ME2. Basic, "kill the boss and you win" way. That would not be fun at all, though I fear it will come to that, again.

I can't know but somehow I think that BioWare has something better than "Kill the Boss" on their mind. I think Thanix technology is going to be important. It just isn't enough (and there are one hell of logistical plothole if those were retrofitted in all battleships during couple of months there is between Arrival and ME3) but perhaps using the Dark Energy could be one possibility.

Hmm, well that Dark Energy could be really interesting.

They could just lead Reapers army in some galaxy and then use that DE to explode the sun. They would destroy teh galaxy, but I doubt even Reaper could really survive about that, at least not all of them. Then the surviving ones are lot easier to destroy.

Then, when I think about 200 Sovereign class Reapers, I wonder what would be enough... that's horrible amount of firepower, and we don't know how many like those there really are in the Reaper fleet.

More than 200. In the trailer it said thousands of ships were massing over Europe.

[atheelogos]

Newart wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

The Migrant fleet isn't all that threatening. A reaper fleet is like a fleet of tanks while the migrant fleet is like a fleet of delivery trucks. Who do you think will win?

Except if you would back every Quarian ship full of nukes and other explosives and then used them as Kamikaze fleet. That sure would beneficial

Not really... I mean come on we know for a fact that Reaper shields can stand up to Dreadnaughts fire and the rounds they fire are way stronger than nukes...

For the record nukes are actually inefficient weapons. Most of the energy they let off his lost. If I remember correctly only about 3% of the explosion actually does any harm.

Thats 1940s tech against Reapers who have been around for millions if not billions of years. Their tech is just better.

[rwilli80]

EJ107 wrote...

People are making the mistake of assuming that all reapers are of similar size and strength to Soverein. For all we know he was the largest and most powerful, and from what we've seen of ME3 the majority are much smaller.

Just look at the one from a recent Gameplay demo:



It looks bigger without Shep in the picture for comparison, but still much smaller than Sovereign.

That thing reminds me of the Saccrub from Halo, I hate that thing.

Modifié par rwilli80, 26 juin 2011 - 11:23 .

[atheelogos]

rwilli80 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

People are making the mistake of assuming that all reapers are of similar size and strength to Soverein. For all we know he was the largest and most powerful, and from what we've seen of ME3 the majority are much smaller.

Just look at the one from a recent Gameplay demo:



It looks bigger without Shep in the picture for comparison, but still much smaller than Sovereign.

That thing reminds me of the Saccrub from Halo, I hate that thing.

Really? I loved fighting them

Modifié par atheelogos, 27 juin 2011 - 12:11 .

[BounceDK]

shepard uploads a virus, game over.

[SalsaDMA]

fett51 wrote...

Dexi wrote...
You organize suprise attacks, pick up on individual Reapers, use overwhelm tactics...

A carrier and a 4-5 cruissers can take on a Reaper. They might win, they might loose.
Odds are they'll win, for a carrier can carry ( lol ) many many fighters and some frigates. They are small and hard to hit, also, their arsenal is made for attacking large targets and crippling them ( if they are equipped with Thanix technology, their attacks bypass shielding). The cruissers are there to take the hit.

Couple issues with carriers: Per the codex carriers are the size of dreadnaughts (meaning there probably aren't many) and they're extremely fragile.  The codex had Sovereign's main gun taking down dreadnaught barriers in one hit, and we saw what its thanixes did to the Alliance Cruisers.  I wouldn't put good odds on a carrier surviving an engagement with a Reaper unless it's behind a lot more ships than that.  The mass fighter part may work, we don't know how good Reaper GARDIAN systems are, or if they have interceptors (Oculus seemed geared to engage larger targets).  How to deploy the fighters would be a pretty big issue though. 

You're actually wrong on this one.

Go read it again. The codex data on sovereign is assumptions based on incomplete data. it even states that the "ship" is asumed to possible be a Geth design. The codex state that the length of the sovereign would indicate a spinal mounted weapon running the entire length of the ship would be able to take down a dreadnoughts shield in one shot.

The entire entry is intentionally vague so as not to spoil anything for people that haven't completed the game yet and reading it while still playing the game.

The spinal mounted weapon doesn't seem to hold true for reapers. I don't recall a single incident where such a weapon is fired from any of the footage we have access to so far. Meaning that the power of reaper beams are not tied to this particular detail, but purely to whatever power the writers think is plotrelevant.

As far as the assault on earth reaper shooting up a ship in "x amount of shots", people need to realize we are talking about a scripted event there. The ship won't blow up untill Shepard is in a position where the resulting explosion would move him to the next part of the level. You cannot use the incident as any indication of the level of power from the beams of reapers.

And finally, the DOCTRINE of the alliance fleet is to avoid engagements where they are outclassed and instead regroup with other forces to get superior numbers and superior targeting ability. The primary strength of the alliance fleet is mobility and the ability to act in a tactical scheme that is more about hitting weak targets with superior numbers. Using the fleet in a way that is the exact opposite of what it was designed as would be extremely stupid, and I just cannot see the alliance fleet as putting its fleet up against an unknown enemy force in a move that is against their own doctrine, unless the writers decided to do a pisspoor job of staying consistent with lore. Hopefully they didn't, which would mean only a recon detachment of the systems alliance fleet would suffer destructions while the real fleet regrouped and awaited reinforcements from other races (enter Shepard to get them).

Systems Alliance seems to use some form of adoption of Sun Tzu's "art of war" and just "slugging it out" with no intel against superior forces would be nothing like what they fight like if they follow their doctrines.

[SalsaDMA]

AC5 wrote...

Newart wrote...


Except if you would back every Quarian ship full of nukes and other explosives and then used them as Kamikaze fleet. That sure would beneficial, even with a lot olders ships, which are not really battle fit.

Though this idea would require that Quarian have a planet to live after their fleet is sacrificed.

That's completely unnecessary considering something as small as a Kodiak shuttle would strike with tens of thousands times more force than a dreadnought's main gun at FTL speeds.  

From what I get of the codex, it gets prohibitly expensive to utilize larger 'vessels' as ftl weapons. Basicly, you'd need to attach a mass effect core to the vessel itself when you get above a certain size (and considering the first alliance class dreadnought could only fire as small slugs as it did with it its main gun, the 'critical mass' for when you need to attach a mass effect core to the vessel comes pretty fast).

It's a weird conundrum, though, cause while it is stated that the mass effect cores to make ships are pretty expensive, we never get any real indications of how many ships there actually exists in the fleets, and thus how prohibitive it actually IS to attach Mass effect cores to weapons themselves.

[SalsaDMA]

atheelogos wrote...

Newart wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

The Migrant fleet isn't all that threatening. A reaper fleet is like a fleet of tanks while the migrant fleet is like a fleet of delivery trucks. Who do you think will win?

Except if you would back every Quarian ship full of nukes and other explosives and then used them as Kamikaze fleet. That sure would beneficial

Not really... I mean come on we know for a fact that Reaper shields can stand up to Dreadnaughts fire and the rounds they fire are way stronger than nukes...

For the record nukes are actually inefficient weapons. Most of the energy they let off his lost. If I remember correctly only about 3% of the explosion actually does any harm.

Thats 1940s tech against Reapers who have been around for millions if not billions of years. Their tech is just better.

???

Since you state this "fact", what source are you claiming where we get evidence of a dreadnought (from any race) firing at a reaper?

And your comment on the power of nukes is fun. As if nukes had a single point of power. Even the 2 nukes dropped in WW2 had different powerlevels...

[Dexi]

fett51 wrote...

Dexi wrote...
You organize suprise attacks, pick up on individual Reapers, use overwhelm tactics...

A carrier and a 4-5 cruissers can take on a Reaper. They might win, they might loose.
Odds are they'll win, for a carrier can carry ( lol ) many many fighters and some frigates. They are small and hard to hit, also, their arsenal is made for attacking large targets and crippling them ( if they are equipped with Thanix technology, their attacks bypass shielding). The cruissers are there to take the hit.

Couple issues with carriers: Per the codex carriers are the size of dreadnaughts (meaning there probably aren't many) and they're extremely fragile.  The codex had Sovereign's main gun taking down dreadnaught barriers in one hit, and we saw what its thanixes did to the Alliance Cruisers.  I wouldn't put good odds on a carrier surviving an engagement with a Reaper unless it's behind a lot more ships than that.   

Where have I stated that there should be an interest in the carrier surviving the encounter with the Reaper. 
It's clear ( as I already stated) that losses will be huge! So to hell with surviving, I just want that carrier to make sure the Reaper blows with it. 

That's the point. That's the kind of sacrifice that is needed to kill the Reapers. 
People, probably being used with other war stories, assume that a victory must be showcased not really as a hard one, though from say-to-say it might seem so... 

If 2-3 persons of each race survives after the attack, then it's mission accomplished. 


People also assume Reapers have a main gun. From what I've seen so far from the Reapers, IT'S FALSE! 

The Reaper arsenal consists of the tentacle lazers. Why? Presumably, a ship could withstand a main gun fire because a ship might carry strong enough shields. But the lazers ( that aren't really lazers) bypass shields.

From what we've seen the Reapers like close fights.

Also, we haven't seen what a dreadnoughts gun can do to a Reaper. But seeing how a relatively small Reaper rebooted after an orbital strike, I don't think it would do more than cripple it for a brief period of time. 

Of course, it's safe to assume a volley could do some impressive damage on a single Reaper. 
But then you might think that it's no good. You'd think that because, AGAIN, you'd imagine a straight fight between the Reaper fleet and the Milky. 

Again, I make this point, THAT IS NOT THE CASE. 


I want to go on and assume that a carrier, a dreadnought and a couple of cruissers can have a fair chance against a medium class Reaper.  Not saying it would be a flawless victory or at least an easy one. 

No good, you'd think again, but you'd again imagine a straight fight. NOT THE CASE.

As we know, the Reapers spread their forces on the main hubs of the Galaxy. 

Reapers, even though they are powerful, even them cannot withstand overwhelm tactics. 

The point is... a Galactic Fleet could take on the Reapers attacking only a planet, they'd simply be overwhelmed and, if done in a surprise manner, they could easily pick up smaller packs of Reapers. The Migrant Fleet has 50.000 shops, even though not all can fire, they can be used as cannon-fodder. The geth probably have a huge fleet too. Alliance has lots and lots of cruissers, Turians have lotsa dreadnoughts, Asari and Salarian forces are quite capable too. 
The sheer numbers are incredible, big enough to take Earth back in a surprise attack. 

AND THAT IS THE POINT. That what's ME3 is all about. 

How do you eliberate the others? In a similar fashion. Move as a whole and pick each Reaper gathering one by one. If they bring in reinforcements, quick disperse. 
If they gather up for a face-to-face combat, disperse... even better, if they're all in a spot they're just one huge target, so ram a dreadnought into the Mass Relay at FTL speed. 

Modifié par Dexi, 27 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[Nomarch]

And finally, the DOCTRINE of the alliance fleet is to avoid engagements where they are outclassed and instead regroup with other forces to get superior numbers and superior targeting ability. The primary strength of the alliance fleet is mobility and the ability to act in a tactical scheme that is more about hitting weak targets with superior numbers. Using the fleet in a way that is the exact opposite of what it was designed as would be extremely stupid, and I just cannot see the alliance fleet as putting its fleet up against an unknown enemy force in a move that is against their own doctrine, unless the writers decided to do a pisspoor job of staying consistent with lore. Hopefully they didn't, which would mean only a recon detachment of the systems alliance fleet would suffer destructions while the real fleet regrouped and awaited reinforcements from other races (enter Shepard to get them).

Systems Alliance seems to use some form of adoption of Sun Tzu's "art of war" and just "slugging it out" with no intel against superior forces would be nothing like what they fight like if they follow their doctrines.

And unfortunately, this is completely useless against the Reapers.  The point of hit-and-run, implies that you have a place to run back to and resupply and rearm.  And you seem to be talking about warships as if they are infantry, a little food, some ammo, a place to sleep, and you're all good.  Warships need parts, ammo, food, water, air, and fuel to keep them going.  And you don't get those without a shipyard.  And shipyards are static emplacements.  So while the Alliance fleet, or anybody else "hits-and-runs," the Reapers move in, blow the shipyards to hell, and the war is over, whether its a glorious last stand or a slow lingering death.  Warships are not infantry and you simply cannot play hit and
run if it costs you your shipyards and supply line.  The fleets HAVE to
defend those static emplacements, bringing them into the exact
engagements they don't want to fight.

Or, let's get nasty and remember indoctrination.  Reapers hit Earth, damaging the fleet in orbit.  Following Alliance procedures, it stays mobile and falls back.  Reapers land on earth and start indoctrinating as many people as they can.  Once they've done enough, they stage a war between their indoctrinated thralls who are happy to die in the feint, making it look like the Reapers have been kicked off world by the survivors.  The ships come back for much needed repairs and resupply, and are bombed in the yards by the indoctrinated populace.  Or even nastier, those "repairs" install Reaper-tech in the ships and indoctrinate the crews, allowing them to surprise the fleets of other races when their "allies" show up.  And if this doesn't happen on Earth, it happens elsewhere.  And remember, a tiny fraction of the galaxy is explored by the Council.  The Reapers could say "screw this" head into the wilds to indoctrinate races who haven't encountered the galactic community yet, indoctrinate them, use them as inexhaustible slave-labor to create an armada armed with Reaper tech in a few short years, and then come rolling in.

Short of the mother of all Deus ex Machina's I'm not sure how the Reapers get beaten if they are played as even remotely intelligent.

[S.A.K]

AC5 wrote...

Newart wrote...


Except if you would back every Quarian ship full of nukes and other explosives and then used them as Kamikaze fleet. That sure would beneficial, even with a lot olders ships, which are not really battle fit.

Though this idea would require that Quarian have a planet to live after their fleet is sacrificed.

That's completely unnecessary considering something as small as a Kodiak shuttle would strike with tens of thousands times more force than a dreadnought's main gun at FTL speeds.  

Hmm thats an idea. I can see the Migrant fleet shooting shuttles at reapers at FTL speeds.

[medcsu]

Dont forget about the Geth fleet. As powerful as the Turian Navy is, my money is on the Geth armady to be the most powerful, non Reaper, Navy in ME.

[Dexi]

Nomarch wrote...

And finally, the DOCTRINE of the alliance fleet is to avoid engagements where they are outclassed and instead regroup with other forces to get superior numbers and superior targeting ability. The primary strength of the alliance fleet is mobility and the ability to act in a tactical scheme that is more about hitting weak targets with superior numbers. Using the fleet in a way that is the exact opposite of what it was designed as would be extremely stupid, and I just cannot see the alliance fleet as putting its fleet up against an unknown enemy force in a move that is against their own doctrine, unless the writers decided to do a pisspoor job of staying consistent with lore. Hopefully they didn't, which would mean only a recon detachment of the systems alliance fleet would suffer destructions while the real fleet regrouped and awaited reinforcements from other races (enter Shepard to get them).

Systems Alliance seems to use some form of adoption of Sun Tzu's "art of war" and just "slugging it out" with no intel against superior forces would be nothing like what they fight like if they follow their doctrines.

And unfortunately, this is completely useless against the Reapers.  The point of hit-and-run, implies that you have a place to run back to and resupply and rearm.  And you seem to be talking about warships as if they are infantry, a little food, some ammo, a place to sleep, and you're all good.  Warships need parts, ammo, food, water, air, and fuel to keep them going.  And you don't get those without a shipyard.  And shipyards are static emplacements.  So while the Alliance fleet, or anybody else "hits-and-runs," the Reapers move in, blow the shipyards to hell, and the war is over, whether its a glorious last stand or a slow lingering death.  Warships are not infantry and you simply cannot play hit and
run if it costs you your shipyards and supply line.  The fleets HAVE to
defend those static emplacements, bringing them into the exact
engagements they don't want to fight.

Or, let's get nasty and remember indoctrination.  Reapers hit Earth, damaging the fleet in orbit.  Following Alliance procedures, it stays mobile and falls back.  Reapers land on earth and start indoctrinating as many people as they can.  Once they've done enough, they stage a war between their indoctrinated thralls who are happy to die in the feint, making it look like the Reapers have been kicked off world by the survivors.  The ships come back for much needed repairs and resupply, and are bombed in the yards by the indoctrinated populace.  Or even nastier, those "repairs" install Reaper-tech in the ships and indoctrinate the crews, allowing them to surprise the fleets of other races when their "allies" show up.  And if this doesn't happen on Earth, it happens elsewhere.  And remember, a tiny fraction of the galaxy is explored by the Council.  The Reapers could say "screw this" head into the wilds to indoctrinate races who haven't encountered the galactic community yet, indoctrinate them, use them as inexhaustible slave-labor to create an armada armed with Reaper tech in a few short years, and then come rolling in.

Short of the mother of all Deus ex Machina's I'm not sure how the Reapers get beaten if they are played as even remotely intelligent.

One flaw to your idea. 
Indoctrination would mean dumbing that population down, they couldn't do what you said... repair and stuff.
The most they can do with them is more husks. But I don't see how husks can help in space-battle... Maybe launching them or something rofl... 

[Nomarch]

Dexi wrote...

Nomarch wrote...

And finally, the DOCTRINE of the alliance fleet is to avoid engagements where they are outclassed and instead regroup with other forces to get superior numbers and superior targeting ability. The primary strength of the alliance fleet is mobility and the ability to act in a tactical scheme that is more about hitting weak targets with superior numbers. Using the fleet in a way that is the exact opposite of what it was designed as would be extremely stupid, and I just cannot see the alliance fleet as putting its fleet up against an unknown enemy force in a move that is against their own doctrine, unless the writers decided to do a pisspoor job of staying consistent with lore. Hopefully they didn't, which would mean only a recon detachment of the systems alliance fleet would suffer destructions while the real fleet regrouped and awaited reinforcements from other races (enter Shepard to get them).

Systems Alliance seems to use some form of adoption of Sun Tzu's "art of war" and just "slugging it out" with no intel against superior forces would be nothing like what they fight like if they follow their doctrines.

And unfortunately, this is completely useless against the Reapers.  The point of hit-and-run, implies that you have a place to run back to and resupply and rearm.  And you seem to be talking about warships as if they are infantry, a little food, some ammo, a place to sleep, and you're all good.  Warships need parts, ammo, food, water, air, and fuel to keep them going.  And you don't get those without a shipyard.  And shipyards are static emplacements.  So while the Alliance fleet, or anybody else "hits-and-runs," the Reapers move in, blow the shipyards to hell, and the war is over, whether its a glorious last stand or a slow lingering death.  Warships are not infantry and you simply cannot play hit and
run if it costs you your shipyards and supply line.  The fleets HAVE to
defend those static emplacements, bringing them into the exact
engagements they don't want to fight.

Or, let's get nasty and remember indoctrination.  Reapers hit Earth, damaging the fleet in orbit.  Following Alliance procedures, it stays mobile and falls back.  Reapers land on earth and start indoctrinating as many people as they can.  Once they've done enough, they stage a war between their indoctrinated thralls who are happy to die in the feint, making it look like the Reapers have been kicked off world by the survivors.  The ships come back for much needed repairs and resupply, and are bombed in the yards by the indoctrinated populace.  Or even nastier, those "repairs" install Reaper-tech in the ships and indoctrinate the crews, allowing them to surprise the fleets of other races when their "allies" show up.  And if this doesn't happen on Earth, it happens elsewhere.  And remember, a tiny fraction of the galaxy is explored by the Council.  The Reapers could say "screw this" head into the wilds to indoctrinate races who haven't encountered the galactic community yet, indoctrinate them, use them as inexhaustible slave-labor to create an armada armed with Reaper tech in a few short years, and then come rolling in.

Short of the mother of all Deus ex Machina's I'm not sure how the Reapers get beaten if they are played as even remotely intelligent.

One flaw to your idea. 
Indoctrination would mean dumbing that population down, they couldn't do what you said... repair and stuff.
The most they can do with them is more husks. But I don't see how husks can help in space-battle... Maybe launching them or something rofl... 

Saren, Matriarch Benezia, and the lady from the last DLC were all totally indoctrinated and fully functional to the point of being able to deceive others about their allegiances.  There is a difference between husks and the indoctrinated.

[Dexi]

Nomarch wrote...

Dexi wrote...

Nomarch wrote...

And finally, the DOCTRINE of the alliance fleet is to avoid engagements where they are outclassed and instead regroup with other forces to get superior numbers and superior targeting ability. The primary strength of the alliance fleet is mobility and the ability to act in a tactical scheme that is more about hitting weak targets with superior numbers. Using the fleet in a way that is the exact opposite of what it was designed as would be extremely stupid, and I just cannot see the alliance fleet as putting its fleet up against an unknown enemy force in a move that is against their own doctrine, unless the writers decided to do a pisspoor job of staying consistent with lore. Hopefully they didn't, which would mean only a recon detachment of the systems alliance fleet would suffer destructions while the real fleet regrouped and awaited reinforcements from other races (enter Shepard to get them).

Systems Alliance seems to use some form of adoption of Sun Tzu's "art of war" and just "slugging it out" with no intel against superior forces would be nothing like what they fight like if they follow their doctrines.

And unfortunately, this is completely useless against the Reapers.  The point of hit-and-run, implies that you have a place to run back to and resupply and rearm.  And you seem to be talking about warships as if they are infantry, a little food, some ammo, a place to sleep, and you're all good.  Warships need parts, ammo, food, water, air, and fuel to keep them going.  And you don't get those without a shipyard.  And shipyards are static emplacements.  So while the Alliance fleet, or anybody else "hits-and-runs," the Reapers move in, blow the shipyards to hell, and the war is over, whether its a glorious last stand or a slow lingering death.  Warships are not infantry and you simply cannot play hit and
run if it costs you your shipyards and supply line.  The fleets HAVE to
defend those static emplacements, bringing them into the exact
engagements they don't want to fight.

Or, let's get nasty and remember indoctrination.  Reapers hit Earth, damaging the fleet in orbit.  Following Alliance procedures, it stays mobile and falls back.  Reapers land on earth and start indoctrinating as many people as they can.  Once they've done enough, they stage a war between their indoctrinated thralls who are happy to die in the feint, making it look like the Reapers have been kicked off world by the survivors.  The ships come back for much needed repairs and resupply, and are bombed in the yards by the indoctrinated populace.  Or even nastier, those "repairs" install Reaper-tech in the ships and indoctrinate the crews, allowing them to surprise the fleets of other races when their "allies" show up.  And if this doesn't happen on Earth, it happens elsewhere.  And remember, a tiny fraction of the galaxy is explored by the Council.  The Reapers could say "screw this" head into the wilds to indoctrinate races who haven't encountered the galactic community yet, indoctrinate them, use them as inexhaustible slave-labor to create an armada armed with Reaper tech in a few short years, and then come rolling in.

Short of the mother of all Deus ex Machina's I'm not sure how the Reapers get beaten if they are played as even remotely intelligent.

One flaw to your idea. 
Indoctrination would mean dumbing that population down, they couldn't do what you said... repair and stuff.
The most they can do with them is more husks. But I don't see how husks can help in space-battle... Maybe launching them or something rofl... 

Saren, Matriarch Benezia, and the lady from the last DLC were all totally indoctrinated and fully functional to the point of being able to deceive others about their allegiances.  There is a difference between husks and the indoctrinated.

Read codex. Indoctrinated people go dumb. 
Saren was indoctrinated but until to the point logical conclusion met with indoctrination. He wasn't doing Sovereign's bidding just because, he was doing it with a reason. 

"Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant."

EDIT: + "But as Saren Arterius discovered during his research into indoctrination at the facility, there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become. Saren realized that to keep his mind free of Sovereign's control, he had to make himself an invaluable resource. He believed that Sovereign would allow him a reprieve from indoctrination, because the Reaper needed Saren's mind intact to find the Conduit."

Modifié par Dexi, 27 juin 2011 - 06:31 .